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Forums - Nintendo Discussion - Among the big Japanese publishers, is Nintendo the least creatively risk-averse?

Bofferbrauer2 said:
Sahib said:

Why 2 years? Seems like an arbitrary number of years to make the comparison. how about this we do a comparison of a the current generation of consoles, i’ll Even combine Nintendo’s new IPs for both WiiU and Switch. 

Nintendo new IPs for Wii U and Switch:

Wonderful 101

Splatoon

Arms

1-2 Switch 

 Labo 

Snipperclips

 

Captain Toad

Daemon X Machina

Flip Wars

Devil's Third

NES Remix

Pushmo

Sing Party

Tokio Mirage Sessions

 

 

***Octopath Traveller is a SE IP not Nintendo, like Ryse is a Cryrek IP not MS.

 

Microsoft new IPs for XB1:

Sunset Overdrive

Quantum Break

Recore 

Sea of Thieves

Crimson Dragon

Ori and the Blind Forest

Screamride 

 

KALIMBA

 

MS has a good edge on Nintendo, although both look irrelevant compared to Sony.

 

Sony new IPs for PS4:

  1. Bloodborne Belongs to FromSoftware
  2. Horizon Zero Dawn
  3. The Last Guardian 
  4. Detroit: Become Human Belongs to Quantic Dream, not Sony
  5. Dreams
  6. Until Dawn Belongs to Supermassive Games
  7. Driveclub
  8. The Order 1886
  9. Knack
  10. Death Stranding Belongs to Kojima Productions
  11. Days Gone
  12. Ghost of Tsushima
  13. Concrete Genie
  14. The Tomorrow Children 
  15. What Remains of Edith Finch Multiplatform title
  16. Everybody's gone to the Rapture
  17. Drawn to Death
  18. Kill strain
  19. Alienation Belongs to Housemarque
  20. Matterfall Belongs to Housemarque
  21. Bound Belongs to Plastic Studios
  22. Helldivers Belongs to Arrowhead Studios
  23. Resogun Belongs to Housemarque
  24. Hohokum
  25. Guns Up Belongs to Valkyrie Entertainment
  26. Entwined
  27. CounterSpy Multiplat (also available on iOS and Android)
  28. Here They Lie Belongs to Tangentlemen
  29. Hidden Agenda Belongs to Supermassive Games
  30. Erica Flavorworks
  31. Astro Bot 
  32. RIGS
  33. Starblood Arena WhiteMoon Dreams
  34. Farpoint Impulse Gear
  35. Blood and Truth
  36. Bravo Team Couldn't find that game
  37. Deracine FromSoftware

Just completed the Nintendo List a bit more (probably still missing some)

On Sony's side, I just knew the 16 first titles, and out of those 5 do not belong to Sony, with one even being a multiplat title.

I bolded those which have been announced, but not yet released. Considering how long some games can take to make (just check the last Guardian, almost 10 years in the making) and the upcoming release of the PS5, I sorted them out because they may not release on PS4 (Concrete Genie and Dreams for instance should, Ghosts of Tsushima, not so sure)

Oh, and in italic, I noted those which are already dead or dying (meaning MMO titles which have been deactivated already or are scheduled to do so soon). I'd be pissed if I bought on of these, to be frank. They are valid entries though, just sad ones.

Half of the titles listed were actually third party titles, many of them small VR or f2p games. So that brings it down to Nintendo levels, which is much more realistic

Clearly you do not understand the concept of IP ownership, and you're inconsistent on top of it. Allow me to explain...

Wonderful 101 is a game developed by Platinum games, but is funded and owned by Nintendo. Hence it is on the list. Similarly games you crossed out citing their devs are indeed developed by a 3rd party developer but are funded and owned by Sony, yes even that multiplatform title you listed.

Proof: https://trademarks.justia.com/864/72/what-remains-of-edith-86472634.html

You can find the trademarks for other games on there as well and see who the IP belongs to, all those IP I listed are owned by Sony similar to most of the games that Nintendo puts out that are made by 3rd party devs be it Yoshi, or Kirby, or Smash Bros. or Pokemon. 

