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Forums - Gaming Discussion - The Discussion Thread: The Greatest Games Event 2017 - FINISH YOUR LISTS

#2
The Legend of Dragoon
Previous Year: #2

The Legend of Dragoon has always been a very divisive game, with some people absolutely loving it while others don't care for it at all. As you can see, I am firmly in the former group of people, as there has only ever been one game I rate higher than this. Personally, I found The Legend of Dragoon to be an amazing game that does something entirely unique that no other game I've played really does, that being the battle system. The game uses a battle system where the player can string together a series of attacks with well-timed button presses, making the battles much more interesting and involved than if you were just repeatedly selecting an attack and watching the character do the action by themselves.

With an interesting story and characters, charming and at the time very beautiful graphics (the backgrounds are still often gorgeous), and a very good soundtrack the game has very much held up over the years. The only real blemishes are the average at best voice acting, which there is fortunately quite little of, and the English script that has its fair share of mistakes.  Besides those minor issues there isn't anything to complain about in the game. It still contains some of the most memorable and surprising moments in any video game I've ever played, and it is one of the few games I can confidently say I have done absolutely everything there is to do in it. I have finished every sidequest, every optional area and every single boss the game has to offer, and when I inevitably go back to play at some point I will likely do it all over again.



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Ka-pi96 said:

#3 is Final Fantasy 8! Only #3 though? :O

#1 is that.... Lost Odyssey? What you say there kind of reminds me of the thousand years of dreams from that game.

Third is correct indeed. It's Final Fantasy 8!

It's only third because after heavy mental debate with myself, no.2 and no.1 felt like the better choices while making the list. Since it's mood-dependent, FF8 might take back a higher spot some other year.

Biggest victim was Knights of the Old Republic; it used to be the first one but fell down quite some places this year.

And no, no.1 isn't Lost Odyssey.



The_Liquid_Laser said:

Ironically, I have a personal pet peeve about games from the PS1/N64 generation (gen 5).  I just think their graphics have aged horribly, worse than even gen 4 or gen 3 games.

I have a theory about that. I think every new technological step needs to be explored to get the possibilities. There are technological possibilities to discover. But even more important for gaming: there are artistic possibilities to discover. Early on these experiences have to be made, so the medium/technology isn't used to it's potential. As the artist learn how things work out, this gets better.

For gaming this means, with 2D- and 3D-graphics we had such technological steps. But 2D was in the very early days of gaming. Barely anyone was around to remember. Gen 3 or 4 the artists already had experience with the technology, so they did good memorable stuff. With 3D they had to learn new how to do that. And this time a lot of gamers were around to remember the transition.

I think that for a game to age well, the artistic stuff is more important than the technological stuff. So an artistically well made 2D-game ages better than the first 3D-games were artists were still trying what they can do with their new options. If FF7 defies this, it means Square gave the people working on it enough time (meaning budget) to work things out. And they had artistical vision.

By the way, I probably should add FF7 to the should try-list. Many people seem to like the game and declare it the best of the series.

Last edited by Mnementh - on 31 December 2017

3DS-FC: 4511-1768-7903 (Mii-Name: Mnementh), Nintendo-Network-ID: Mnementh, Switch: SW-7706-3819-9381 (Mnementh)

my greatest games: 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020, 2021, 2022, 2023

10 years greatest game event!

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#1 The Legend of Zelda



Why did it make the list?
When The Legend of Zelda came out it was head and shoulders better than any game that had come before.  The music, the combat, the exploration, the dungeons, the many secrets…all of these things were so much better than any previous game.  On top of that the game was flawless.  There was not one moment where I was jarred out of the game world because of bugs or bad design. 

Once I got to the end of this amazing game, I found that there was a whole second quest waiting for me.  How can I be given such a breakthrough game, and then also be given an entire second quest to play through it again?  It was unheard of at the time.  It is unheard of today!  Any top game of today would surely have its extra quest, or post-game content, sold as DLC (including this year’s Zelda game).

On top of all this, the game ages like fine wine. I feel The Legend of Zelda is even better now than when I first played it in 1987, 30 years ago.  For a long time, I felt Final Fantasy 7 was the best game of all time.  However, last year I went back and replayed the Legend of Zelda and it reclaimed the top spot.  How can a game start out as flawless and then get even better over time?  I will try to explain in the last section below.

 

Original Experience:
This is the game, more than any other, that killed off the arcades.  I am not saying this, because I hate arcade games.  In fact, I love arcade games and have several on my top 50 list.  Rather, I am saying this as someone who remembers arcade gaming compared to the Atari 2600 and then witnessed arcade gaming vs. the NES.  My conclusion is that The Legend of Zelda killed off arcade gaming.

