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Forums - Nintendo - Nintendo was never doomed

Alkibiádēs on 26 August 2017
DialgaMarine said:
Is it beating PS4 though? Launch day, it had higher sales because it launched in more countries, including Japan.PS4 launched only in US and Canada, then Europe 2 weeks later, and then Japan about 4 months later. Once all was said and done though, PS4 had a very solid baseline and has been maintaining it ever since.

What does this have to do with the topic at hand?



"The strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must" - Thoukydides

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Wman1996 on 26 August 2017

Nintendo is more likely to be doomed from the loss of trust/interest of consumers and fans. That will happen before they lose too much money.



Lifetime Sales Predictions 

Switch: 161 million (was 73 million, then 96 million, then 113 million, then 125 million, then 144 million, then 151 million, then 156 million)

PS5: 122 million (was 105 million, then 115 million) Xbox Series X/S: 38 million (was 60 million, then 67 million, then 57 million. then 48 million. then 40 million)

Switch 2: 120 million (was 116 million)

PS4: 120 mil (was 100 then 130 million, then 122 million) Xbox One: 51 mil (was 50 then 55 mil)

3DS: 75.5 mil (was 73, then 77 million)

"Let go your earthly tether, enter the void, empty and become wind." - Guru Laghima

Kai_Mao on 26 August 2017
Turkish said:
KLAMarine said:

You're likely correct but I'd like to see some hard financial numbers to back this up.

Hmm, perhaps... Google Trends is telling me for the past 12 months, Nintendo has gathered up more interest than PlayStation.

https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?q=playstation,nintendo

Not sure what to make of this, honestly. Add in xbox and one is in for a surprising result: https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?q=playstation,nintendo,xbox

Also compare Nintendo's Switch's reveal trailer to PS4's reveal trailer:

 

What the latter took to reach in over four years, the former is on track to reach in about one. Another potential indicator of interest favoring Nintendo. Note PlayStation's higher sub count though...

There's also the chance that recognition and interest are two completely different things and should not be compared in this way... What say you?

Three fourths of the world!? That's about 5.6 billion people... I'm having a very hard time believing this. How was this number calculated?

That's a table from 2016, I believe. http://brandirectory.com/league_tables/table/global-500-2017 is showing something slightly different:

...

Nintendo's 355 to PlayStation's 479.

"I dunno why you guys use months old data"

Why do you? You linked http://brandirectory.com/league_tables/table/global-500-2016 which was from a year that ended over seven months ago.

Is not hard to look up latest financial reports. PS4 division made 17.7bn yen profit vs Nintendoes 16.2 last q, and they just launched their most popular console.

Playstation has bigger brand recognition, do a representative poll worldwide and more people will know Playstation than Nintendo, from all my travels in Europe, Middle East and Asia Playstation was the most associated with gaming. It's been a continuously used name for over 20 years. People might know the Wii and Gameboy individually but not the company behind it just like they might not know Sony is behind Playstation. Playstation makes big money and let others make big money, it's how 3rd parties survive. PSN until recently was making more money than all of Nintendo, that storefront alone is worth $.

Then I guess Japan made a mistake having Mario represent the nation in the handoff of the closing ceremonies of one of the biggest international events in the world or having Pokémon become official mascots of the national team for the World Cup. :P

Or the fact that there's excitement of Nintendo creating a theme park at Universal Studios.

and I thought he showed you an updated link of popular brands showing Nintendo being a little higher. Don't you acknowledge that since you put out link from the same site?



JWeinCom on 26 August 2017
Turkish said:
KLAMarine said:

"If Sony spun off Playstation, it would be worth more than Nintendo alone"

 

How do you know this?

Because Playstation is 1. more profitable and generates more sales 2. has bigger brand recognition 3. is a global brand which 3/4th of the world recognizes as the face of gaming 4. one of the most valuable brands http://brandirectory.com/league_tables/table/global-500-2016

JWeinCom said:

Not done.