 

Secondly you seemed to have inflated Nintendo's list there by adding some more titles I see, I went ahead and took a closer look at them as I couldn't have left those out if they actually qualified:

Captain Toad -Not a new IP, it's a spin off of a character from the Mario franchise.

Daemon X Machina- Not owned by Nintendo (http://nintendo.wikia.com/wiki/Nintendo_franchises)

Flip Wars- I can't even find this...

Devil's Third- Not owned by Nintendo

NES Remix- Not even gonna look it up, just by the name I can assume this is collection of old games and can't possibly be a new IP.

Pushmo- This has been around since Wii days...

Sing Party- Ok, So I did miss one...

Tokio Mirage Sessions- I have to question if you know what a New IP even means...



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Sahib said:
Bofferbrauer2 said:

Just completed the Nintendo List a bit more (probably still missing some)

On Sony's side, I just knew the 16 first titles, and out of those 5 do not belong to Sony, with one even being a multiplat title.

I bolded those which have been announced, but not yet released. Considering how long some games can take to make (just check the last Guardian, almost 10 years in the making) and the upcoming release of the PS5, I sorted them out because they may not release on PS4 (Concrete Genie and Dreams for instance should, Ghosts of Tsushima, not so sure)

Oh, and in italic, I noted those which are already dead or dying (meaning MMO titles which have been deactivated already or are scheduled to do so soon). I'd be pissed if I bought on of these, to be frank. They are valid entries though, just sad ones.

Half of the titles listed were actually third party titles, many of them small VR or f2p games. So that brings it down to Nintendo levels, which is much more realistic

Clearly you do not understand the concept of IP ownership, and you're inconsistent on top of it. Allow me to explain...

Wonderful 101 is a game developed by Platinum games, but is funded and owned by Nintendo. Hence it is on the list. Similarly games you crossed out citing their devs are indeed developed by a 3rd party developer but are funded and owned by Sony, yes even that multiplatform title you listed.

Proof: https://trademarks.justia.com/864/72/what-remains-of-edith-86472634.html

You can find the trademarks for other games on there as well and see who the IP belongs to, all those IP I listed are owned by Sony similar to most of the games that Nintendo puts out that are made by 3rd party devs be it Yoshi, or Kirby, or Smash Bros. or Pokemon. 

 

Secondly you seemed to have inflated Nintendo's list there by adding some more titles I see, I went ahead and took a closer look at them as I couldn't have left those out if they actually qualified:

Captain Toad -Not a new IP, it's a spin off of a character from the Mario franchise.

Daemon X Machina- Not owned by Nintendo (http://nintendo.wikia.com/wiki/Nintendo_franchises)

Flip Wars- I can't even find this...

Devil's Third- Not owned by Nintendo

NES Remix- Not even gonna look it up, just by the name I can assume this is collection of old games and can't possibly be a new IP.

Pushmo- This has been around since Wii days...

Sing Party- Ok, So I did miss one...

Tokio Mirage Sessions- I have to question if you know what a New IP even means...

Devils third is a strange case because Nintendo not only published it but Nintendo spd was involved with developing it.

The daemon x machina link doesn't work. But I think your're correct on this one.

Pushmo actually started on the 3ds not the Wii.

Flip wars is very easy to find.

Also add sushi strikers to the list. 

It seems like your're trying to artificially make your argument more credible by not counting the 3ds, like it or not the 3ds was Nintendo's primary console since it released till the launch of switch, And that is where a majority of there new ips have been released.



TheMisterManGuy said:
Sahib said:

Why 2 years? Seems like an arbitrary number of years to make the comparison. how about this we do a comparison of a the current generation of consoles, i’ll Even combine Nintendo’s new IPs for both WiiU and Switch. 

