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firebush03 on 18 December 2024
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SvennoJ said:

Well part of it is a flashback of the hospital encounter in Tlou1, the missing part.

It also gives more fuel to Joel's point of view, confirming they knew Ellie would not survive the surgery. Yet Ellie said she was prepared for that, willing to make that sacrifice. Hence she feels 'lost' in part 2. She lost her purpose and the one person she learned to trust lied to her and betrayed her.

For video games, moral ambiguity is not a beaten-to-death theme at all. It's a brave move by ND to dive into the world of greys instead of keeping it black and white. No hero vs villains like any other video game. Sure some games have a sequence with some moral ambiguity, but I can't think of any other game where it's the central theme, while showing the story from 2 different perspectives.

I'm curious what did you initially think of the ending of TloU part 1? I lost respect for Joel at the end, although he was kinda not given the choice. But then lying about it to Ellie, what an ass. The rift between Ellie and Joel in part 2 felt fully justified.

Btw, you don't have to kill all those 'extras', you can sneak by and leave them be. I've been sneaking by many encounters on my second play-through. So it's up to the player to be a mass murderer ;) (But then I start shooting for fun when my inventory is full, it's still a game!)

It was at the 19:32 mark in that flashback video when I dropped the game. (Yes, that is actly the exact moment.) So, I guess I went through a bit more of the Abby section than I had expected? In any case, that characterization of Ellie as being "lost" is a fair one. The story writing in the game isn't bad, I must say. It does a lot right...but also a lot wrong. And as far as moral ambiguity is concerned, ig it's a little boring to me b/c i'm always looking at things from a "morally ambiguous" lens...? idk i just got annoyed by its importance in the game lol.

What did I think of the ending to the first game? Well, first off, I thought it was the best possible way they could've wrapped up the story to Part I. Such a perfect conclusion! Secondly, looking beyond my opinion of how it was handled, I...understand Joel from where he's coming from. Dude lost his only daughter and his wife, and he's left in a dismal and hopeless state at the state of Part I. Upon having been gifted this girl Ellie, you can see him slowly regain a lot of his lost hope, and view the world from a far less dark perspective. She was his light in a very dark and lonely post-apocolyptic world. When met with this incredible decision of "It's either humanity or her", I cannot blame this man for choosing the girl. She was his life, and he had already gone through an earth-shattering loss with his daughter. Yeah, it was very selfish of Joel to damn the rest of the world to an uncurable plague, but I have to sympathize with him.

And Joel lying to Ellie about what had happened? It's hard to say whether this was the right call. The amount of guilt that would be on Ellie's shoulders, as well the intense strain which would be placed on their relationship, leads me to believe maybe he did what he needed to do. At the same time, however, Joel betrayed Ellie by ruining the entire escort mission & lying to her face on what exactly happened.

"Btw, you don't have to kill all those 'extras', you can sneak by and leave them be. I've been sneaking by many encounters on my second play-through. So it's up to the player to be a mass murderer ;) (But then I start shooting for fun when my inventory is full, it's still a game!)" I feel like I'm cheating when I do knock every last one out Lol. If I'm playing on Survivor Mode, then that means I'm gonna have to be ready for a challenge. Granted, TLoU:Pt2 was piss easy with its Survivor Mode, literally creating a checkpoint after every single kill lol.

SvennoJ said:

@firebush03 

"Ellie having a bleeding heart upon murdering the team of ppl who killed Joel (yet she has no remourse for the scores of soldiers she killed along the way"

I just got to the part where Ellie confronts Nora. The 'sudden' bleeding heart she displays there is an important turn of events. From basically killing in self defense she has been doing all the time (enemies are all non hesitant to kill her) she kidnaps, pursues and then tortures Nora for information.

The emotional toll and moral price she pays for that is written all over her face, very powerful sequence. The game forces you to press square to advance the torture, all while focusing on Ellie's facial expression.

It makes a lot of sense. She goes deeper and deeper in the cycle of revenge killing rather than kill to survive.

And this time it made more impact on me as I was sneaking by the Scars and the soldiers while getting into the hospital. There is one mandatory confrontation, dude with a huge hammer coming after Ellie. Then she's already upset for killing Nora's friend in the basement, reflex after she resists.

But true, if you methodically kill everyone along the way, then it can feel a bit arbitrary. But still the move from "self defense" to torture is a big turning point in the game.

I'll be on the way to the Aquarium tonight, where things further escalate.

For me, it just felt a little forced fixing the cam on Ellie's face during Nora's death and such. (It was almost as if the game was shouting at the player, "Hey! This is important! Look how Ellie is being impacted by revenge! Revenge is evil!!". Good storytelling doesn't need to tell the player when something is important.) Like I cannot fathom the difference between slitting hundreds of soldiers throats versus beating in Nora's skull. Ellie was acting in self defense when Nora started running, so it's not like the death was too much different from all the other deaths. Same goes for Ellie's encounter with Owen and Mel. Ellie even says "That was stupid" after having killed one of the ppl b/c she needed info, but ended up acting out of self defense before she was able to get anything. There rlly wasn't any torture involved in these deaths. It was all pretty instant, and in response to threats of harm from the ppl she was confronting.

Also, funny thing worth mentioning, but there was one enemy (I can't remember where? It was on the second floor of a house or smth...) who -- before I was able to give them a final blow -- started begging for mercy. And so, without any hesistation, I sparred them by walking away. Two second later, I have a bullet shot Ellie's way, to which I duck for cover and turn the camera to see what has happened, just to see that same person standing up, hiding behind a door with their gun drawn. I eventually have to take them out, but it was almost just like a slap-in-the-face to this "revenge is evil!!" narrative the writer(s) were trying to push. (You don't commit to the revenge plot? Okay, well you're gonna die b/c the person you sparred is just gonna kill you.)

And to add: I realize I'm kinda being "that guy" who's arguing why a game is bad Lol. Let me clarify by saying that I hope my comments don't damper your enjoyment of the title! I would've loved to enjoy the story as much as you do, though it just didn't strike me very well.