Market cap is based stock price.  Sony's stock price is lower than it was at the end of may.  Nintendo's is higher.

http://www.ign.com/articles/2017/06/26/nintendos-market-value-climbs-past-sony-corp

As of the end of June, Nintendo's market cap was higher.  That being said though, market cap is not the same as market value.  Market cap only accounts for equity.  Buying Sony for instance would mean assuming their debts, which would influence the price someone would be willing to pay for them.

Sony is worth more than Nintendo now, it's a simple google search really, I dunno why you guys use months old data, stocks aren't a static thing.

Sony market cap: 5,61T yen

Nintendo market cap: 5,33T yen

The reason that people use months old data, is because since stocks do change people tend to give market caps at particular benchmarks, such as the end of a fiscal year, as the person I was replying to did.  I provided the link to specifically show that this data is not definitive proof, as that person was claiming.  I further explained that market cap is not equivelant to the worth of the company.  Cause it's not.

Turkish said:
KLAMarine said:

You're likely correct but I'd like to see some hard financial numbers to back this up.

Hmm, perhaps... Google Trends is telling me for the past 12 months, Nintendo has gathered up more interest than PlayStation.

https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?q=playstation,nintendo

Not sure what to make of this, honestly. Add in xbox and one is in for a surprising result: https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?q=playstation,nintendo,xbox

Also compare Nintendo's Switch's reveal trailer to PS4's reveal trailer:

 

What the latter took to reach in over four years, the former is on track to reach in about one. Another potential indicator of interest favoring Nintendo. Note PlayStation's higher sub count though...

There's also the chance that recognition and interest are two completely different things and should not be compared in this way... What say you?

Three fourths of the world!? That's about 5.6 billion people... I'm having a very hard time believing this. How was this number calculated?

That's a table from 2016, I believe. http://brandirectory.com/league_tables/table/global-500-2017 is showing something slightly different:

...

Nintendo's 355 to PlayStation's 479.

"I dunno why you guys use months old data"

Why do you? You linked http://brandirectory.com/league_tables/table/global-500-2016 which was from a year that ended over seven months ago.

Is not hard to look up latest financial reports. PS4 division made 17.7bn yen profit vs Nintendoes 16.2 last q, and they just launched their most popular console.

Playstation has bigger brand recognition, do a representative poll worldwide and more people will know Playstation than Nintendo, from all my travels in Europe, Middle East and Asia Playstation was the most associated with gaming. It's been a continuously used name for over 20 years. People might know the Wii and Gameboy individually but not the company behind it just like they might not know Sony is behind Playstation. Playstation makes big money and let others make big money, it's how 3rd parties survive. PSN until recently was making more money than all of Nintendo, that storefront alone is worth $.

Uhhh... 

I don't know why we're going to look at just one quarter of financial results to determine company value.  I also was completely unaware that the Switch was already "their most popular console", or that console launches were supposed to be a particularly profitable time.  Considering that Sony lost about 128 billion yen after the PS4 launch, maybe we shouldn't expect this to be Nintendo's most profitable time.

In other words, pointing out that Sony's profits were a hundred million dollars or so more in one quarter is a pretty poor argument to show that Sony is more profitable or more popular.


Your personal travels are meaningless.  https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/anecdotal  When you actually do that representative poll worldwide, or can provide a link to one, let me know.  The only thing you posted that approaches evidence is the list of brands that you provided, but then quickly ignored when it showed that Nintendo is actually more popular.  



Turkish on 26 August 2017
JWeinCom said:
Turkish said:

Because Playstation is 1. more profitable and generates more sales 2. has bigger brand recognition 3. is a global brand which 3/4th of the world recognizes as the face of gaming 4. one of the most valuable brands http://brandirectory.com/league_tables/table/global-500-2016

Sony is worth more than Nintendo now, it's a simple google search really, I dunno why you guys use months old data, stocks aren't a static thing.

Sony market cap: 5,61T yen

Nintendo market cap: 5,33T yen

The reason that people use months old data, is because since stocks do change people tend to give market caps at particular benchmarks, such as the end of a fiscal year, as the person I was replying to did.  I provided the link to specifically show that this data is not definitive proof, as that person was claiming.  I further explained that market cap is not equivelant to the worth of the company.  Cause it's not.