Nintendo new IPs for Wii U and Switch:

Wonderful 101

Splatoon

Arms

1-2 Switch 

 Labo 

Snipperclips

 

 

***Octopath Traveller is a SE IP not Nintendo, like Ryse is a Cryrek IP not MS.

 

Microsoft new IPs for XB1:

Sunset Overdrive

Quantum Break

Recore 

Sea of Thieves

Crimson Dragon

Ori and the Blind Forest

Screamride 

 

KALIMBA

 

MS has a good edge on Nintendo, although both look irrelevant compared to Sony.

 

Sony new IPs for PS4:

  1. Bloodborne
  2. Horizon Zero Dawn
  3. The Last Guardian
  4. Detroit: Become Human
  5. Dreams
  6. Until Dawn
  7. Driveclub
  8. The Order 1886
  9. Knack
  10. Death Stranding
  11. Days Gone
  12. Ghost of Tsushima
  13. Concrete Genie
  14. The Tomorrow Children 
  15. What Remains of Edith Finch
  16. Everybody's gone to the Rapture
  17. Drawn to Death
  18. Kill strain
  19. Alienation
  20. Matterfall
  21. Bound
  22. Helldivers
  23. Resogun
  24. Hohokum
  25. Guns Up
  26. Entwined
  27. CounterSpy
  28. Here They Lie
  29. Hidden Agenda
  30. Erica
  31. Astrobot 
  32. RIGS
  33. Starblood Arena
  34. Farpoint 
  35. Blood and Truth
  36. Bravo Team
  37. Deracine 

You have to really consider context here. One, Nintendo had its development split between the Wii U and the 3DS, so if we count the 3DS, the number is actually much larger for Nintendo. Sony meanwhile killed their Vita Support after the PS4 released, and Microsoft has always only had one platform to deal with. There's also the fact that the Wii U died an early death and the Switch isn't even 2 years old yet. Not to mention that a lot of Nintendo's teams and partners are just coming off their final 3DS projects, so they'll still need to get their Switch games out. 

Even if the number seems small for Nintendo now, Nintendo's still put out more new IP for the Switch in 2 years than the Wii U ever received in 4, and with the 3DS in its final days, the Switch will end up with significantly more new IP from Nintendo than the Wii U. So you can list the new IPs for Sony and Microsoft on their consoles all you want, but they were in a very different position vs Nintendo at the time. 

WiiU launched before PS4 and Switch are still going. So he is in fact taking a bigger timeframe for Nintendo (remember that PS3 had several games launched in the last 2 years of it's life, while Wii had precoce cut). Plus the level of investment needed to launch a game on PS4 versus WiiU or even Switch are very different same with manpower.

TheMisterManGuy said:
Sahib said:

It’s not anyone else’s fault that Nintendo has multiple platforms...it’s also a lame excuse, even if we look at Sony’s output for just PS4 it’s still far beyond Nintendo’s output on 3DS+WiiU+NS. That’s also ignoring the fact that none of Nintendo’s new IPs are nowhere close in terms of production values to Sony’s new IPs like Horizon, Detroit, Death Stranding, Ghost of Tsushima, etc.

The number would be similar to Sony's if we're including all three systems from Nintendo. And it may not be anyone else's fault that Nintendo has multiple systems, but Nintendo spread their releases out between the two, so you still have to consider that when talking about them. Plus, the Wii U was a huge failure as well so Nintendo couldn't really afford a lot of risk taking at the time on there either. 

Even if Sony's output was somehow greater, I fail to see how this has anything to do with my original point. I wasn't comparing Nintendo to Sony or Microsoft, I was comparing them to other Japanese publishers this gen like Capcom and Sega. Sony isn't even a Japanese publisher anymore. SIE relocated to California 2 years ago, so you're comparison is especially irrelevant to my point. 

On Sony list no one listed things exclusively for Vita. Plus it is not out of reason that Sony is recognized to create more IPs among the 3 companies. Even more when we talk about taking risk on big budget new IPs. Sony have said it themselves in the PS3 time that out of 10 games they created (considering also sequels) 6 lost money, 2 break even and only 2 brought real money back. Do you think Nintendo takes similar level of risk on new IPs?

