Oh I think society can be better when geared towards the masses, but pendulums can swing.  A government that takes cares of its people too much creates laziness and kills innovation.  I've lived in other countries.  The one thing that has turned me more conservative is living in socialism....  it isn't what American's think it is.  

At the end of the day I think it is balance.  Politics annoy me with the "us versus them" because a hybrid system is best.

American's have zero idea how damn good we have it.  

For me it a slippery slope.  Sure charge me 5% more I can afford it....  then another 5% 10 years later, heck add another 5% and another 5% years later.....  it is always easier to spend someone else's money.  

And don't take take this the wrong way, but your post is exactly why liberalism worries me.  It is my money and my concern.  It isn't our money and our concern.  Liberals have an odd view on ownership.  

Gun laws = state decision.  I don't believe in federal gun laws.  Someone living off the land in TN need different gun laws than someone in NY city.  

Rights = everyone should be treated with respect and be protected under the law.

Immigration  = close the border, reduce it.  

Climate change = world problem that the world will never address.  I'm not worried about climate change.  I'm 100% humans destroy the planet, just a matter of when.

The thing is I 100% believe Republicans in control is a terrible idea.  I also believe democrats in control is a terrible idea....  balance and compromise should be the target.

My ideal:

State = Republicans 

House = democrats 

Senate = republican 

White house = democrats 

Supreme = republican 

Force our elected officials to work with each other, keep the balance...  neither party is bad or good.  Too much power for any party is bad.  

Because Ryuu knows his stuff. He reads about Ukraine and Russia pretty much every day, and he posts about it a lot. I would not be surprised in the least if he's had a full 1,000 posts in the Russia Ukraine thread here. 

I would hope from how you talk about your math program, that you are pretty competent at whatever part of math you are studying. You might feel more than a little bothered if someone insisted they knew your math better than you did. All while complaining that they'll have to look up every result that you've claimed to make.

Saying "I have a proof for this, but there's not enough space in this margin to write it" means nothing. 

I find it very troubling that this still seems like a game to you. That you seem to think we're just waiting for you to win or something. 

What would convince you that you were wrong, and that America isn't half as interested in the war as Russia is?

If the answer is nothing, that's the problem. There's no point in having this discussion if no amount of evidence would change your mind.

If the answer isn't nothing, then maybe Ryuu has those answers; maybe I would have those answers. But you probably have to put in some genuine effort to get those answers.

I would be willing to change my position with substantial evidence, but nothing you've shown has outweighed Putin's own words, the actions of the Republican party or the actions of Zelenskyy. Far too much of your commentary is extremely speculative and conspiratorial at times. (Doesn't necessarily mean that it's wrong, but it's concerning when there's constant promises of evidence and very little actual evidence. Even more so when someone else seems to be effortlessly debunking quite a bit of your assertions.)

(i’m responding to this guy.) “Because Ryuu knows his stuff.” He absolutely does not know his stuff. If he did, he wouldn’t have to drop the wall of China in all his responses. If he did, he wouldn’t constantly resort to insults in almost every single one of his sentences. (I’m aggressive, but not nearly that aggressive.) Almost every remark he makes dodges every point I make. He needs to learn to address points in a concise fashion, without instigating the other individual he is speaking with.

Also, yes, most of my commentary does read in a highly speculative manner (as does Ryuu’s, though he has the luxury to call back upon his sources), but it’s because I’ve already done the research and I’m not in the mood to dig it all back up just for some guy who is clearly deadset on not changing his outlook to dismiss everything and return to regurgitating his same lines. When asked whether there was further nuance to Putin than “He’s the bad guy!”, he simply told me that it actually is that simple: This is entirely irrational. And this is the guy who knows his stuff? Come on. That reads to me as Ryuu has fallen victim to an echo chamber, and has no interest in backing out now.

And listen to me when I say that I’m not one to completely dismiss the prospect that Putin may have some imperial desires. But based on what I have observed, it wouldn’t make sense for this to be the entire reasoning for it doesn’t help Russia’s bottom line, besides make Putin a little more popular. Sure, their economy has stood shockingly well in face of mass U.S. sanctioning, and their military remains powerful (indeed, this is an embarrassing display by the US how they miscalculated so terribly). However, the U.S. has truly gotten their wish of mass NATO support across the countries along the Russian border. The U.S. has firmly severed ties between Russia and the rest of Europe with this invasion, so now the U.S. has a stranglehold over the European economy, with China and Russia further isolated. And I can go on and on about this stuff, I can certainly provide resources, but it takes so long. How do you think I’m reaching these conclusions? I’m just sitting down, coming up with random thoughts that make sense, and sending them over? Absolutely not. I have a catalogue of info that goes beyond simply taking one guys word in a single tweet, or which goes beyond reading a single article from some Western/Russian outlet. I spend a sufficient amount of time looking into this information to be discussing the matter with Ryuu, and to say other is a complete cop-out intended solely to delegitimize any and all points I could make.