Turkish said:

Is not hard to look up latest financial reports. PS4 division made 17.7bn yen profit vs Nintendoes 16.2 last q, and they just launched their most popular console.

Playstation has bigger brand recognition, do a representative poll worldwide and more people will know Playstation than Nintendo, from all my travels in Europe, Middle East and Asia Playstation was the most associated with gaming. It's been a continuously used name for over 20 years. People might know the Wii and Gameboy individually but not the company behind it just like they might not know Sony is behind Playstation. Playstation makes big money and let others make big money, it's how 3rd parties survive. PSN until recently was making more money than all of Nintendo, that storefront alone is worth $.

Uhhh... 

I don't know why we're going to look at just one quarter of financial results to determine company value.  I also was completely unaware that the Switch was already "their most popular console", or that console launches were supposed to be a particularly profitable time.  Considering that Sony lost about 128 billion yen after the PS4 launch, maybe we shouldn't expect this to be Nintendo's most profitable time.

In other words, pointing out that Sony's profits were a hundred million dollars or so more in one quarter is a pretty poor argument to show that Sony is more profitable or more popular.


Your personal travels are meaningless.  https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/anecdotal  When you actually do that representative poll worldwide, or can provide a link to one, let me know.  The only thing you posted that approaches evidence is the list of brands that you provided, but then quickly ignored when it showed that Nintendo is actually more popular.  

"In other words, pointing out that Sony's profits were a hundred million dollars or so more in one quarter is a pretty poor argument to show that Sony is more profitable or more popular." No one made that argument, the argument was that Playstation was more profitable and popular, not Sony. This interaction started whether a spun off Playstation would be worth more than Nintendo, as did the argument which company is worth more today. And about Nintendoes most popular console, of course I meant their fastest selling console.

Both my statements are correct. Playstation is indeed more profitable and popular as they sell more consoles and make more money, and Sony has a bigger market cap. Not sure what arguments need to be started here. You're right you don't need to hear about my travels, because you already know PS4 is indeed the best selling and most popular console on the maket, my anecdotes only explain Sony ain't lying.



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StarDoor on 26 August 2017

 

 

Turkish said:
JWeinCom said:

The reason that people use months old data, is because since stocks do change people tend to give market caps at particular benchmarks, such as the end of a fiscal year, as the person I was replying to did.  I provided the link to specifically show that this data is not definitive proof, as that person was claiming.  I further explained that market cap is not equivelant to the worth of the company.  Cause it's not.

Uhhh... 

I don't know why we're going to look at just one quarter of financial results to determine company value.  I also was completely unaware that the Switch was already "their most popular console", or that console launches were supposed to be a particularly profitable time.  Considering that Sony lost about 128 billion yen after the PS4 launch, maybe we shouldn't expect this to be Nintendo's most profitable time.

In other words, pointing out that Sony's profits were a hundred million dollars or so more in one quarter is a pretty poor argument to show that Sony is more profitable or more popular.


Your personal travels are meaningless.  https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/anecdotal  When you actually do that representative poll worldwide, or can provide a link to one, let me know.  The only thing you posted that approaches evidence is the list of brands that you provided, but then quickly ignored when it showed that Nintendo is actually more popular.  

"In other words, pointing out that Sony's profits were a hundred million dollars or so more in one quarter is a pretty poor argument to show that Sony is more profitable or more popular." No one made that argument, the argument was that Playstation was more profitable and popular, not Sony. This interaction started whether a spun off Playstation would be worth more than Nintendo, as did the argument which company is worth more today. And about Nintendoes most popular console, of course I meant their fastest selling console.

Both my statements are correct. Playstation is indeed more profitable and popular as they sell more consoles and make more money, and Sony has a bigger market cap. Not sure what arguments need to be started here. You're right you don't need to hear about my travels, because you already know PS4 is indeed the best selling and most popular console on the maket, my anecdotes only explain Sony ain't lying.

