This. Sony has no reason to change things right now so i agree that 2021 is the the most likely release date. I expect that they will be waiting for MS to make the next move.

Of course MS have an incentive to release a new console (considering their lower numbers) but have only recently released the Xbox X and wont be wanting to release their next gen one too soon. 

Totally agree, and even if Microsoft/Sony were willing to bite the bullet on costs it would still be a hassle for them to use 7nm next year - especially considering they can wait a few years, eventually adopting an architecture PC developers would be familiar with.

Also people have ridiculous expectations of next gen - how could they come out in the next year or so, have a 12TF GPU (floating point operations by the way are an awful perfomance measure), be affordable and have developers on board (day one) all at the same time? Seriously, folks need to relax their expectations, Sony and Microsoft aren't miracle workers!

Slim and Pro weren't announced at E3 2017 either, so no hardware this E3 doesn't mean all that much. It's a hint but nothing concrete by any means.

Pro and XB1X both had two separate prototypes. PS could do the same with PS5. Heck, they could even have more, one for each upcoming holiday. As long as the tech in those designs wasn't so futuristic that it couldn't be used until those designated time frames, then PS can move up the production and launch date if necessary. If XB were to announce early to mid 2019 that 'XB2' was launching holiday 2019 and it was by far the best performance you could manufacture for $499 at that time, then PS could simply pick the 2020 PS5 version, and move it up to say, a March 2020 launch. This would give them the stronger hardware and would snuff out the new XB most powerful marketing they clearly are sticking with. The problem PS would have is price. It would have to be the same price as the 'XB2' ($499?), which may also require some hardware subsidy early on. Is PS willing to subsidize and are they willing to launch at $499?

The fact that PS decided to wait as long as they did to announce Pro, makes me think they really wanted to see what XB had cooking, assuming Scorpio would be launching late 2016 as well. Since that's not what happened, PS had time to decide how to properly market Pro based on the info they had about Scorpio and announce when they felt ready. Pro was not going to be changed in terms of hardware, they could only have made a costly decision to drop Pro and launch the stronger version alongside XB1X. This would also explain why the Pro launch wasn't the smoothest ever. They probably made some minor changes to the plan to combat Scorpio, mostly in terms of software.

The fact that XB decided to wait until holiday 2017, says to me they simply wanted to make sure they had the strongest hardware on the market. Sure, being closer to native 4k is great, but marketing can be molded for a Pro or XB1X scenario. This also makes me think that no matter what PS does going forward with PS5, XB is going to wait if they need to, to make sure they have the strongest hardware. If this is the plan, then PS would be smarter to just simply get the hardware out sooner than later and make sure that XB is forced to rush if anything.

Dropping PS5 while PS4 is still hot, does seem unnecessary on one hand, but if it get's the PS5 out two full years before the 'XB2', then that would end up giving PS the upper hand in more than just an early launch, because right after MS eventually announces that 'XB2' is the new most powerful console, PS can immediately announce PS5 Pro is coming and it will be the most powerful ever, which would squash the main marketing for 'XB2'. This will force XB to do everything they can to make sure 'XB2' launches as quickly as possible after PS5 does. The more PS can make XB rush, the less first party content it will probably have at launch, or that content will more than likely be half baked, which would not be good for their launch.

PS5 launching later makes more sense in terms of profits and user base, but launching earlier, makes more sense in terms of strategy and the long game. The longer PS decided to stretch this gen, the more they have to think about adding new upgraded PS4 hardware again. There doesn't exactly seem to be a right and wrong answer. Both ways have there pluses and minuses. The mid gen consoles and now a hybrid console blur the lines enough that's it's really tough to gauge what's coming and when.

Exactly, this little fact is what makes it hard having tis conversation with a lot of people. Like they have absolutely no clue what goes into these things. There are multiple iterations of every hardware. Even multiple teams working on these iterations. All designs have a projected launch window and the designs are made with said launch window and intended price in mind. Even at times incorporating things virtually that may not exist in the market yet (like builing a board with VRMs for an APU that doesn't even exist yet).

