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Forums - Politics Discussion - What do you think of wikileaks?

fordy said:
trashleg said:

Why shouldn't he be questioned under the jurisdiction - and in the same country - that the alleged offence took place? Now it just looks like he's running away from that situation as well as everything else. Not promising.

As for Wikileaks, I'm all for transparacy but I think anyone leaking official documents should do so with tact. 


Didn't you read my reply? Ecuador were willing to work with Sweden in this matter, but the fact that Sweden could not assure anyone that Assange would not be extradited to a 3rd country such as the US was the reason why Ecuador granted Assange political asylum. If they could have assured Ecuador otherwise, then they would have had the opportunity to question him.

You can't be "all for transparency" and attach conditions. The reason why the leaked documents came as a shock were the sheer quantity and nature of them. No amount of diplomacy would have lightened the blow, but had the US government did it's job towards transparency in the first place, they could have set the conditions as to what way these documents were released. Let's not forget, this is a failure to act by the government, so journalism had to play the role. Yes, that does make people think that the government betrayed them, as all journalistic discoveries do.

Sorry, guess I didn't read it properly. I know I'd rather he wasn't in Britain, and I do agree that he should have the courtesy at least of being questioned by one jurisdiction without fear of extradition to another for the time being, but all this country-hopping is a bit of a farce and confuses things. Whose judicial system is he supposed to be obeying when he's hacked US systems (an offence regardless), wanted for questioning in Sweden and is hiding in the Ecuadorian embassy in England? It's like something out of a satirical sketch show.


I am all for transparency. But I do believe that there would have been a better way to do it. I understand what you're saying about the government, they should be more transparent and Wikileaks wouldn't be necessary. I suppose they underestimated the power of technology and I hope governments worldwide keep one step ahead from now on. 



Highwaystar101 said: trashleg said that if I didn't pay back the money she leant me, she would come round and break my legs... That's why people call her trashleg, because she trashes the legs of the people she loan sharks money to.
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fordy said:
trashleg said:
fordy said:

 

And let's be clear here. Assange has yet to be charged by Sweden. They wish to question him against sexual allegations. Those are two completely different things. In fact:

- Assange's lawyers offered Swedish authorities to question him in London about the alleged rape. They refused.

There is nothing wrong with this. Someone under charge has the obligation to be tried under the jurisdiction in which the alleged offence was committed, 

- Ecuadrian officials stated that they would not grant Assange asylum if Sweden cold assure them that they would not extradite Assange to the US. Sweden could not make that assurance.

- British officials seem rather intent to storm a a foreign embassy, all in the name of sending some guy to Sweden for QUESTIONING (once again, not charges).

 

So yeah, anyone who has been keeping up with this story can see that this is not just some simple "he's running away" thing. Foreign countries are deeply interested in getting him to Sweden for mere questioning.

Why shouldn't he be questioned under the jurisdiction - and in the same country - that the alleged offence took place? Now it just looks like he's running away from that situation as well as everything else. Not promising.

As for Wikileaks, I'm all for transparacy but I think anyone leaking official documents should do so with tact. 


Didn't you read my reply? Ecuador were willing to work with Sweden in this matter, but the fact that Sweden could not assure anyone that Assange would not be extradited to a 3rd country such as the US was the reason why Ecuador granted Assange political asylum. If they could have assured Ecuador otherwise, then they would have had the opportunity to question him.

You can't be "all for transparency" and attach conditions. The reason why the leaked documents came as a shock were the sheer quantity and nature of them. No amount of diplomacy would have lightened the blow, but had the US government did it's job towards transparency in the first place, they could have set the conditions as to what way these documents were released. Let's not forget, this is a failure to act by the government, so journalism had to play the role. Yes, that does make people think that the government betrayed them, as all journalistic discoveries do.

Except you know.   Sweden DID explicity assure this.

"Sweden does not extradite individuals who risk facing the death penalty," a Swedish Foreign Ministry spokeswoman said, implicitly referring to the possibility Assange could be charged with crimes eligible for the death penalty in the United States, with whom it has an extradition agreement.

