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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Update: Jade Raymond joins Google as Vice President | Rumor: Google's gaming console details leaked, possible controller design revealed via patent

zero129 said:
Chazore said:

Also, if they're locked to just that console and won't be sold on PC, that'd be such an amazing way for SEGA to actively shoot both their feet in terms of alienating support from not only the other consoles, but PC as well. It'll be like Epic all over again. 

That would be worse. At least with Epic you can install the store on your PC and still play the game. Console Exclusives keeps the game away from PC all together unless you go and spend whatever to buy the console.

Well since Epic did it with their billions and considering that Google is richer and wants to sell a console like everyone else, I could easily se them pulling that, and I doubt Sega would say no to a moneyhat. 



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That controller style looks like someone took the modern controller style and recreated into a retro 80's controller that looks very uncomfortable to hold.



BraLoD said:
The_Liquid_Laser said:
A lot of buzz this year about new consoles. Obviously Microsoft and Sony are preparing for something soon. Now Google is throwing their hat in.

The thing about console gaming is that it seems to have only supported 3 home consoles at a time:
Gen 3: Nintendo, Sega, Atari
Gen 4: Nintendo, Sega, NEC
Gen 5: Nintendo, Sega, Sony
Gen 6: Nintendo, Sony, Sega/Microsoft*
Gen 7-8: Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft

There is always just 3. (*In gen 6, Sega left about the time Microsoft came in.) If Google comes in, then it is likely that someone else will have to leave. Of course this could just be Google themselves. I mean Ouya technically was a thing, but never really gained traction. Google could end up being a similar footnote in gaming history. They could also kick Microsoft out of the market. There is also a chance they kick Sony out, if the stars align against Sony (i.e. they screw up PS5 like they did PS3). Nintendo is the only one 100% safe, because they are the only one selling to handheld gamers.

Looks like the home console market is going to have some serious competition this time around.

Atari was not relevant during gen 3 at all. Neither was Sega outside of Brazil and some EU contries.

PC engine was relevant only in Japan, TurboGrafix is probably still unkown to a lot of people here. It was basically non existent outside of Japan.

Gen 5 also had Sega losing all its relevance to gain some on Japan alone.

Gen 6 PS2 was the only relevant system.

Gen 7 is where 3 major systems became relevant.

Gen 8 it also went back to 2, with Nintendo going full handheld focused.

I get where you are coming from, but console gaming has always been pretty one sided or two companies fighting for it.

Gen 3: NES 62M, MS 17M (no comparision)

Gen 4: SNES 49M, MD 40M (first competitive gen, only two sides tho)

Gen 5: PS1: 104M, N64: 33M (no comparision)

Gen 6: PS2: 157M, anything else less than 25M (no comparision)

Gen 7: Wii: 101M, PS3: 87M, 360: 86M (first three sided competition)

Gen 8: (so far) PS4: 93M, XBO: 41M (no competition, though XBO still has most of PS4 support)

Most gens we have one system selling more than double their closest competition, console gaming is usually pretty one sided, I don't see this gen having more than 2 actual competitors.

You make a good point.  Your point is entirely about market share though.

What I was really referring to was profit more than market share.  If companies are going to stay in the console business what really matters is profit.  There is only so much profit potential to go around.  At most the market can support 3 console makers and even then 1-2 of them are often unprofitable.  Then the unprofitable companies either decide it isn't worth it (like NEC) or they stay around for another generation hoping that things will turn around.  In the worst case they might even be forced out (like Sega) because they are financially in terrible shape.  When you look at profit, the most lopsided generation was actually generation 7, because Nintendo made rediculous amounts of profit while Sony and Microsoft both took heavy losses.  But both Sony and Microsoft decided to stay with it in hopes of turning things around.

So now Google is entering the market.  I just don't think there is enough profit potential to support 4 companies.  One of them will get spanked so badly that they will have to leave.  That very well could just be Google themselves though.