Sony will have a design for 2019, 2020 and even 2021. And at least on paper and in their labs they will have all those designs as far along as possible. And things change, some components may mature earlier than expected and allow two different designs to be merged, or some may get delayed and result in a design being scrapped. 

They even have multiple iterations of certain components in a particular design, like cooling systems or memory architecture.

Or it could be that they weren't sure they could build the Pro APU yet and as for XB1 waiting a year, it could have also been that the 16nm process was not yet mature enough.

MS doesn't have that luxury though.... as it stands things are bad enough as it is. And as sony's PS4 install base grows, with the ever growing popularity of PS+ and digital distribution, and the almost certain fact that next gen would be backwards compatible, sony is pretty much securing theior next gen dominance right now with the PS4. As long as they don't mess things up too much.

Another thing is that there is only so much either of them can do. Its kinda laready pretty much known what kinda core hardware can make it into a 7nm APU or a discrete CPU/GPU using a 7nm fab process. Both sony and MS already have a very good idea what they will have to work with by now. Only things up in teh air are APU/Discrete config, cooling systems, memory architecture and quantity....etc. Those are the only real areas where these consoles will differ from one another if at all.

And MS would literally be crazy to wait a year giving sony a 1yr head start in a new generation, especially when waiting that one year won't really make much of a difference in the grand scheme of things. Only people that can really afford to do that now is sony, and even that is highly doubtful.

Sounds like it's gonna get boring. They seem to be taking Notes off Nintendo's zelda presentation and already forgot how they knocked it out of the park just some years ago.

What they did last year was fine. It was right. They just didn't have alot of exciting stuff to announce, but they still did better than the competition.
If microsoft keeps to the model, they will probably have a better E3.

Sony just likes to shoot itself in the foot sometimes.

On the other hand, i can see the logic in it. If you announce 30 games, people will only remember some after the conference, but still... it's exposure time for all those titles. i guess they want people talking about their exclusives in order to push sales.

Theres even a rumor now that there will be a demo of FF7 remake packed in with Kingdom Hearts 3, but yeah I personally think it would be cross-gen (if the ps5 isnt backwards compatible). I'm hoping Bluepoint is working on a demons souls remake if it is a Sony exclusive. Oh yeah and theres the medievil remake that still needs to be properly shown, so we might get that this E3.

Based on the Pro APU GPU "butterfly" design, it looks like it was planned well ahead of time. That's not a guarantee, but likely. I can only assume the Pro parts were all ready by then, so they simply would need to be assembled and shipped, otherwise toss some of those parts and wait a year for the higher performance parts. Pro was already on 16nm when it launched, so unless MS had to wait for XB1X parts, hardware doesn't seem to be a concern. The higher end vapor chamber cooler even has been around for quite some time, and they knew it was shooting for around 6TF, so I really have a hard time believing hardware was the problem, unless it had to do with cost, which is possible.

MS didn't have that luxury in 2016, and yet they waited. I have to assume that they knew this gen was long over and the best thing to do was to get back on track and pick a path and follow it. It looks like the path they chose was power, with a little more first and third party investment to go along with it. The only way MS can make sure they keep the crown and continue that path, is to either highly subsidize the hardware alongside a PS5 launch, or wait and make sure 'XB2' is more powerful 6-12 months later. XB will be able to keep the large majority of the spec heads this way, other than pure PS fans. It may not be a sales stat winning combo, but even MS knows that going up against PS5 is going to most likely be a beating if PS doesn't screw up. It's going to take time to make XB a worthy competitor again other than simply buying up third party exclusivity, and that is a feeble short sighted attempt at best.

7nm very well may be a "problem". If a PS5 launches late 2019 and is 7nm, it's either going to cost $499 without a doubt, or it's going to cost $399 and be extremely weak performance for next gen. If they want to launch PS5 late 2019, it most likely will be on 12nm or 10nm. It may require a larger PSU like Pro has depending on the performance they go with, but it would give them a huge lead going into next gen. A 7nm slim doesn't have to wait 3 or 4 years. They also can wait until 7nm is console yield ready, because PS4 is a money printer that doesn't run out of ink, but that would also somewhat help MS and 'XB2'.

