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Forums - Politics Discussion - What do you think of wikileaks?

Kasz216 said:
Kantor said:
RedInker said:

Assange is a prick and should stop cowering in an embassy and go to Sweden to face trial. Innocent people dont seek asylum in foreign embassies. We dont need this site anyway as all documents will eventually get made public under the freedom of information act. Goverments do need to keep some secrets in the same way business' do.

The hundreds of people who seek asylum in Europe and America from the middle east aren't innocent?

He didn't sexually assault anybody. The crimes with which he is charged are not a part of any sensible definition of sexual assault.

Actually, if you read the actual sweedish police reports they are.

The police reports state that he violently tore her clothes and held her down and penetrated her as she tried to escape and said she didn't want to have sex.

If that isn't a sensible definition of sexual assault i'd like to ask what the fuck is a sensible definition of sexual assault.

The "in sweeden rape isn't really rape" comments were nothing but a blatant sexist propagana smokescreen to blame the victims and get public support on his side because he knew the police records couldn't be released unless leaked.


And then when said police reports WERE leaked and did show that... he threw a fit, cause you know.  He's all about not having transparency when it involves rape I guess.

A few things are important to note here.

Firstly, after his first round of questioning, the investigation was stopped, and the chief prosecutor said that there was no reason to suspect him of sexual assault. It was resumed with no apparent trigger a few months later, when he moved to the UK. What caused this?

Secondly, he has yet to be formally charged with any crime. He is wanted for a round of questioning which could easily take place over the phone. So why does Sweden want him so badly?

Thirdly, the British government has gone to great effort to surround the Ecuadorean embassy with police, fill the corridors and at one point threaten to storm the embassy, to arrest a man who has been charged with nothing so that he can be extradited on the evidence of nothing except questionable testimony.

There is SOMETHING going on here, even on the off chance that he is guilty of this sexual assault.



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Kantor said:
Kasz216 said:
Kantor said:
RedInker said:

Assange is a prick and should stop cowering in an embassy and go to Sweden to face trial. Innocent people dont seek asylum in foreign embassies. We dont need this site anyway as all documents will eventually get made public under the freedom of information act. Goverments do need to keep some secrets in the same way business' do.

The hundreds of people who seek asylum in Europe and America from the middle east aren't innocent?

He didn't sexually assault anybody. The crimes with which he is charged are not a part of any sensible definition of sexual assault.

Actually, if you read the actual sweedish police reports they are.

The police reports state that he violently tore her clothes and held her down and penetrated her as she tried to escape and said she didn't want to have sex.

If that isn't a sensible definition of sexual assault i'd like to ask what the fuck is a sensible definition of sexual assault.

The "in sweeden rape isn't really rape" comments were nothing but a blatant sexist propagana smokescreen to blame the victims and get public support on his side because he knew the police records couldn't be released unless leaked.


And then when said police reports WERE leaked and did show that... he threw a fit, cause you know.  He's all about not having transparency when it involves rape I guess.

A few things are important to note here.

A)Firstly, after his first round of questioning, the investigation was stopped, and the chief prosecutor said that there was no reason to suspect him of sexual assault. It was resumed with no apparent trigger a few months later, when he moved to the UK. What caused this?

Secondly, he has yet to be formally charged with any crime. He is wanted for a round of questioning which could easily take place over the phone. So why does Sweden want him so badly?

Thirdly, the British government has gone to great effort to surround the Ecuadorean embassy with police, fill the corridors and at one point threaten to storm the embassy, to arrest a man who has been charged with nothing so that he can be extradited on the evidence of nothing except questionable testimony.

There is SOMETHING going on here, even on the off chance that he is guilty of this sexual assault.

A) They found the second victim and concinved her to talk... and physical evidence came back from lab.

B) In sweeden you can't officially charge him with a crime until the end of an interview.   They want to question him in person, so they can arrest him and charge him with a crime.  They can't do the interview over the phone, because they won't be able to arrest him afterwords and charge him with a crime.

This is done so that the stigma of being charged with a crime only applies after you get out your side of the story to the police, no matter how guilty you might be, like in the case of Julian Assange.  Since they didn't charge him the first time, they have to wait till they interview him again before they can charge him.

C) Because he's a world renown figure trying to use his power to skirt the law... and has made the UK look like a complete ass in doing so.



HappySqurriel said:
fordy said:
HappySqurriel said:
100% against wikileaks ...

You don't promote a free an open society by leaking information, which ultimately will require the government to be far less open; you promote a free and open society by demanding transparancy from your government.


So I guess that makes freedom of the press close to obsolete...


With the press there is accountability and ethics, with wikileaks there is neither ...

*ROFL*



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HappySqurriel said:

If I was involved in the government doing immoral things I would be a whistle blower, not an information leaker ...

While a whistle blower may only reveal one side of the story you can evaluate their motives, an information leaker remains annonymous and their motivations are kept secret. A whistle blower (typically) acts from a position of trying to do the right thing (because the act of speaking out generally destroys their career), while an information leaker typically acts for personal gain.

 


So Deep Throat was an information leaker (not a whistle blower) and what he did was wrong?



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Mr Khan said:
KungKras said:

Why swedish? xD

idk. I kinda get the Swedish vibe from the word "wiki."

"Wiki" (pronounced [ˈwiti] or [ˈviti]) is a Hawaiian word meaning "fast" or "quick".

( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiki )

So it is an Hawaiian diaper?



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HappySqurriel said:

You don't seem to understand how much there is to gain and lose from the government ...

There are elections and bills, the budgets of massive pseudo-governmental bodies, gigantic unions, and hundreds of millions of dollars in government contracts to corporations that can be impacted by the release of sensitive information. The release of documents that suggest inappropriate dealings with Lockheed Martin would impact the $34 Billion in contracts they have, and this would produce substantial opportunity to make money for someone who was motivated.

You live in a country with a remarkably corrupt government that is full of rent-seeking special interest groups and you believe the bullshit you're fed that the "leaked" information is for ethical reasons rather than personal gain; and you foolishly believe these people remain anonymous because of the consequences, rather than the obvious reason that they can't continue to gain from the knowledge they leak if they don't continue to work in their current job.

Until you demand transparency from your government the only information you will get is information that someone decided to give you; which will (more often than not) be to suit their needs not yours.

Take yourtheoretical example that has nothing to do with actual leaks from WikiLeaks: There is a simple ward against leaks about governmental contracts for personal gain - make the contracts public from the beginning. It's taxpayers money that is used here, the one paying should know what he is paying for. If all governmental contracts are open, an possible leaker has nothing to gain.



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I fully support the intent of organizations like Wikileaks. I am all for more transparency in government, either willingly from the government or unwilling through groups like Wikileaks. It's arguable Wikileaks had a hand in starting the Tunisian uprisings, with its leaking of information about the Tunisian ruling class' lavish lifestyle.

Wikileaks (and the information age in general) helps to ensure that people are in control of their governments, as opposed to governments being in control of their people.

Though it's funny watching the far right patriotic types around me contort themselves over this issue. People like my dad are convinced Obama is secretly up to no good, signing stuff in back rooms all over the world that'll take all our guns away and sell us out to Russia, but when a whistle-blowing group like Wikileaks pops up, suddenly its all "they'll reveal our secrets and hurt our troops! Treasonous swine!" Then they go on continuing to believe the exact type of conspiracies an organization like Wikileaks would reveal.



Definitely support them. As someone else in this topic said, they should have taken out specific names before leaking certain classified intel, but as a whole they are good for our country. It's important the everyday citizen has an idea and how our government has a hand in so much shit. The more informed we are the more power we have.



fordy said:

 

And let's be clear here. Assange has yet to be charged by Sweden. They wish to question him against sexual allegations. Those are two completely different things. In fact:

- Assange's lawyers offered Swedish authorities to question him in London about the alleged rape. They refused.

There is nothing wrong with this. Someone under charge has the obligation to be tried under the jurisdiction in which the alleged offence was committed, 

- Ecuadrian officials stated that they would not grant Assange asylum if Sweden cold assure them that they would not extradite Assange to the US. Sweden could not make that assurance.

- British officials seem rather intent to storm a a foreign embassy, all in the name of sending some guy to Sweden for QUESTIONING (once again, not charges).

 

So yeah, anyone who has been keeping up with this story can see that this is not just some simple "he's running away" thing. Foreign countries are deeply interested in getting him to Sweden for mere questioning.

Why shouldn't he be questioned under the jurisdiction - and in the same country - that the alleged offence took place? Now it just looks like he's running away from that situation as well as everything else. Not promising.

As for Wikileaks, I'm all for transparacy but I think anyone leaking official documents should do so with tact. 



Highwaystar101 said: trashleg said that if I didn't pay back the money she leant me, she would come round and break my legs... That's why people call her trashleg, because she trashes the legs of the people she loan sharks money to.
trashleg said:
fordy said:

 

And let's be clear here. Assange has yet to be charged by Sweden. They wish to question him against sexual allegations. Those are two completely different things. In fact:

- Assange's lawyers offered Swedish authorities to question him in London about the alleged rape. They refused.

There is nothing wrong with this. Someone under charge has the obligation to be tried under the jurisdiction in which the alleged offence was committed, 

- Ecuadrian officials stated that they would not grant Assange asylum if Sweden cold assure them that they would not extradite Assange to the US. Sweden could not make that assurance.

- British officials seem rather intent to storm a a foreign embassy, all in the name of sending some guy to Sweden for QUESTIONING (once again, not charges).

 

So yeah, anyone who has been keeping up with this story can see that this is not just some simple "he's running away" thing. Foreign countries are deeply interested in getting him to Sweden for mere questioning.

Why shouldn't he be questioned under the jurisdiction - and in the same country - that the alleged offence took place? Now it just looks like he's running away from that situation as well as everything else. Not promising.

As for Wikileaks, I'm all for transparacy but I think anyone leaking official documents should do so with tact. 


Didn't you read my reply? Ecuador were willing to work with Sweden in this matter, but the fact that Sweden could not assure anyone that Assange would not be extradited to a 3rd country such as the US was the reason why Ecuador granted Assange political asylum. If they could have assured Ecuador otherwise, then they would have had the opportunity to question him.

You can't be "all for transparency" and attach conditions. The reason why the leaked documents came as a shock were the sheer quantity and nature of them. No amount of diplomacy would have lightened the blow, but had the US government did it's job towards transparency in the first place, they could have set the conditions as to what way these documents were released. Let's not forget, this is a failure to act by the government, so journalism had to play the role. Yes, that does make people think that the government betrayed them, as all journalistic discoveries do.