How would PlayStation alone be worth more than Nintendo when Sony has five divisions that are more profitable than PlayStation, yet the overall market cap for all of Sony combined is only 5% higher than Nintendo?

Turkish said:

 Division performance ranked from best to worst:

Semiconductors 55.4Bn yen profit

Financial Services 46.2Bn yen profit

Music 25Bn yen profit

Imaging Products & Solutions (IP&S) 23.2Bn yen profit

Home Entertainment & Sound (HE&S) 22.6Bn yen profit

Game & Network Services (G&NS) 17.7Bn yen profit

Mobile Communications (MC) 3.6Bn yen profit

Pictures 9.5Bn yen loss

Apparently, you must think that Sony could multiply its stock value by six times if all of its divisions split up into separate companies.

Also, saying that Sony sells more consoles is dubious, since the only timeframe for which that's true is the last 4 years:
http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/thread.php?id=230847&page=1

They've only sold more since the PS4 launched: In other words, they've sold more only when you look at Nintendo's worst generation and exclude the 3DS's best two years on top of that. During the fifth gen, Nintendo was ahead. During the sixth gen, Sony and Nintendo sold nearly equal amounts. During the seventh gen, Nintendo was significantly ahead. Only during the eighth gen has Sony been significantly ahead.



monocle_layton on 26 August 2017

No worries. The next console will flop and be Nintendo's doom



KLAMarine on 26 August 2017
Turkish said:
KLAMarine said:

You're likely correct but I'd like to see some hard financial numbers to back this up.

Hmm, perhaps... Google Trends is telling me for the past 12 months, Nintendo has gathered up more interest than PlayStation.

https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?q=playstation,nintendo

Not sure what to make of this, honestly. Add in xbox and one is in for a surprising result: https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?q=playstation,nintendo,xbox

Also compare Nintendo's Switch's reveal trailer to PS4's reveal trailer:

 

What the latter took to reach in over four years, the former is on track to reach in about one. Another potential indicator of interest favoring Nintendo. Note PlayStation's higher sub count though...

There's also the chance that recognition and interest are two completely different things and should not be compared in this way... What say you?

Three fourths of the world!? That's about 5.6 billion people... I'm having a very hard time believing this. How was this number calculated?

That's a table from 2016, I believe. http://brandirectory.com/league_tables/table/global-500-2017 is showing something slightly different:

...

Nintendo's 355 to PlayStation's 479.

"I dunno why you guys use months old data"

Why do you? You linked http://brandirectory.com/league_tables/table/global-500-2016 which was from a year that ended over seven months ago.

Is not hard to look up latest financial reports. PS4 division made 17.7bn yen profit vs Nintendoes 16.2 last q, and they just launched their most popular console.

It's difficult for me: I'm not in the habit of looking up financial reports but going off of some recent articles, sounds like Nintendo has done pretty well:

Nintendo: $190 million in profit out of $1.38 billion in net sales

https://mynintendonews.com/2017/07/26/nintendo-returns-to-profit-thanks-to-nintendo-switch/

PlayStation: $160 million in operating profit out of revenue of $3.15 billion

http://comicbook.com/gaming/2017/08/01/playstation-4-sales-slump-gaming-profits-down-sony-earnings-report/

I'm not a business major, far from it. I believe profit and operating profit are two different things as are net sales and revenue so these figures are likely not directly comparable...

Also, are these for the same periods of time? I often hear about quarters and to this day, I'm not entirely sure what time periods these quarters span...

Seriously, this financial stuff just doesn't interest me much. I just hope the games I like are successful.

Turkish said:

Playstation has bigger brand recognition, do a representative poll worldwide and more people will know Playstation than Nintendo

So? Has a representative poll been done worldwide?

Turkish said:

from all my travels in Europe, Middle East and Asia Playstation was the most associated with gaming.

Your travels covered 3/4 of the world? You polled 5.6 billion people on this matter in your travels?

Turkish said:

It's been a continuously used name for over 20 years.