If PS5 launches late 2019, MS would be just as crazy to launch 'XB2" alongside it, considering XB1X would have only been on the market for 2 years. XB launches have basically been in 4 year intervals, so 2 years would be a massive gamble and could hurt them worse than waiting. Until MS gets the XB brand back in a 360 level competitive mindset, they might as well just stay out of the way, because trying to fight someone with a broken arm is only going to lead to getting your other one broken. Waiting a year or two after PS5, could allow 'XB2' to launch with some future tech that's just not ready yet, especially price wise, which could give them a big hardware advantage, depending on whether that same hardware could be utilized in a PS5 Pro soon after or not.

No PS hardware again at E3 kinda sucks, but their first party games lineup looks awesome. Since there probably won't be anything in terms of hardware for Nin, minus Labo, I'll have to hope that MS goes crazy and launches an XB1 portable. That would be super interesting and would shake things up.

Lets hope its not like last year psx.
But sony already has so many games coming out i dont see them announcing something big.
Remember people this is what there working on.

Dreams
Ghost of tsushima
The last of us part 2
Medievil
Days gone
Detroit become human
Spiderman
Death stranding

I do expect one or 2 other exclusives being revealed,maybe ratchet and clank 2.

And ofcourse a game by japan studios.

You can't possibly be comparing 2016/2017 which were iterative consoles on an already existing platform to a new platform launch. Of course Ms could wait then, as it didn't matter to sony if they wouldn't have the most powerful bx on the market anymore. At the end of the day either decision hasn't made any difference whatsoever. MS can't wait at the start of a gen though. They simply do not have the same kinda market presence sony has across territories. If MS gave sony a years head start, by the time the the XB2 is released sony would have ammassed a 10-15M strong lead already and wold even be in a position to price slash their own console cutting the legs rfrom under MS. 

Honestly, the only way MS gains market share over sony (as it has always been) is if sony messes their own shit up. Like say put in a cell APU or come in at $200 more than the XB2.

Sony can wait..... if the PS5/XB2 is within 5-20% of each other performance wise and launch within 3 months of eachother, sony wins the gen. Just imagine a launch year (first 12 months after launch) with games like Horizon 2, GOW2, Spiderman 2 and whatever else they get from japan.... Maybe even GT7. Ms simply will not have an answer to a year like that.

Lol... well, nothing will be worse than MS giving sony a years head start. And if the PS5 is on a 7nm APU in 2020..... it doesn't matter if MS waits a year, they will also be on a 7nm APU and the difference in power will not be more than 20%, which won't even matter cause both consoles will be running games natively at 4k. At that rez the margins of differentiation become a lot harder to spot. If MS is gonna wait then they might as well pull a nintendo and wait till like 2022 - 2024 when we could be seeing 4nm chips. Then their XB2 wwould be like twice as powerful as a PS5 and on par with the PS5pro. PS5 would probably be sitting at like 60M consoles sold though.

You yourself don't give relevant context.

The PS1 was Sonys first console. Prior to the decision to go rogue there was all this fuss with Nintendo and Sega. There was no year after Saturn. They released only a few month apart in the west (Japan only a few weeks). And only because Sega preponed the launch of the Saturn (west), which cost them dearly (retailer boycott). Sega wasn't in good condition even before this and of course Sony was aware of their situtation. Sony knew they were in a good position and took full advantage of it (299.-). Because they could do what Sega (and Nintendo) could not. But "a Microsoft" can. That is why SEGA threw the towel and Nintendo doing evasive maneuvring since the gamecube.

Yes, the PS3 did beat the 360 at the end. But at what cost? We all know at what cost.

"You are looking at sales but thats the wrong thing to look at unless they are really bad."

What was really bad was Sony finances thanks to the very expensive PS3. Very expensive for them, not the customer. Why pretend that never happened and say "O sony can wait, they ve nothing to fear". That's nonsense.

"And just look at the NS, go tell them they should have launched in 2013 as opposed to 2017  after looking at them eating into the XB1s lead."

What are you even...

Nintendo did launch a console in 2012. Which wasn't very successful to put it mildly. That is why they chose the next economically viable moment to re-enter and try again. And that was not 2013. 2014. 2015. Or (the first half of) 2016.