And Sorry, Sony is still a japanese company, you are using a very arbitrary definition to put Nintendo in the top of the rank.

Bofferbrauer2 said:
Sahib said:

Why 2 years? Seems like an arbitrary number of years to make the comparison. how about this we do a comparison of a the current generation of consoles, i’ll Even combine Nintendo’s new IPs for both WiiU and Switch. 

Nintendo new IPs for Wii U and Switch:

Wonderful 101

Splatoon

Arms

1-2 Switch 

 Labo 

Snipperclips

 

Captain Toad

Daemon X Machina

Flip Wars

Devil's Third

NES Remix

Pushmo

Sing Party

Tokio Mirage Sessions

 

 

***Octopath Traveller is a SE IP not Nintendo, like Ryse is a Cryrek IP not MS.

 

Microsoft new IPs for XB1:

Sunset Overdrive

Quantum Break

Recore 

Sea of Thieves

Crimson Dragon

Ori and the Blind Forest

Screamride 

 

KALIMBA

 

MS has a good edge on Nintendo, although both look irrelevant compared to Sony.

 

Sony new IPs for PS4:

  1. Bloodborne Belongs to FromSoftware
  2. Horizon Zero Dawn
  3. The Last Guardian 
  4. Detroit: Become Human Belongs to Quantic Dream, not Sony
  5. Dreams
  6. Until Dawn Belongs to Supermassive Games
  7. Driveclub
  8. The Order 1886
  9. Knack
  10. Death Stranding Belongs to Kojima Productions
  11. Days Gone
  12. Ghost of Tsushima
  13. Concrete Genie
  14. The Tomorrow Children 
  15. What Remains of Edith Finch Multiplatform title
  16. Everybody's gone to the Rapture
  17. Drawn to Death
  18. Kill strain
  19. Alienation Belongs to Housemarque
  20. Matterfall Belongs to Housemarque
  21. Bound Belongs to Plastic Studios
  22. Helldivers Belongs to Arrowhead Studios
  23. Resogun Belongs to Housemarque
  24. Hohokum
  25. Guns Up Belongs to Valkyrie Entertainment
  26. Entwined
  27. CounterSpy Multiplat (also available on iOS and Android)
  28. Here They Lie Belongs to Tangentlemen
  29. Hidden Agenda Belongs to Supermassive Games
  30. Erica Flavorworks
  31. Astro Bot 
  32. RIGS
  33. Starblood Arena WhiteMoon Dreams
  34. Farpoint Impulse Gear
  35. Blood and Truth
  36. Bravo Team Couldn't find that game
  37. Deracine FromSoftware

Just completed the Nintendo List a bit more (probably still missing some)

On Sony's side, I just knew the 16 first titles, and out of those 5 do not belong to Sony, with one even being a multiplat title.

I bolded those which have been announced, but not yet released. Considering how long some games can take to make (just check the last Guardian, almost 10 years in the making) and the upcoming release of the PS5, I sorted them out because they may not release on PS4 (Concrete Genie and Dreams for instance should, Ghosts of Tsushima, not so sure)

Oh, and in italic, I noted those which are already dead or dying (meaning MMO titles which have been deactivated already or are scheduled to do so soon). I'd be pissed if I bought on of these, to be frank. They are valid entries though, just sad ones.

Half of the titles listed were actually third party titles, many of them small VR or f2p games. So that brings it down to Nintendo levels, which is much more realistic

Sorry to burst your bubble, but those IPs are all owned by Sony. When Sony pays an exclusive new IP they retain the IP, and this was the main reason for Sunset Overdrive to launch exclusively on X1, because they pitched the Idea to Sony and they said they would greenlit if they kept the IP and Insomniac wanted the control of it.

But I like your effort to take out smaller games or games that won't have sequel. Did you have the same care on the Nintendo games to consider only AAA new IPs? Want to compare those?



