One of the very best games ever made.
You are in for quite a ride.
One of the games that got the most out of me, literal masterpiece in every single way.

It was at the 19:32 mark in that flashback video when I dropped the game. (Yes, that is actly the exact moment.) So, I guess I went through a bit more of the Abby section than I had expected? In any case, that characterization of Ellie as being "lost" is a fair one. The story writing in the game isn't bad, I must say. It does a lot right...but also a lot wrong. And as far as moral ambiguity is concerned, ig it's a little boring to me b/c i'm always looking at things from a "morally ambiguous" lens...? idk i just got annoyed by its importance in the game lol.

What did I think of the ending to the first game? Well, first off, I thought it was the best possible way they could've wrapped up the story to Part I. Such a perfect conclusion! Secondly, looking beyond my opinion of how it was handled, I...understand Joel from where he's coming from. Dude lost his only daughter and his wife, and he's left in a dismal and hopeless state at the state of Part I. Upon having been gifted this girl Ellie, you can see him slowly regain a lot of his lost hope, and view the world from a far less dark perspective. She was his light in a very dark and lonely post-apocolyptic world. When met with this incredible decision of "It's either humanity or her", I cannot blame this man for choosing the girl. She was his life, and he had already gone through an earth-shattering loss with his daughter. Yeah, it was very selfish of Joel to damn the rest of the world to an uncurable plague, but I have to sympathize with him.

And Joel lying to Ellie about what had happened? It's hard to say whether this was the right call. The amount of guilt that would be on Ellie's shoulders, as well the intense strain which would be placed on their relationship, leads me to believe maybe he did what he needed to do. At the same time, however, Joel betrayed Ellie by ruining the entire escort mission & lying to her face on what exactly happened.

"Btw, you don't have to kill all those 'extras', you can sneak by and leave them be. I've been sneaking by many encounters on my second play-through. So it's up to the player to be a mass murderer ;) (But then I start shooting for fun when my inventory is full, it's still a game!)" I feel like I'm cheating when I do knock every last one out Lol. If I'm playing on Survivor Mode, then that means I'm gonna have to be ready for a challenge. Granted, TLoU:Pt2 was piss easy with its Survivor Mode, literally creating a checkpoint after every single kill lol.

For me, it just felt a little forced fixing the cam on Ellie's face during Nora's death and such. (It was almost as if the game was shouting at the player, "Hey! This is important! Look how Ellie is being impacted by revenge! Revenge is evil!!". Good storytelling doesn't need to tell the player when something is important.) Like I cannot fathom the difference between slitting hundreds of soldiers throats versus beating in Nora's skull. Ellie was acting in self defense when Nora started running, so it's not like the death was too much different from all the other deaths. Same goes for Ellie's encounter with Owen and Mel. Ellie even says "That was stupid" after having killed one of the ppl b/c she needed info, but ended up acting out of self defense before she was able to get anything. There rlly wasn't any torture involved in these deaths. It was all pretty instant, and in response to threats of harm from the ppl she was confronting.

Also, funny thing worth mentioning, but there was one enemy (I can't remember where? It was on the second floor of a house or smth...) who -- before I was able to give them a final blow -- started begging for mercy. And so, without any hesistation, I sparred them by walking away. Two second later, I have a bullet shot Ellie's way, to which I duck for cover and turn the camera to see what has happened, just to see that same person standing up, hiding behind a door with their gun drawn. I eventually have to take them out, but it was almost just like a slap-in-the-face to this "revenge is evil!!" narrative the writer(s) were trying to push. (You don't commit to the revenge plot? Okay, well you're gonna die b/c the person you sparred is just gonna kill you.)

And to add: I realize I'm kinda being "that guy" who's arguing why a game is bad Lol. Let me clarify by saying that I hope my comments don't damper your enjoyment of the title! I would've loved to enjoy the story as much as you do, though it just didn't strike me very well.

I’m hoping TLOU3 focuses on Abby and Lev only. Genuinely disliked Ellie by the time I finished the game, much preferred Abby. Abby had every right in the world to kill Joel, he had it coming and fully deserved it. What right did Ellie have after what Joel did in that hospital. It was a visceral and brutal game about the cycle of violence and the price of revenge, honestly loved it more after my first replay than I did on launch. 

I thought it was kinda brilliant keeping the camera on Ellie while letting your imagination fill in the gaps to what's happening. The unseen is always more powerful if the sound is there, at least to me.

I do have to disagree with the self-defense stuff. Nothing Ellie does it out of self-defense, she went on this revenge mission. She's hunting these people down. Nora running away doesn't make it self-defense to run after her. And slow torture is very different from slitting throats to 'save yourself'. They don't show it, but right after the screen goes to black, she 'suddenly' knows where Abby is (After Nora firmly stating she won't give up her friend and Ellie stating I can make it so much worse for you, Nora already being infected by spores) Ellie then states "I made her talk" and Dina sees what that took from her.

(You don't commit to the revenge plot? Okay, well you're gonna die b/c the person you sparred is just gonna kill you.)

That's the whole story! Ellie says it herself, "You should have killed me". But you can run away in a lot of cases.


But I get where you're coming from. Ludonarrative dissonance is just as strong here when killing everyone along the way as in RPGs where you spend more time running errands than solving the imminent disaster. Hence stories simply work better in movies and on TV. The TV show doesn't have Joel/Ellie kill hundreds of people along the way. And stretched out over 25 hours, the story beats will seem more disconnected and out of place.