Mnementh said:
shikamaru317 said:

(1) According to rumors, that is Google's plan, they plan to gun for Microsoft's spot. That is also reportedly why Microsoft's Satya Nadella gave the Xbox division a much bigger budget last year, which they have used to purchase multiple 1st party studios, Microsoft knows that Google is gunning for Xbox and they plan to fight them off. Google doesn't plan to give up without a fight though it seems, there are rumors of them buying 1st party studios as well, and now we have this rumor that they plan to moneyhat some 3rd party exclusives from older, dormant IP's, including several dormant Sega IP's. 

(2) I suspect that the rumored Microsoft-Nintendo partnership is because of the rumors of Google entering the market as well, Microsoft and Nintendo know they are stronger together if Google guns for either of them.

(3) It is also worth noting that MS and Google aren't just fighting a console battle this gen, they are also playing the long game, with both of them introducing their streaming services, Microsoft's xCloud and Google's Project Stream. They are both laying the groundwork for future gaming generations after traditional consoles die, as internet infrastructure improves more and more people are going to be moving toward streaming, and both MS and Google want to make sure that they will be the market leader when it comes to game streaming services. Amazon is reportedly working on a game streaming service as well, they intend to battle it out with MS and Google in that market as well. Google designing a console is more about pulling people into their gaming ecosystem and towards their streaming service than it is about actually competing against the other consoles.

(1) Oh, so there is blood in the water. That's good for gamers. If the competition has the knifes out, they tend to compete strongly for consumers wallets.

(2) I personally would love Nintendo and MS to work more closely together. Still I don't see it from the current rumours. Only that they not walking over each others toes.

(3) This could mean Google intends to stay longer (and so is MS) and they are willing to take losses. Again, good thing for us consumers, as we probably get more games out of this.

The_Liquid_Laser said:
A lot of buzz this year about new consoles. Obviously Microsoft and Sony are preparing for something soon. Now Google is throwing their hat in.

The thing about console gaming is that it seems to have only supported 3 home consoles at a time:
Gen 3: Nintendo, Sega, Atari
Gen 4: Nintendo, Sega, NEC
Gen 5: Nintendo, Sega, Sony
Gen 6: Nintendo, Sony, Sega/Microsoft*
Gen 7-8: Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft

There is always just 3. (*In gen 6, Sega left about the time Microsoft came in.) If Google comes in, then it is likely that someone else will have to leave. Of course this could just be Google themselves. I mean Ouya technically was a thing, but never really gained traction. Google could end up being a similar footnote in gaming history. They could also kick Microsoft out of the market. There is also a chance they kick Sony out, if the stars align against Sony (i.e. they screw up PS5 like they did PS3). Nintendo is the only one 100% safe, because they are the only one selling to handheld gamers.

Looks like the home console market is going to have some serious competition this time around.

I am not agreeing. You leave out the first two gens, which were a pretty convoluted mess. You conviniently forget the 3DO, the Apple Pippin, the PC-FX, the NeoGeo or the Atari Jaguar. Well, N64, PS1, Saturn, Pippin, Jaguar, PC-FX and 3do in one generation would pretty much shatter your theory. But you could argue that less consoles were relevant. But this also means the Atari 7800 in third gen or the PCEngine (TurboGrafx) and Supergrafx in fourth gen wouldn't make the cut. The reality is more, that the market sustains only few relevant consoles, but others always try. Sometimes it works, like for MS and Sony. I would even argue Sony grew the market (with opening up the european market and expanding in more countries in the world) so that in the long run it could sustain three consoles. Maybe somethign similar happens. With China and India possibly becoming strong markets maybe a fourth competitor is sustainable.

 

My point is that the market has always sustained at most 3 relevant consoles.  (And yes NEC did have a relevant console.  The SNES was released because the PC-Engine was selling well in Japan.)  After that there is just not enough profit to go around.

Now you may have a point in that if enough new territories open up, then there may be enough customers to go around.  But in practice it tends not to happen this way.  In practice one console ends up being dominant worldwide.  The PS2 was successful everywhere, so was the Wii and so is the PS4.  That leaves the other two competitors fighting over the scraps.  I don't think there are enough scraps to sustain another competitor entering the market.



Well i'm set in my old ways now, so won't be getting it lol.

To the young ones, if you do venture, hopefully it will be worth it.