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

They just have a good business setup with people who think about gaming entirely different from everyone else. Have they tried to play it safe, a lot of times and clearly with titles like Zelda and Mario, they tried to appeal it to as wide as possible. However they consistently have no fear in changing ideas and rebranding things. It was clear Zelda needed a shakeup but they left a distinct touch to open world games. Same with Mario and 3D platforming when really in terms of numbers for nintendo, nothing suggested that before.

Obviously they've created an economic environment to build this creativity, but they deserve credit for it. They never panic and they understand when they need to change, how to compete as an underdog (they are now) and build brand loyalty. Kudos to them.



Sahib said:
Bofferbrauer2 said:

Just completed the Nintendo List a bit more (probably still missing some)

On Sony's side, I just knew the 16 first titles, and out of those 5 do not belong to Sony, with one even being a multiplat title.

I bolded those which have been announced, but not yet released. Considering how long some games can take to make (just check the last Guardian, almost 10 years in the making) and the upcoming release of the PS5, I sorted them out because they may not release on PS4 (Concrete Genie and Dreams for instance should, Ghosts of Tsushima, not so sure)

Oh, and in italic, I noted those which are already dead or dying (meaning MMO titles which have been deactivated already or are scheduled to do so soon). I'd be pissed if I bought on of these, to be frank. They are valid entries though, just sad ones.

Half of the titles listed were actually third party titles, many of them small VR or f2p games. So that brings it down to Nintendo levels, which is much more realistic

Clearly you do not understand the concept of IP ownership, and you're inconsistent on top of it. Allow me to explain...

Wonderful 101 is a game developed by Platinum games, but is funded and owned by Nintendo. Hence it is on the list. Similarly games you crossed out citing their devs are indeed developed by a 3rd party developer but are funded and owned by Sony, yes even that multiplatform title you listed.

Proof: https://trademarks.justia.com/864/72/what-remains-of-edith-86472634.html

You can find the trademarks for other games on there as well and see who the IP belongs to, all those IP I listed are owned by Sony similar to most of the games that Nintendo puts out that are made by 3rd party devs be it Yoshi, or Kirby, or Smash Bros. or Pokemon. 

 

Secondly you seemed to have inflated Nintendo's list there by adding some more titles I see, I went ahead and took a closer look at them as I couldn't have left those out if they actually qualified:

Captain Toad -Not a new IP, it's a spin off of a character from the Mario franchise.

Flip Wars- I can't even find this...

Devil's Third- Not owned by Nintendo

NES Remix- Not even gonna look it up, just by the name I can assume this is collection of old games and can't possibly be a new IP.

Sing Party- Ok, So I did miss one...

Tokio Mirage Sessions- I have to question if you know what a New IP even means...


NES Remix isn't a collection of old games, look it up. It reuses some parts of different NES games, but none is playable on it's own, just the challenges of the game

Tokio Mirage Sessions is neither Shin Megami Tensei nor is it Fire Emblem, though it uses some elements of both. Otherwise, Persona wouldn't count as IP either, as it's also a spinoff from SMT - a spinoff in the same light as Captain Toad btw. If Persona counts as an IP (and it DOES), then both TMS #FE and Captain Toad do

Flip Wars is a digital only small party game that came out in summer last year, but got quickly drowned by the flurry of higher profile releases.

Forgot Sushi Striker, btw

 

No need to explain, just couldn't find any information that those IP belonged to Sony, only that they were made by independent studios. As such, since I couldn't find any Sony ownership on them, I crossed them out. Mea culpa on all those that I crossed out wrongly.



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VAMatt said:
Jumpin said:

You’re conflating branding with conventional mechanics. They’re two separate things. Also, Nintendo has one of the widest arrays of brand success, criticizing them for not expanding that further is silly.

In addition, saying other Japanese companies don’t do anything like this is blatantly false. Most Japanese companies will highlight their brands across multiple different sorts of games, there are even Final a fantasy fighting and musical rhythm games.

Please provide an example of any IP that comes anywhere close to the whoring level of Mario.  