Over 30 years for Nintendo.

Turkish said:

Playstation makes big money and let others make big money, it's how 3rd parties survive. PSN until recently was making more money than all of Nintendo, that storefront alone is worth $.

This may be so but why is it that by the metric YOU brought up, Nintendo is currently valued more highly than PlayStation?

KLAMarine said:
Turkish said:

4. one of the most valuable brands http://brandirectory.com/league_tables/table/global-500-2016

That's a table from 2016, I believe. http://brandirectory.com/league_tables/table/global-500-2017 is showing something slightly different:

...

Nintendo's 355 to PlayStation's 479.

Why might this be?

Recall you stated before that

Turkish said:

If Sony spun off Playstation, it would be worth more than Nintendo alone.


JWeinCom on 26 August 2017
Turkish said:
JWeinCom said:

The reason that people use months old data, is because since stocks do change people tend to give market caps at particular benchmarks, such as the end of a fiscal year, as the person I was replying to did.  I provided the link to specifically show that this data is not definitive proof, as that person was claiming.  I further explained that market cap is not equivelant to the worth of the company.  Cause it's not.

Uhhh... 

I don't know why we're going to look at just one quarter of financial results to determine company value.  I also was completely unaware that the Switch was already "their most popular console", or that console launches were supposed to be a particularly profitable time.  Considering that Sony lost about 128 billion yen after the PS4 launch, maybe we shouldn't expect this to be Nintendo's most profitable time.

In other words, pointing out that Sony's profits were a hundred million dollars or so more in one quarter is a pretty poor argument to show that Sony is more profitable or more popular.


Your personal travels are meaningless.  https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/anecdotal  When you actually do that representative poll worldwide, or can provide a link to one, let me know.  The only thing you posted that approaches evidence is the list of brands that you provided, but then quickly ignored when it showed that Nintendo is actually more popular.  

"In other words, pointing out that Sony's profits were a hundred million dollars or so more in one quarter is a pretty poor argument to show that Sony is more profitable or more popular." No one made that argument, the argument was that Playstation was more profitable and popular, not Sony. This interaction started whether a spun off Playstation would be worth more than Nintendo, as did the argument which company is worth more today. And about Nintendoes most popular console, of course I meant their fastest selling console.

Both my statements are correct. Playstation is indeed more profitable and popular as they sell more consoles and make more money, and Sony has a bigger market cap. Not sure what arguments need to be started here. You're right you don't need to hear about my travels, because you already know PS4 is indeed the best selling and most popular console on the maket, my anecdotes only explain Sony ain't lying.


Yeah, I used Sony when I meant playstation.  My bad.  I still have no idea how showing that the games/services division made more money in one quarter shows that they are more profitable.  That's like... not how business works. 

If you meant fastest selling, you should have said fastest selling... because that is not synonymous.  Either way it's completely irrelevant to the point you were making.  Again, Sony lost money as they launched the PS4.  So there's no reason to expect a launch to be a profitable time, or to expect that this will be the most profitable point of the switch's lifespan.

As I've said several times... market cap is not the value of a company...  Even if it were, Sony's market value is slightly higher than Nintendo's... that's all of Sony.  So unless every other Sony division is less than worthless (worth negative dollars) then I don't see how the playstation division can be worth more than Nintendo.

Playstation 4 is the most popular console on the market... which doesn't really have much to do with whether the Playstation division is worth more than Nintendo.  But yay for them, I guess?

Of course Sony ain't lying.  I'm sure Sony has people who know how to properly evaluate a company's worth, and wouldn't be saying these kinds of nonsensical things.  



Peach_buggy on 26 August 2017

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_highest-grossing_media_franchises

You only need to look at this, really. THE biggest entertainment franchise in the history of entertainment. Nintendo is the major shareholder of this. That IP alone is probably worth more than any Sony division could even dream of being. Nintendo isn't going anywhere. If you are going to discuss the value of a company, surely IP's should come into the equation? That IP right there is probably worth almost unaccountable amounts.