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Forums - Nintendo - Wii U won’t make Achievements Mandatory for all games.

DarthVolod on 18 September 2012
jlrx said:
DarthVolod said:
UltimateUnknown said:
DarthVolod said:

I really don't understand the negative reaction achievements/trophies get from some people. Perhaps, it is because a feature that both ps3/360 (and their successors will likely use) have that the Wii U will not have which, no matter how you slice it, takes away from the value of the product.

You can certainly argue that it is pointless, and it is something that you will never use, but that does not change the fact that there are plenty of gamers that care about it enough to the point where they will wait on a purchase of the system because of it. It comes down to a simple rule that less features = less overall value of a product in a general sense.

Substitute achievements with anything else ... let's take Netflix as an example. I don't use Netflix, and I don't care to ever use it, but if a system does not support it then it will lose customers who love that feature. Even though I don't use Netflix, and I have my own biased/elitist feelings against it (prefer to own physical blurays and to see films in theaters) I can understand why others would see the service as valuable, and I would think it would be a strike against a system (in a general sense) if it did not include access to that feature.

When you think about it, achievements have been a part of gaming since long before the Xbox 360. I can still remember the pride and enjoyment derived from getting a high score on an arcade cabinet and attaching my initials to it. Even Nintendo has embraced "achievements" for certain games like Zelda which has always had a collectible component to go after. It is not about epeen or anything so immature it is simply another way to enjoy gaming (a kind of meta-game that makes gaming experiences more pragmatic and connected then they otherwise would be). All gamers are asking for is a unified system where one can see a quick list of your accomplishments and compare those with friends.

I don't see the harm in this ... especially since multiplats will have lists anyways thanks to 360/ps3. Not including achievements and a basic system to gather and report them back to the player just sounds like laziness to me ... if it is so taxing for Nintendo to implement this then just crowdsource the process of making a list of achievements for each game (maybe that could be a way to make Nintendo's achievement system unique).

It is also foolish as this will most certaintly result in lost sales (most likely am going to cancel my preorder and just wait until a nice bundle comes out like I did for the Wii).

This is exactly the point. Although I don't agree with canceling pre-order just because the system won't have a unified achievement system, I don't see why Nintendo would not include it. I suppose Nintendo are trying to make it so developers aren't forced to put them in if they don't want to, but I don't see how it's so hard. Games really do need achievements these days since they tend to guide people by the nose. Some of those higher end achievements can give you a real sense of accomplishment in an otherwise easy game. Mile High Club on Call of Duty 4 comes to mind. It's like the old days where you have to try one level 50 times before you finally get it and you feel awesome about it.

So yeah, although this may not be a deal breaking feature, it still gives customers more overall value, which is always a good thing.

I may hang on to the preorder and buy the system, but the lack of achievements means I will probably cut back on the games I would otherwise buy. I'll probably just grab Mario and Zombie U ... I would have gotten Mass Effect 3 again in order to give it another playthru and get Nintendo's achievements, but I'll probably wait on it because of this.

Multiplatform games will be an automatic buy on the Xbox 360 (PS3 owners should do the same as well) for me by virtue of achievements alone (why not since the games will otherwise be the same?)

I think developers really woud not have to do any work whatsoever since they are already making achievements and implementing them into games for the 360/PS3 anyways so it is not a new demand Nintendo would have to put on them. Seems like a missed opportunity to me.

I totally agree about acheivements adding value. Last game I played was Spec Ops: The Line. I probably would not have even attempted FUBAR difficulty if not for achievements, but it makes the game that much more challenging and rewarding and it turns a 8 hour game into a 20 hr game.


You just took the same crazy complaint that people are parroting and repeated it with the assumption that there are no acheivements instead of the system simply being optional to developers and those acheivements showing in miiverse vs developers choosing not to do so if they wanted not to (most would want to)

To clarify, the issue here is not necessarily achievements in and of themselves. Wii U will lack a centralized mandatory achievement system akin to those seen on 360/PS3. Achievements may be there as an afterthought, or they may not be there at all depending on the game. Without a requirement and a centralized way to organize those achievements we will not be able to track them and organize them like we can with 360 and PS3 ... thus a crucial part of their appeal (their meta game quality and the ability to compare them) will be lost.

I don't think I am confusing anything here unless Nintendo has released more statements regarding this. In general, they seem to have a "hands off" approach to achievements unlike Sony and Microsoft who require them. Achievements may exist, but they will likely be similiar to Metroid Prime Trilogy and Wii Sports Resort where they are isolatated on a game by game basis with no central structure or persistant score/level.