Spiderman. Basically every three years or so the movie series is rebooted. Also he is in many other movies, is in diverse games and so on.



3DS-FC: 4511-1768-7903 (Mii-Name: Mnementh), Nintendo-Network-ID: Mnementh, Switch: SW-7706-3819-9381 (Mnementh)

my greatest games: 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020

10 years greatest game event!

bets: [peak year], [1], [2], [3], [4]

Spindel said:
ResilientFighter said:
Yeah they lack innovative IPs and only a few new ones surface every decade

Why do you need new IPs when one IP can be used in fighting games, strategy games, plattform games, racing games, soccer games, golf games, tennis games, rpgs, puzzle games etc. 

 

New IPs is not the same as innovation. 

 

Especially if the new IPs do exactly the same as the established ones.



3DS-FC: 4511-1768-7903 (Mii-Name: Mnementh), Nintendo-Network-ID: Mnementh, Switch: SW-7706-3819-9381 (Mnementh)

my greatest games: 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020

10 years greatest game event!

bets: [peak year], [1], [2], [3], [4]

Sahib said:
Nintendo is easily the most risk averse big publisher as far as home consoles market goes. The sheer lack of new IPs by Nintendo is astonishing.

If Nintendo does never new IPs, how come they have a lot of them. Just take a look at Super Smash Bros vs. Playstation All Star Battle Royale. Sony had to deeply scrape the barrel for IPs they could include and still have a much less remarkable roster. I don't even compare to Smash Ultimate, just compare with Smash Brawl, which was at a similar time. Nintendo could whip up easily more remarkable IPs to fill the roster than Sony. So something says to me, that actually Nintendo isn't that bad at creating IPs.



3DS-FC: 4511-1768-7903 (Mii-Name: Mnementh), Nintendo-Network-ID: Mnementh, Switch: SW-7706-3819-9381 (Mnementh)

my greatest games: 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020

10 years greatest game event!

bets: [peak year], [1], [2], [3], [4]

pokoko said:
JSG87 said:

The one thing you have to hand to Nintendo is their ability to take that specific IP and Make it successful no matter what. Not many publishers can say the same.

Not many publishers can do it because they don't have the dedicated, built-in fanbase and dominant advertising position that comes with being a console manufacturer.  That's not an insignificant difference.  If you give something like ARMS to a third-party publisher, and I mean the exact same game, the attach ratio would drop significantly on Nintendo platforms and it would be buried by the competition on other platforms.

Exactly, besides, Nintendo has far less releases than the competition so games like ARMS that on PS4 would look like indie game sell far better on Nintendo's own platform.



God bless You.

My Total Sales prediction for PS4 by the end of 2021: 110m+

When PS4 will hit 100m consoles sold: Before Christmas 2019

There were three ravens sat on a tree / They were as blacke as they might be / The one of them said to his mate, Where shall we our breakfast take?


Mnementh said:
Sahib said:
Nintendo is easily the most risk averse big publisher as far as home consoles market goes. The sheer lack of new IPs by Nintendo is astonishing.

If Nintendo does never new IPs, how come they have a lot of them. Just take a look at Super Smash Bros vs. Playstation All Star Battle Royale. Sony had to deeply scrape the barrel for IPs they could include and still have a much less remarkable roster. I don't even compare to Smash Ultimate, just compare with Smash Brawl, which was at a similar time. Nintendo could whip up easily more remarkable IPs to fill the roster than Sony. So something says to me, that actually Nintendo isn't that bad at creating IPs.

But on Smash there are lots of characters from very old IPs that nobody give a damm any more. There are also lots of secondary characters.

Besides smash is cartoon and Nintendo has lots of cartoon characters for it, unlike Sony.



God bless You.

My Total Sales prediction for PS4 by the end of 2021: 110m+

When PS4 will hit 100m consoles sold: Before Christmas 2019

There were three ravens sat on a tree / They were as blacke as they might be / The one of them said to his mate, Where shall we our breakfast take?