I'm playing on easy in my second play through to experience the story more. Sneaking by most encounters, focusing on the narrative rather than the hunter looter game play cycle.

As always, the more open the game, or even the levels in this case, the harder it is to tell a story :/


You're not dampening my enjoyment at all. This discussion makes me look deeper into the story since I'm playing through it now. Owen and Mel are up next.


Btw I also always look at things from a "morally ambiguous" lens. For me that results in always having a disconnect with games that treat things as black and white. Hence I'm resonating with Tlou2 as its finally not an after thought or small part.

The Witcher 2 kinda does something similar in chapter 2, where you can choose which side to play through. I played through that concurrently from both sides to see the different perspectives. That chapter is still my favorite part of The Witcher series. However Geralt is still the shining hero on either path, you only get a look at the different perspective from the factions involved. Tlou2 does it so much better setting the 2 perspectives against each other.

You're expecting much ado about nothing. The game has over a 50% completion rate, one tof the highest in gaming and certainly for a game that long. There are clear issues with the story and especially the pacing of it, the mid game cut is indefensible, as well as paying no heed to side character or any attempt to flesh them out and make us care about them. But with all the nonsense whining about this game no one can deny it's a great game or it wouldn't have that much of a follow through to completion. I believe this game is where all this woke discourse started but I think the Catalyst was Joel's death, people were so angry about that they whined about many more thing I'm sure they could give fucks less about. A pity but the sales and completion rate speak louder than the loud minority complaining.

Joel was fighting to save someone's life, Abby was fighting to kill someone for revenge. I dont get this opinion at all. Abby was at the very least, just as evil as Joel. Imagine Abby asking why her dad had to die... "Oh, he was going to murder a little girl in order to try and save humanity. And they weren't going to tell her." Not quite as straight forward as "Bad man went on murder spree." 

Maybe its the dad in me speaking, but what was great about the ending of the first game was how much I struggled with what I would've done in the same circumstance. When someone tries to harm one of your kids (I know, technically not his kid, but she became one to him) you'll do pretty much anything to save them. And after he had already watched his actual daughter get shot in cold blood? This "evil Joel" narrative is weird to me. Obviously murdering a ton of people is wrong, but to him, he was just trying to save one. What was Abby's motivation again?

That's conveniently forgetting Joel was smuggling the girl to the Fireflies to 'honor' the dying wish of Marlene. He could have not brought her there after he grew attached to Ellie. He put her in that situation in the first place, without first finding out about the risks. Would you as a father leave your kid at the hospital without being informed thoroughly about all the risks? We're hesitant of any procedure that requires sedation as there's always a risk.

If he was trying to save Ellie, why bring her to the hospital at all. He continuously put her and himself in dangerous situation. What was his motivation to continue with the mission?

Abby's motive is just as strong. Seeing your father brutally murdered at age 16 / 17 leaves a mark. And you know how reactionary teenagers are.

"Evil Joe" chose to put Ellie in danger, then went on a murder spree trying to undo his 'mistake'.
"Evil Abby" was traumatized by the death of her father and vowed to bring the culprit to justice. Note she only killed Joel, no collateral damage at that point like Joel killing everyone along the way.

Abby's dad had his own moral dilemma, being pretty sure Ellie wouldn't survive the procedure. But what would you do if that's the last hope for humanity and everyone you care about. The Last of Us is a dying world, there's no coming back as long as the virus is around. Resources are dwindling, last stands continue to fall. Jackson city won't last. They already couldn't afford to send out a vigilante party, hence Tommy running off alone to avenge his brother, then reluctantly letting Ellie go to go save Tommy.

In the end the decision was up to Ellie. No one ever gave her the choice, which is the real crime and why she declared "we're done" to Joel after forcing him to confirm what he did at the hospital. But of course with conflicting emotions since she still wanted revenge for his death next to going after Tommy. But what did she have left to live for, watch everyone slowly die around her from the infection while being immune. That's some heavy survivor's guilt she's carrying.

He didn't view her as his daughter when he took the assignment, and didn't know the procedure was going to kill her till he found documents at the facility. You're really trying to say a father doesn't care for his kid if he risks putting them under anesthesia? That's the case you're going with? I also didn't think Abby saw her father die as you seem to be implying. Abby certainly tortured Joel to death, though.

Obviously we aren't going to agree here, so be it. 

I'm not saying that at all. I said he should have found out the risks beforehand, as any father would. Especially putting your child up for the equivalent of a drug trial. There was nothing wrong with Ellie.

And I said 'seeing her father murdered' as opposed to watching her father get murdered. Not implying she witnessed the crime, she found her father dead in the operating room.

Abby certainly didn't give Joel a quick death, there are no innocents here. Joel, Ellie, Abby and the rest of the cast.

Imo Joel was fighting to save his own life. He couldn't stand the thought of losing his new surrogate daughter.

The more I think about it, the more it seems like Naughty Dog were in a no-win situation with any sort of TLOU follow-up.

If they'd done the same basic storyline and game design as the first, just with Joel and Ellie a little older and showing their relationship developing further, people would have been complaining it was a rehash.

If they'd changed up the gameplay to shift away from the survival horror aspects and focused more on Joel (or Ellie) massacring infected by the bucketload, it probably would have ended up being Resident Evil 6 all over again.

If they'd kept the same setting but moved to a completely new lead character - or promoted one of the side characters from the first game to the main character - then people would have complained that they wanted another sequel with Joel and Ellie.

Not saying that there aren't flaws with what they ended up going with, but I don't think there was any way a sequel was going to get the same level of kudos as the first game.