Let me explain further.  The Atari 2600 largely became successful because of arcade ports.  The console really started selling well when they put Space Invaders on it.  After that several other popular arcade games got ported: Asteroids, Missile Command, Frogger, Donkey Kong, Pacman….  Look at the best selling Atari 2600 games, and you will see all of these arcade ports near the top.  And yet each one of these games was clearly inferior to the arcade version.  They became best-sellers largely because any kid younger than 16 simply couldn’t go to the arcade whenever they wanted.  So kids were very happy at the time to just play anything.  Then the home console market crashed and went away….

A few years later the NES hit the US.  It had games that felt just as good as the arcade version.  For example, I had already played Super Mario Bros and Duck Hunt and Kung Fu Master in the arcades.  Super Mario Bros, in particular, was so good that it became the game that revived console gaming from the dead.  It was just as good as any arcade game out there.  However, The Legend of Zelda was even better than all of the arcade games out there.

The Legend of Zelda truly took gaming to a place it had never been before.  Before Zelda most people played lots of fast and fun arcade style games.  They were meant to be tough and they were not long games, because the makers wanted you to keep playing so that you could put in more quarters.  However, some people were playing computer RPG’s which were much longer and deeper games with exploration and character progression, but also the gameplay was a lot slower and less intense than an arcade game.  The Legend of Zelda combined the best of arcade and computer gaming by making a fast and fun action game that also had more depth because of exploration and character progression like an RPG.  The result was a game better than any arcade game out there (or computer game for that matter).  Why go out to play arcade games, when there are now even better games that you can play at home?

I loved my Atari 2600, but I always preferred going to the arcades in those days.  During the NES era, I largely ignored the arcade.  Then one day I went back and most genres were gone except fighting games like Street Fighter 2.  The Legend of Zelda really made home consoles a powerhouse that couldn’t be ignored.


How does it hold up today?
The Legend of Zelda is even better than I first remember it.  I had always heard that you could play through the dungeons in any order, but I hadn’t tried doing it until last year.  What people don’t tell you though, is that the game becomes a totally different experience if you do this.  For example, usually you get the boomerang and bow in the first dungeon.  This time I got the ladder first.  This made the game feel very different, but still very fun in a new type of way.

The original Zelda is different than every other game, including every other Zelda (although Link to the Past is close).  One reason is that you can play through the dungeons in any order.  (Not even Link to the Past can do that.)  However, the biggest reason is that almost every item in the game makes you more powerful, and also that is the main reason why you get the item.  Sure, bomb and candle can be used to find secrets, but the main reason you get them is to blow things up and set things on fire.  Even the ladder upgrades your combat ability, because now you can hover over water and attack the enemies while they can’t attack you.  This means that if you get the items in a different order, you advance in a very different way, and the game becomes a new experience.

And there is still room to take this further.  Some people play the whole game with just the beginning sword.  Others have completed the whole game swordless (except for Ganon which requires the sword).  Some choose to stay at 3 hearts for the whole game.  Any really good game is easy to learn and difficult to master.  Original Zelda is definitely this, but it also makes each experience different while going through that “difficult to master” part.

 

The Legend of Zelda is a game that started out perfect, and it has gotten better over time.  I have yet to find another game that combines the simple, intense arcade action with deep exploration and character progression.  Also, I have yet to find another game that actually gets better over time.  For these reasons, I have to declare The Legend of Zelda the #1 game of all time.



Mnementh said:
The_Liquid_Laser said:

Ironically, I have a personal pet peeve about games from the PS1/N64 generation (gen 5).  I just think their graphics have aged horribly, worse than even gen 4 or gen 3 games.

I have a theory about that. I think every new technological step needs to be explored to get the possibilities. There are technological possibilities to discover. But even more important for gaming: there are artistic possibilities to discover. Early on these experiences have to be made, so the medium/technology isn't used to it's potential. As the artist learn how things work out, this gets better.

For gaming this means, with 2D- and 3D-graphics we had such technological steps. But 2D was in the very early days of gaming. Barely anyone was around to remember. Gen 3 or 4 the artists already had experience with the technology, so they did good memorable stuff. With 3D they had to learn new how to do that. And this time a lot of gamers were around to remember the transition.

I think that for a game to age well, the artistic stuff is more important than the technological stuff. So an artistically well made 2D-game ages better than the first 3D-games were artists were still trying what they can do with their new options. If FF7 defies this, it means Square gave the people working on it enough time (meaning budget) to work things out. And they had artistical vision.

By the way, I probably should add FF7 to the should try-list. Many people seem to like the game and declare it the best of the series.

This explanation makes sense to me.  I also think it had another thing in it's favor, which is an artistic principle I learned in book called, "understanding comics" by Scott McCloud.  McCloud says that people like a highly detailed world, but that characters are easier to relate to when they are less detailed.  An extreme example is the smiley face, which has almost no details but everyone relates to it.  So some of the best comics choose to draw their characters simply while having highly detailed backgrounds. 