Any claims to the contrary are pure bull.



Kasz216 said:

Except you know.   Sweden DID explicity assure this.

"Sweden does not extradite individuals who risk facing the death penalty," a Swedish Foreign Ministry spokeswoman said, implicitly referring to the possibility Assange could be charged with crimes eligible for the death penalty in the United States, with whom it has an extradition agreement.

Any claims to the contrary are pure bull.

Well, that's implicit, not explicit.

And that's not really an assurance that he wouldn't be extradited to the US at all. It just means that Sweden would first want assurances that he wouldn't face the death penalty - which he wouldn't in all likelihood, anyway.



Mnementh said:
HappySqurriel said:
 

If I was involved in the government doing immoral things I would be a whistle blower, not an information leaker ...

While a whistle blower may only reveal one side of the story you can evaluate their motives, an information leaker remains annonymous and their motivations are kept secret. A whistle blower (typically) acts from a position of trying to do the right thing (because the act of speaking out generally destroys their career), while an information leaker typically acts for personal gain.

 


So Deep Throat was an information leaker (not a whistle blower) and what he did was wrong?

Being that deep throat was Mark Felt and likely acted leaked the information on watergate because Nixon didn't make him FBI director and not for ethical reasons (being that his career is full of acts of questionable ethics) it is the perfect example of what I am talking about ... He leaked information not because he thought the Watergate breakin was wrong but because the leaking of infomation would benefit him personally.



badgenome said:
Kasz216 said:

Except you know.   Sweden DID explicity assure this.

"Sweden does not extradite individuals who risk facing the death penalty," a Swedish Foreign Ministry spokeswoman said, implicitly referring to the possibility Assange could be charged with crimes eligible for the death penalty in the United States, with whom it has an extradition agreement.

Any claims to the contrary are pure bull.

Well, that's implicit, not explicit.

And that's not really an assurance that he wouldn't be extradited to the US at all. It just means that Sweden would first want assurances that he wouldn't face the death penalty - which he wouldn't in all likelihood, anyway.


If they assured it in the press, I'm sure they would personally, even though the whole thing is a joke anyway.

Afterall the UK-US extradition treaty is heavily favors the US in pretty much getting anyone in Britian they want.

While Sweden actually has plenty of room to refuse.

Between the UK and Sweeden, Assange is safer from the US in Sweeden.

He just stayed in the UK because he had rich friends there and it's safer to avoid charges of rape.

And now he's asking for asylum from one of the countries in the world where there is about ZERO freedom and speech and trasnperancy?

Why?  He knows they have a problem with the UK, and he can play them off the UK, because they would love to thumb their nose at the UK at about anything right now.

It's all a pure bs smoke trail of a guy trying to avoid rape charges.



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Kasz216 said:

It's all a pure bs smoke trail of a guy trying to avoid rape charges.

Agreed.



badgenome said:
Kasz216 said:

It's all a pure bs smoke trail of a guy trying to avoid rape charges.

Agreed.

Well to blow further holes in the nuttery

"The Swedish government has said through its ambassador in Australia that they won't extradite in circumstances that involve intelligence or the military. That they won't extradite where there is no comparable offence in Swedish law, and where there's a capital offence involved. I believe that the government of neutral, democratic, Sweden, a liberal democracy, is not part of some fully blown CIA conspiracy."



Kasz216 said:

Well to blow further holes in the nuttery

"The Swedish government has said through its ambassador in Australia that they won't extradite in circumstances that involve intelligence or the military. That they won't extradite where there is no comparable offence in Swedish law, and where there's a capital offence involved. I believe that the government of neutral, democratic, Sweden, a liberal democracy, is not part of some fully blown CIA conspiracy."

Yeah. That sounds rather more ironclad than the other statement, which could have been merely for public consumption. The argument about the UK being more likely to extradite him to the US than Sweden is a pretty strong one, as well.



I prefer that something like Wikileaks exist and makes clearly governments nervous...



 

I changed my mind. Go Wikileaks, sock it to 'em.

Especially the CIA. Fuck those guys.



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.