 

 

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BraLoD said:
OTBWY said:

Sorry but, I like my thumbs on the things we use most. A stick on the left and face buttons of the right. So offset is the way to go. The dualshock is crabclaw, so if you like that I think you're blatantly biased against humans.

That makes no sense.

Both analogs function together to allow movement of character and camera, using both at the same time at the same position is the most logical way to navegation.

Since we entered the 3D era that is the biggest aspect of gaming, 3D movimentation.

Offset analogs only exists because Sony was the first to do dual analog and made it right from the beginning and had it patented, which made other companies have to do something else.

Exactly. And this goes tenfold when talking about 1st person shooters.  Sony got it so right, pretty much every controller since as copied the design, but with their own small alterations.

However, MS changed the design further for the Xbox, offsetting the sticks. Fans of the brand prefer it, not because its better, but because it is synonymous with that brand.  



How hilarious would it be if it was leaked later that Google came to this decision as payback for Microsoft entering their turf (Bing, Bing maps, Windows phone)?

Lately, Microsoft has stepped away from Google's markets and focused more on working with the developer's community (cloud based services, sql server and visual studio on other platforms, embracing open source). I wasn't expecting Google to be going into their markets.



OTBWY said:
thismeintiel said:

Exactly.  Just like our actual hands.  The truth is the offset was only done to differentiate itself from the Dual Shock, so as to not seem like a ripoff.  Fans of the Xbox just grabbed onto the design, making poor excuses to why it is superior.  Even Nintendo went back to symmetrical for the Wii and Wii U Pro controllers.  I think they only went offset this gen was to keep it the same as the handheld, something they had to do for 2-player mode with the Joy-cons.

The truth is either will work just fine.  But, anyone who is actually anti-symmetry, symmetry being what are bodies are built off of, are just showing their blatant bias for a brand/company.

@ OP

I just don't see this succeeding.  I mean, I guess they might take MS's spot for 3rd.  That will all depend on the HW and SW.  Somehow, I don't see them competing directly when it comes to power.  Mainly because they are going to want to be cautious about entering the market.  I doubt they will mass order millions of these until they are proven to be a success, which lowers discounts for bulk orders.  I also doubt they want to adopt Sony's strategy of losing money on the HW out of the gate, so will only get the HW that will have them make a small profit or at least break even.  So, I would guess the power is going to fall in between the base model and high-end model of the XB2.

AS for SW, if Google does not bring their AAA game, unlike MS did this gen, then they will find themselves in the exact same spot.  HW doesn't just sell itself, like many other consoles have proven.  You need a constant flow of high quality exclusives, as well as the vast majority of all 3rd party games.  On both HW and SW, Sony is going to be a very tough competitor to beat.  Even with the mountains of money MS has, they showed that Sony has to utterly screw themselves over for you to even have a shot.  And even then, MS came in behind them.

Sorry but, I like my thumbs on the things we use most. A stick on the left and face buttons of the right. So offset is the way to go. The dualshock is crabclaw, so if you like that I think you're blatantly biased against humans.

Both options of analog stick work great, but, imho, Dualshock symmetrical desing got one major advantage in games. The possibility of using the Claw grip technique on the D-pad, i realy like to use it while playing games like dark souls, monster hunter or any other game that need quick access to d-pad. On such games the offset stick realy fell like a major flaw.



BraLoD said:
OTBWY said:

Sorry but, I like my thumbs on the things we use most. A stick on the left and face buttons of the right. So offset is the way to go. The dualshock is crabclaw, so if you like that I think you're blatantly biased against humans.

That makes no sense.

Both analogs function together to allow movement of character and camera, using both at the same time at the same position is the most logical way to navegation.

Since we entered the 3D era that is the biggest aspect of gaming, 3D movimentation.

Offset analogs only exists because Sony was the first to do dual analog and made it right from the beginning and had it patented, which made other companies have to do something else.