Final Fantasy VII does this thing throughout most of the game.  They had a hard time transitioning to 3D, so they decided to hand draw most of the background environments.  These hand drawings look beautiful.  At the same time the 3D character models look incredibly basic.  The result is that it is very easy to get immersed into the game world while still being able to relate to Cloud and the other characters, because they look so simple. 



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Mnementh said:
Cerebralbore101 said:
Hint for #1. Three Swords. One for the God of Life, one for the God of Machines, one for a hero.

Uhm, Xenoblade Chronicles?

Yep, #1 is Xenoblade Chronicles. 

While I admit that, many games on my list, like Mass Effect 2, and Breath of the Wild are easier to get into with almost zero flaws, Xenoblade Chronicles takes #1 for being my personal favorite. I love JRPGs, and the very best JRPGs have vast open worlds to explore at your leisure. Final Fantasy 6 and 7 both reach a point where you are free to fly around in the airship (or whatever you are traveling in) and look for hidden secrets. Etrian Odyssey games have maze-like dungeons that are brimming with interesting things to find. Xenoblade Chronicles set a new standard for exploration in JRPGs. Yes, there's still story based progression, locking you out of areas. But Xenoblade has these large open, fully explorable areas like Bionis' Leg.

Most JRPGs use some sort of turn based combat system, or have a decent, but flawed real time combat system. The real time combat systems, in JRPGs, often fail to take into account enemy positioning, or sneak attacks. They also lack a good combo system. Xenoblade's combat system handles all of this with ease. Certain attacks deal more damage, or issue different effects based on where you are standing in relation to your enemy. Sneak attacks are a very real thing in Xenoblade and can often be used to outright kill an enemy within seconds of entering combat. The Break, Topple, Daze combo system of Xenoblade, combined with chain attacks from the party gauge, really make combat dynamic and exciting. Some moves break an enemy's stance, and then you get a timer. If you can use a move with the topple effect before the timer runs out you get another timer, and knock the enemy over. If you can use a final daze move before the topple timer runs out you stun the enemy for a long time. There's also a system that let's you predict and counter enemy attacks called foresight. Xenoblade only has seven playable characters, but each one has multiple skill trees that you can reset at a moments notice. Combine that with the ability to change  equipment and you have thirty or more playstyles built into just seven characters.

The story of Xenoblade Chronicles is excellent and even one that I know non-anime fans would be able to get into. The plottwists in this game are somewhat predictable, but still great. All the characters are compelling with their own story arcs, and personal epiphanies. Riki is a personal favorite of mine. He's just a middle aged guy, saddled with great debt, and a ton of kids. But the fact that he's a cuddly little Nopon makes the player look at him differently. For most of the game you might be tricked into thinking he's just an adolescent fun loving kid that is tagging along with Shulk on an adventure. Nope. He's an grown man with an adult life. He's cowardly and lazy to boot. Oh and did I mention that he makes the ultimate tank? Just imagine a round ball of fluff, suited up in impenetrable spherical armor, taunting giant foes. 



#1
Obviously, the best game ever



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#1
Final Fantasy IX
Previous Year: #1

The title for the best game of all time as far as I'm concerned goes to Final Fantasy IX, now and most likely forever. To me, this is as close to perfection a game has ever come. To put it simply, this is a game I could play through pretty much every year and never get tired of. The world, the characters, the story, the music, the visual style, and everything else in FF IX comes together in such perfect balance, with every element complementing the others to create something truly exceptional in my opinion. 

One of the key elements that makes the game stand out so well in my mind is Nobuo Uematsu's amazing score. I still remember the first times I heard songs such as ´Rose of May´, ´Protecting My Devotion´ and ´You're Not Alone´. Those and many others have stuck in my head ever since then, elevating the scenes they accompanied to some of my favourites in video game history. Final Fantasy IX also contains some of the most impressive animated sequences ever created for anything. The battle of Alexandria, Bahamut vs. Alexander, any of the Eidolon sequences, the destruction of Terra, and so many others have rarely been even matched, let alone bettered.

If I would have to come up with something to improve in the game, the battle system could perhaps be a little faster paced and involve the player a little bit more. It's never truly bothered me, but I can still see that it could very easily be improved by adding something for the player to do besides just selecting an action from a list. However, in the overall package any minor problems the game has mean nothing. This is the best game ever made, plain and simple. I've played games for around 26 years now, and of those Final Fantasy IX has been at the top of my list for the last 16. Perhaps one day a game will come that dethrones it, but I don't expect that to ever actually happen.



Slarvax said:
#1
Obviously, the best game ever

Dark Souls?



Wright said:
Slarvax said:
#1
Obviously, the best game ever

Dark Souls?

Haven't played it.



Bet with bluedawgs: I say Switch will outsell PS4 in 2018, he says PS4 will outsell Switch. He's now permabanned, but the bet will remain in my sig.

NNID: Slarvax - Steam: Slarvax - Friend Code:  SW 7885-0552-5988