That is what people are complaining about here. We wanted a system similiar to 360/PS3 with maybe some new features unique to Wii U.

Either way, we don't know 100% how this will be implemented yet which is why I am being cautious, and I would recommend that others who care about achievements take the same approach. Maybe there will be a centralized system or a defacto centralized system ... I don't know so it is a wait and see thing.

Optional achievements may also mean that some developers will not bother implementing them (Nintendo themselves included) which would mean that some games may not have achievements at all.



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DieAppleDie on 18 September 2012

Jumpin
"Achievements are a gimmick used to pad games with monotonous goals for the most gullible of gamers."

i second this



DarthVolod on 18 September 2012
Jumpin said:
Achievements are a gimmick used to pad games with monotonous goals for the most gullible of gamers.


They can be, but they can also encourage players to play a game in different and new ways they would otherwise not. Halo games are usually have some great ones like this in the form of vidmaster achievements (ODST had some good ones) or, most recently, with achievements like "Never tell me the odds" (which was a ton of fun to do and it is quite hillarious with friends ... turns a rather boring level into a fun nail-biter of a race.

There are plenty of examples of this (Valve has a lot of great achievements like this too that really add new and fun challenges to the main game ... Gnome Chompski achievement for example).

I agree that a lot of developers don't care about them though and they just put in "beat game on X difficulty" and "Kill X with X weapon X times."

When you think about it, they are a lot like collectibles ... they can be fun and add value to the game (Bioshock audiologs) or they can just waste your time and add nothing of value to the game (Call of Duty intel). It is up to the developer to make them interesting.



theRepublic on 18 September 2012
S.T.A.G.E. said:
theRepublic said:
The only good achievements/trophies are the ones that come with in-game unlockables. Otherwise they are a pointless waste of time. I don't know why people bother.

In game unlockables aren't an incentive to complete all a game has to offer. Achievements are in many respects. They add points to your community status for your ability to complete or at least majorly finish a title that you've purchased. In game unlockables are old-school, they should already be there. Nintendo games will probably already have this by default, but the thing Nintendo needs to understand is that competitive gaming and social gaming period has evolved without them online and otherwise. They need to catch up or become secondary to the very dedicated gamers who could become potential buyers. Every little thing helps and adds up to the possibility of gaining more of a serious fanbase for the console. The Wii did not have this, it was just smothered by casuals who didn't care. If being a completionist isn't applicable in todays systems, you must truly only be after the casuals. I am not putting this all on Nintendo, but one must remember that its on third parties to create the trophy availability, but it's also on Nintendo to make it a dedicated part of the system. If they aren't there it might also turn people off of gaming competitively on multiplats. Now, I am not speaking for all, but it has affected people psychologically if you think about it as times have progressed .

@bold

That makes zero sense.  Your logic is that achievements that unlock more of the game are not an incentive, but achievements that do absolutely nothing are an incentive?  What?



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S.T.A.G.E. on 18 September 2012
theRepublic said:
S.T.A.G.E. said:
theRepublic said:
The only good achievements/trophies are the ones that come with in-game unlockables. Otherwise they are a pointless waste of time. I don't know why people bother.

In game unlockables aren't an incentive to complete all a game has to offer. Achievements are in many respects. They add points to your community status for your ability to complete or at least majorly finish a title that you've purchased. In game unlockables are old-school, they should already be there. Nintendo games will probably already have this by default, but the thing Nintendo needs to understand is that competitive gaming and social gaming period has evolved without them online and otherwise. They need to catch up or become secondary to the very dedicated gamers who could become potential buyers. Every little thing helps and adds up to the possibility of gaining more of a serious fanbase for the console. The Wii did not have this, it was just smothered by casuals who didn't care. If being a completionist isn't applicable in todays systems, you must truly only be after the casuals. I am not putting this all on Nintendo, but one must remember that its on third parties to create the trophy availability, but it's also on Nintendo to make it a dedicated part of the system. If they aren't there it might also turn people off of gaming competitively on multiplats. Now, I am not speaking for all, but it has affected people psychologically if you think about it as times have progressed .

@bold

That makes zero sense.  Your logic is that achievements that unlock more of the game are not an incentive, but achievements that do absolutely nothing are an incentive?  What?


