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Forums - Politics - Sydney Sweeney does an ad for jeans, media throws a hissy fit

sundin13 said:

Hello, I'm someone on the left who has used less than kind words to talk about those who voted for Trump. My argument is not that the left is perfect. Quite the opposite actually. I think a lot of people on the left genuinely hate the left and I have a ton of criticisms of the ideology, the policy and the people. 

My argument is that the right has become so fundamentally vile that I believe no rationally acting individual can intelligently vote for them (with the exception of maybe billionaires acting for their own financial interests). I also feel that if someone decides to vote for Trump because some random asshole on the internet called them an idiot (it's me, I'm the asshole), they are proving the accusation true. 

Does that mean it is good policy to call people idiots? I mean, no, but that doesn't make it not true. 

Indeed, I was also about to say something along those lines. The thread has been drifting off in a direction where votes for fascism are being justified because the left is saying mean things. Voting out of spite is not rational behavior, it's the very essence of acting on emotions without giving it any thought.

Additionally, why are people acting as if it would only be the left that is looking down on people who don't agree with them when the USA has entire TV channels that are dedicated to be echo chambers for people who want to look down on the left.



Legend11 correctly predicted that GTA IV will outsell Super Smash Bros. Brawl. I was wrong.

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RolStoppable said:
sundin13 said:

Hello, I'm someone on the left who has used less than kind words to talk about those who voted for Trump. My argument is not that the left is perfect. Quite the opposite actually. I think a lot of people on the left genuinely hate the left and I have a ton of criticisms of the ideology, the policy and the people. 

My argument is that the right has become so fundamentally vile that I believe no rationally acting individual can intelligently vote for them (with the exception of maybe billionaires acting for their own financial interests). I also feel that if someone decides to vote for Trump because some random asshole on the internet called them an idiot (it's me, I'm the asshole), they are proving the accusation true. 

Does that mean it is good policy to call people idiots? I mean, no, but that doesn't make it not true. 

Indeed, I was also about to say something along those lines. The thread has been drifting off in a direction where votes for fascism are being justified because the left is saying mean things. Voting out of spite is not rational behavior, it's the very essence of acting on emotions without giving it any thought.

Additionally, why are people acting as if it would only be the left that is looking down on people who don't agree with them when the USA has entire TV channels that are dedicated to be echo chambers for people who want to look down on the left.

Why is it that when someone on the left does or says something ridiculous (eg. "This pants ad is Nazi propaganda"), it seems like the general reaction is "The left is awful and I'm not going to vote for them", but when someone on the right does or says something ridiculous (eg. "We need to turn America into a white ethnostate"), the general reaction is "Oh you can just ignore that guy"?



I really don't care and most people don't find this to be an issue. It's a loud minority upset by this. I would not be surprised if some of this outrage is completely manufactured to make it seem like more people care than they really do. Either way, its time to move.



RolStoppable said:
sundin13 said:

Hello, I'm someone on the left who has used less than kind words to talk about those who voted for Trump. My argument is not that the left is perfect. Quite the opposite actually. I think a lot of people on the left genuinely hate the left and I have a ton of criticisms of the ideology, the policy and the people. 

My argument is that the right has become so fundamentally vile that I believe no rationally acting individual can intelligently vote for them (with the exception of maybe billionaires acting for their own financial interests). I also feel that if someone decides to vote for Trump because some random asshole on the internet called them an idiot (it's me, I'm the asshole), they are proving the accusation true. 

Does that mean it is good policy to call people idiots? I mean, no, but that doesn't make it not true. 

Indeed, I was also about to say something along those lines. The thread has been drifting off in a direction where votes for fascism are being justified because the left is saying mean things. Voting out of spite is not rational behavior, it's the very essence of acting on emotions without giving it any thought.

Additionally, why are people acting as if it would only be the left that is looking down on people who don't agree with them when the USA has entire TV channels that are dedicated to be echo chambers for people who want to look down on the left.

Yeah the idea that people saw a lack of proper decorum on the left and so they voted in Trump isn't even internally consistent. 



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Chrkeller said:
IcaroRibeiro said:

You forgot about a 5th group.  Low income workers don't expect others to pay their bills.  Many people in the US would benefit from free college or Universal healthcare, but don't want it, because expecting others to carry our burden isn't part of our core belief. 

Many Americans genuinely believe in boot straps and simply don't want a charity based system.  Unless somebody has lived and experienced America, this is a hard concept to explain.  I know plenty of people who absolutely would not take money even if helped.  There is a pride aspect to taking care of ones self.  

For many middle Americans, social support is considered charity and being offered charity is offensive.  Many would rather live a modest life than reduce their pride by taking from others.  

This is a huge part of American culture that too many here, whom never have experienced first hand, simply don't understand.  

The idea "they dumb" is ****ing nonsense and reeks of ignorance.  

People in the Midwest don't want liberal help.  They are a very prideful group of people who are well aware of what liberals think of them.  Hence they vote the way they do.  

*I've lived 40+ years throughout the Midwest.

I’m sorry but this isn’t true, “middle America” loved “handouts” from the 1930s-1960s when the middle class was created through the use of progressive taxation to pay for investments & regulations in worker rights, safety net programs, healthcare, housing, education, agriculture, manufacturing, infrastructure, scientific research, environmental protections, etc.

During much of this time, black people were denied the benefits of these investments until the Civil Rights Acts were passed and now all of a sudden they were entitled to all the same benefits that white people were used to. Republicans seized on this and were able to frame black people as lazy, welfare queens that do drugs and commit crimes while taking away your hard earned tax dollars!