Sorry but that is some janky logic. In the 3D era, our left stick is the primary control option for movement. You thumb should be on it most of the time. But because how it was placed on the PS controller, was due to keeping with the formfactor, not because they thought it was super clever. Many games on the PS1 still used the d-pad prominently cause you know, the PS! first came with a controller with no sticks. We however came to find out that offset works best because we developed upon already great left thumb stick up controllers. The camera movement in all this is secondary, as many games still have facebuttons as primary controls (meaning it should be level with your left stick). The only way you can make the argument that the left and both right stick are primary is if you are talking about fps games, which in all honesty is an inferior experience on console anyway, but the dualshock makes it all the more uncomfortable with the wide reach of your thumb and your index fingers on the triggers, hence crabclaw.



The_Liquid_Laser said:
Mnementh said:

I am not agreeing. You leave out the first two gens, which were a pretty convoluted mess. You conviniently forget the 3DO, the Apple Pippin, the PC-FX, the NeoGeo or the Atari Jaguar. Well, N64, PS1, Saturn, Pippin, Jaguar, PC-FX and 3do in one generation would pretty much shatter your theory. But you could argue that less consoles were relevant. But this also means the Atari 7800 in third gen or the PCEngine (TurboGrafx) and Supergrafx in fourth gen wouldn't make the cut. The reality is more, that the market sustains only few relevant consoles, but others always try. Sometimes it works, like for MS and Sony. I would even argue Sony grew the market (with opening up the european market and expanding in more countries in the world) so that in the long run it could sustain three consoles. Maybe somethign similar happens. With China and India possibly becoming strong markets maybe a fourth competitor is sustainable.

My point is that the market has always sustained at most 3 relevant consoles.  (And yes NEC did have a relevant console.  The SNES was released because the PC-Engine was selling well in Japan.)  After that there is just not enough profit to go around.

Now you may have a point in that if enough new territories open up, then there may be enough customers to go around.  But in practice it tends not to happen this way.  In practice one console ends up being dominant worldwide.  The PS2 was successful everywhere, so was the Wii and so is the PS4.  That leaves the other two competitors fighting over the scraps.  I don't think there are enough scraps to sustain another competitor entering the market.

You are right, that even in a bigger market one competitor may sponge off all customers. But with a bigger base to begin with, it is easier to scrape off enough customers to sustain.

But there are two factors here:

1. Google probably don't expect big success in the first gen they are in. Like MS with the original XBox they are probably testing the market and looking for ways to manifest themself to be competitive a gen later. They have the cash to take the losses for one gen.

2. If the consoles are different enough, they can activate different parts of the customerbase. Nintendo already differentiates itself with the hybrid model. I think Google (if the rumours are true) might go after a service/streaming route. I also see MS doing that, even Sony, but as of now PS Now doesn't seem competitive in this field. Google though might be actually pretty good with a streaming/service console model. They know their cloud-shit.

OTBWY said:
BraLoD said:

That makes no sense.

Both analogs function together to allow movement of character and camera, using both at the same time at the same position is the most logical way to navegation.

Since we entered the 3D era that is the biggest aspect of gaming, 3D movimentation.

Offset analogs only exists because Sony was the first to do dual analog and made it right from the beginning and had it patented, which made other companies have to do something else.

Sorry but that is some janky logic. In the 3D era, our left stick is the primary control option for movement. You thumb should be on it most of the time. But because how it was placed on the PS controller, was due to keeping with the formfactor, not because they thought it was super clever. Many games on the PS1 still used the d-pad prominently cause you know, the PS! first came with a controller with no sticks. We however came to find out that offset works best because we developed upon already great left thumb stick up controllers. The camera movement in all this is secondary, as many games still have facebuttons as primary controls (meaning it should be level with your left stick). The only way you can make the argument that the left and both right stick are primary is if you are talking about fps games, which in all honesty is an inferior experience on console anyway, but the dualshock makes it all the more uncomfortable with the wide reach of your thumb and your index fingers on the triggers, hence crabclaw.

And that right there is the main reason for the symmetrical form factor in the first place. They had to cram in sticks into an existing controller-design fast. I mean, look at it, the sticks basically got added to the existing controller with new space at the controller base. There was basically no thought going into ergonomic considerations. And later they just lazily sticked with this design, instead of redesigning it more useful for the PS2.



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