Unlockables are just extra treats for winning (extra characters, concept art, etc), which have been going on for years. Trophies are a better example than achievements because it puts your standings in a weighted manner on PSN. Achievements are just points and you can boast while you rack them up.Nevertheless achievements add hours to your gameplay on a single title if you are up to the challenge.Try multiplayer, unlock x number of items, achieve y in multiplayer. Trophies are mostly talked about by hobbyist gamers, but in todays world without achievements and trophies people would immediately rent out their games after they play them,which is like within one to two weeks or less. Very few games are staying on people shelves. They were talking about it on bonus round. 



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jlrx on 18 September 2012
S.T.A.G.E. said:
theRepublic said:
S.T.A.G.E. said:
theRepublic said:
The only good achievements/trophies are the ones that come with in-game unlockables. Otherwise they are a pointless waste of time. I don't know why people bother.

In game unlockables aren't an incentive to complete all a game has to offer. Achievements are in many respects. They add points to your community status for your ability to complete or at least majorly finish a title that you've purchased. In game unlockables are old-school, they should already be there. Nintendo games will probably already have this by default, but the thing Nintendo needs to understand is that competitive gaming and social gaming period has evolved without them online and otherwise. They need to catch up or become secondary to the very dedicated gamers who could become potential buyers. Every little thing helps and adds up to the possibility of gaining more of a serious fanbase for the console. The Wii did not have this, it was just smothered by casuals who didn't care. If being a completionist isn't applicable in todays systems, you must truly only be after the casuals. I am not putting this all on Nintendo, but one must remember that its on third parties to create the trophy availability, but it's also on Nintendo to make it a dedicated part of the system. If they aren't there it might also turn people off of gaming competitively on multiplats. Now, I am not speaking for all, but it has affected people psychologically if you think about it as times have progressed .

@bold

That makes zero sense.  Your logic is that achievements that unlock more of the game are not an incentive, but achievements that do absolutely nothing are an incentive?  What?


Unlockables are just extra treats for winning (extra characters, concept art, etc), which have been going on for years. Trophies are a better example than achievements because it puts your standings in a weighted manner on PSN. Achievements are just points and you can boast while you rack them up.Nevertheless achievements add hours to your gameplay on a single title if you are up to the challenge.Try multiplayer, unlock x number of items, achieve y in multiplayer. Trophies are mostly talked about by hobbyist gamers, but in todays world without achievements and trophies people would immediately rent out their games after they play them,which is like within one to two weeks or less. Very few games are staying on people shelves. They were talking about it on bonus round. 


Which is exactly the impetus developers have to use achievements these days whether or not they are mandatory, its extra revenue, keeps the game in the persons posession and allows for DLC that adds more achievements to be sold. Since they stated it would be integrated with Miiverse for those who chose to use them, it seems a great solution



theRepublic on 18 September 2012
S.T.A.G.E. said:
theRepublic said:
S.T.A.G.E. said:
theRepublic said:
The only good achievements/trophies are the ones that come with in-game unlockables. Otherwise they are a pointless waste of time. I don't know why people bother.

In game unlockables aren't an incentive to complete all a game has to offer. Achievements are in many respects. They add points to your community status for your ability to complete or at least majorly finish a title that you've purchased. In game unlockables are old-school, they should already be there. Nintendo games will probably already have this by default, but the thing Nintendo needs to understand is that competitive gaming and social gaming period has evolved without them online and otherwise. They need to catch up or become secondary to the very dedicated gamers who could become potential buyers. Every little thing helps and adds up to the possibility of gaining more of a serious fanbase for the console. The Wii did not have this, it was just smothered by casuals who didn't care. If being a completionist isn't applicable in todays systems, you must truly only be after the casuals. I am not putting this all on Nintendo, but one must remember that its on third parties to create the trophy availability, but it's also on Nintendo to make it a dedicated part of the system. If they aren't there it might also turn people off of gaming competitively on multiplats. Now, I am not speaking for all, but it has affected people psychologically if you think about it as times have progressed .

@bold

That makes zero sense.  Your logic is that achievements that unlock more of the game are not an incentive, but achievements that do absolutely nothing are an incentive?  What?


Unlockables are just extra treats for winning (extra characters, concept art, etc), which have been going on for years. Trophies are a better example than achievements because it puts your standings in a weighted manner on PSN. Achievements are just points and you can boast while you rack them up.Nevertheless achievements add hours to your gameplay on a single title if you are up to the challenge.Try multiplayer, unlock x number of items, achieve y in multiplayer. Trophies are mostly talked about by hobbyist gamers, but in todays world without achievements and trophies people would immediately rent out their games after they play them,which is like within one to two weeks or less. Very few games are staying on people shelves. They were talking about it on bonus round. 