Two quotes exemplify this, “when you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression" and “If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you.”


*I’m a 33 year old working class, white dude who has lived in the rural Midwest my entire life



When the herd loses its way, the shepard must kill the bull that leads them astray.

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Chrkeller said:
IcaroRibeiro said:

This is the first group: The group of dumb people who are consciously voting against themselves for no rational reason 

I'm very familiar with them and don't need to live in USA to understand since there are plenty of them in Brazil, although not in the same volume as in USA

I guess it something cultural, but still strange. I guess not everyone has a built-in mechanism to be sympathetic for the less affortunated which explain the rich voting for pro-market candidates, but I thought at least voting for their own benefit would be the norm

Wrong.  Self sustained pride is part of their culture.  We shouldn't be bashing culture because it doesn't fit within our personal beliefs.

They are not part of the "dumb" group, because they aren't dumb.  Calling people dumb really isn't appropriate and doesn't add to the discussion.

Do you have any evidence for your claims other than being from the region? I mean I spent about 10 years in Wisconsin and 6 years in Michigan and was on WIC with my first kid in Michigan. It was a pain in the ass to get on the program but I didn't see any evidence that people were "living a modest life" because they didn't want to take free food when they qualified. 

https://news.cornell.edu/stories/2022/03/ideology-impacts-who-seeks-federal-benefits

From what I can tell Americans take up social services pretty well unless there are barriers put up around them. Do you have evidence that: 1. there's a difference in social services uptake in America compared to other countries and 2. this difference cannot be explained by differences in access such as the above?



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sundin13 said:
curl-6 said:

Yeah I've noticed this a lot too.

Among the louder elements of the left at least, there's always the sense that leftist ideology is perfect and beyond reproach and that anyone who doesn't agree with it is just a filthy ignorant subhuman fascist who can't be reasoned with.

This attitude alienates broad swathes of folks from groups like working class white people and straight men and drives them into the arms of the right, who then win them over by promising them "we don't hate you like the left does."

This is why the alt right has flourished in recent years, and if it's ever going to be defeated, this needs to change.

Hello, I'm someone on the left who has used less than kind words to talk about those who voted for Trump. My argument is not that the left is perfect. Quite the opposite actually. I think a lot of people on the left genuinely hate the left and I have a ton of criticisms of the ideology, the policy and the people. 

My argument is that the right has become so fundamentally vile that I believe no rationally acting individual can intelligently vote for them (with the exception of maybe billionaires acting for their own financial interests). I also feel that if someone decides to vote for Trump because some random asshole on the internet called them an idiot (it's me, I'm the asshole), they are proving the accusation true. 

Does that mean it is good policy to call people idiots? I mean, no, but that doesn't make it not true. 

It's just not an effective strategy; a substantial portion of the population are not rusted on hardcore MAGA and can be swayed, but talking down to people or labelling anyone who disagrees an idiot doesn't win over hearts and minds, it just pushes people away and hands the alt right free ammo.



smroadkill15 said:

I really don't care and most people don't find this to be an issue. It's a loud minority upset by this. I would not be surprised if some of this outrage is completely manufactured to make it seem like more people care than they really do. Either way, its time to move.

It's not even that loud of a minority.

I've seen far, far more from the right on this non-issue than the left. I wouldn't have even known the ad campaign was a thing at all until I saw right-wing "responses" to whatever outcry there may have been to some random left-wing critics. I'm gobsmacked that this thread is still going, to be honest. 



sundin13 said:
RolStoppable said:

Indeed, I was also about to say something along those lines. The thread has been drifting off in a direction where votes for fascism are being justified because the left is saying mean things. Voting out of spite is not rational behavior, it's the very essence of acting on emotions without giving it any thought.

Additionally, why are people acting as if it would only be the left that is looking down on people who don't agree with them when the USA has entire TV channels that are dedicated to be echo chambers for people who want to look down on the left.

Why is it that when someone on the left does or says something ridiculous (eg. "This pants ad is Nazi propaganda"), it seems like the general reaction is "The left is awful and I'm not going to vote for them", but when someone on the right does or says something ridiculous (eg. "We need to turn America into a white ethnostate"), the general reaction is "Oh you can just ignore that guy"?

The same people who are offended by "mean things" said by "the left," don't seem to be disturbed by Donald Trump threatening the sovereignty of countries like Canada, Denmark, or Panama. Or the vile things that are said in casual conversation about California, New York, Illinois, and other blue states on a daily basis. 

*Source: I lived in Oklahoma for 20 years, and talk about people there saying nasty things about people they don't agree with...



SanAndreasX said:
sundin13 said:

Why is it that when someone on the left does or says something ridiculous (eg. "This pants ad is Nazi propaganda"), it seems like the general reaction is "The left is awful and I'm not going to vote for them", but when someone on the right does or says something ridiculous (eg. "We need to turn America into a white ethnostate"), the general reaction is "Oh you can just ignore that guy"?

The same people who are offended by "mean things" said by "the left," don't seem to be disturbed by Donald Trump threatening the sovereignty of countries like Canada, Denmark, or Panama. Or the vile things that are said in casual conversation about California, New York, Illinois, and other blue states on a daily basis. 

*Source: I lived in Oklahoma for 20 years, and talk about people there saying nasty things about people they don't agree with...

It's entirely possible to dislike both.