Unlockables do all that too, and you actually get something for your effort.



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S.T.A.G.E. on 19 September 2012
RolStoppable said:
theRepublic said:
S.T.A.G.E. said:

In game unlockables aren't an incentive to complete all a game has to offer. Achievements are in many respects. 

@bold

That makes zero sense.  Your logic is that achievements that unlock more of the game are not an incentive, but achievements that do absolutely nothing are an incentive?  What?

His point is that being able to show off your Gamerscore/Trophy Level is very important, because this is what separates hardcore gamers from pesky casual gamers. But he also admits that this is only the case because the industry has managed to successfully brainwash hardcore gamers.


Not true. The problem is casuals dont invest long enough into their purchases. You know very well that the mass of casuals are compulsive shoppers, shopping seasonally because of mostly children in the gaming realm. The only ones taking advantage of the games (which the usages are recorded online) are the hardcore. They finish these games in no time and they are the first to throw the games away, not casuals. The casuals are the brainwashed ones buying the same shit every year, looking for the next novelty. Hardcore gamers look for a reason to collect games, invest in learning how to master a game and other things. Trophies are incentives and clues in how to truly complete all a game has to offer. Unlocking goodies are awesome but trophies add that sense of value in for the time spent. It's more of an intrinsic reward than a concrete, realistic one, but then again...so are the unlockables. You cant hold the rewards in your hand, so you might as well enjoy them while you're in game. Dude...I could've sworn somewhere this forum has achievements as well. Gamers are gaining points from Gamestop and social places. It's becoming a part of gaming culture and I just want Nintendo to catch up in the proper manner, thats all.



S.T.A.G.E. on 19 September 2012
theRepublic said:
S.T.A.G.E. said:
theRepublic said:
S.T.A.G.E. said:
theRepublic said:
The only good achievements/trophies are the ones that come with in-game unlockables. Otherwise they are a pointless waste of time. I don't know why people bother.

In game unlockables aren't an incentive to complete all a game has to offer. Achievements are in many respects. They add points to your community status for your ability to complete or at least majorly finish a title that you've purchased. In game unlockables are old-school, they should already be there. Nintendo games will probably already have this by default, but the thing Nintendo needs to understand is that competitive gaming and social gaming period has evolved without them online and otherwise. They need to catch up or become secondary to the very dedicated gamers who could become potential buyers. Every little thing helps and adds up to the possibility of gaining more of a serious fanbase for the console. The Wii did not have this, it was just smothered by casuals who didn't care. If being a completionist isn't applicable in todays systems, you must truly only be after the casuals. I am not putting this all on Nintendo, but one must remember that its on third parties to create the trophy availability, but it's also on Nintendo to make it a dedicated part of the system. If they aren't there it might also turn people off of gaming competitively on multiplats. Now, I am not speaking for all, but it has affected people psychologically if you think about it as times have progressed .

@bold

That makes zero sense.  Your logic is that achievements that unlock more of the game are not an incentive, but achievements that do absolutely nothing are an incentive?  What?


Unlockables are just extra treats for winning (extra characters, concept art, etc), which have been going on for years. Trophies are a better example than achievements because it puts your standings in a weighted manner on PSN. Achievements are just points and you can boast while you rack them up.Nevertheless achievements add hours to your gameplay on a single title if you are up to the challenge.Try multiplayer, unlock x number of items, achieve y in multiplayer. Trophies are mostly talked about by hobbyist gamers, but in todays world without achievements and trophies people would immediately rent out their games after they play them,which is like within one to two weeks or less. Very few games are staying on people shelves. They were talking about it on bonus round. 

Unlockables do all that too, and you actually get something for your effort.


Unlockables last only as long as your save file. In this day and age I would rather have a collectors edition with real bonus material than unlock concept art from a game. Again, I like the extra characters, but with companies screwing us over left and right with paying for DLC achievements are the challenge for the hobbyist gamer who plays on the 360 and PS3. These are the gamers Nintendo lacked to interest last gen and want this with their next gen console.



amp316 on 19 September 2012

I personally think that it's a mistake. While I don't care if I getting a platinum trophy for completing a game on super duper hardcore elite mode while frying bacon naked, many people do.



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