This is the exact reason why I don’t have interest in getting into all of this, because it’s so nuanced, and there are so many perfectly valid perspectives to have. Nobody has the answer, and to die on the hill of “I have it figured it” is a waste of my time to even deal with that. I feel awful being so harsh with this comment, and it’s for these reason why I’ll need to avoid this chat. 

Edit: I have received a solution to all of this! I don’t like typing up all my responses to Ryuu…so what I will do going forward is video response. :) That’s easy. So I guess y’all better be ready for that.

Because as Ryuu mentioned several pages ago, Russia expected an easy victory. They expected to win in weeks. 

Somehow I doubt that you would argue that the US Revolutionary War was proof that Britain wasn't actually imperialistic. Why would they go to war that doesn't help their bottom line? 

And again, the thing that troubles me about your position the most is that Putin himself is extremely proud of the fact that he feels Ukraine belongs to Russia; going back 1300 years. 

Writing nuance requires tends to require writing a lot.

I'm not sure how you can do a math PhD if you think Ryuu is writing a lot.

And frankly sometimes it helps to say the same thing multiple times in different ways, because otherwise not everyone will get it.

It's no better than bragging about how wonderful your essay is, and how well researched you are. 

How would you know he's dodging your points, you keep complaining about how much he's writing. 

(oh give me a break. Just because I’m being playful in my remarks? What are you even talking about? What does it even mean I’m treating it like a game? I find debate to be fun, if that’s what you’re getting at. But I don’t see what’s wrong with that?)

When the situation is as serious as Ukraine, when you witness atrocities in Ukraine almost every week, and I see people rushing in with Russian propaganda to put the blame away from Russia and onto someone else, then they make light of the situation then yes, I find that annoying and quite frankly disgusting.

You find debating fun but you've barely debated with anyone in this thread.

(So yall will provide your rebuttals and I kinda just have to take the “L” because I don’t have time to get into it. That’s the problem rn. It’s not like I’m unable to provide a sufficient response, I just don’t have the motivation to do such when I have other more important things to be focused on.)

Then you shouldn't have posted in here in the first place, it's not our fault that you're shit at planning, preparing, it's not our fault that you decided to come in with some generalised bait of the situation and then refused to elaborate, it's not our fault that you're refusing to read rebuttals, it's not our fault that it takes you weeks to make a response to the most basic of questions.

He absolutely does not know his stuff. If he did, he wouldn’t have to drop the wall of China in all his responses.

Not going to say I know everything but writing long pieces of text have nothing to do with that and a University PHD of all people should know that.

When your teacher asked you to make an essay of (x-amount of words) was your response; "Well, I would but that would just prove that I don't know my stuff so I'm just going to give you 100 words instead" and how can you claim that I do not know my stuff when you have admitted to not even reading my stuff.

If he did, he wouldn’t constantly resort to insults in almost every single one of his sentences.

Don't be a hypocrite, you started your posting in here by accusing everyone in the thread of not debating in good faith, then upon being challenged you immediately insulted Zorg, did you even apologise for that? So if you aren't going to show others respect then don't expect respect in return, especially when you straight up ignore people putting actual effort into replying to your posts.

Also, yes, most of my commentary does read in a highly speculative manner (as does Ryuu’s, though he has the luxury to call back upon his sources)

Ryuu has sources, I don't, that's why Ryuu is bad!

It’s because I’ve already done the research and I’m not in the mood to dig it all back up

Except yesterday you was whining that you would have to research things to respond?

When asked whether there was further nuance to Putin than “He’s the bad guy!”, he simply told me that it actually is that simple: This is entirely irrational.

Uh, yes, because throughout history it has in fact been that simple when it comes to violent dictators.

Would you be sitting on the side-lines and arguing that actually, it was Poland's fault that Hitler invaded them? We must look into the nuance as to why Hitler wanted to control half the world and it wasn't as simple as "he's just a sick fuck" because apparently, humans can't simply just be sick fucks sometimes, despite us being an incredibly violent species throughout history.

Did you ignore the Russian State Media advocating to wipe out Ukrainians? Did you miss Putin pulling out the map which "shows" that Ukraine as a country doesn't exist to justify his invasion? Did you miss Russian atrocities in Syria committed by Putin, atrocities in Chechnya committed by Putin, the Georgia invasion, the Crimea invasion.

And listen to me when I say that I’m not one to completely dismiss the prospect that Putin may have some imperial desires.

You won't dismiss it but it's irrational for someone else to take the stance.

Sure, their economy has stood shockingly well in face of mass U.S. sanctioning

Their economy is standing up because it's in war mode.

Their military remains powerful (indeed, this is an embarrassing display by the US how they miscalculated so terribly).

Debateable, an embarrassing display by the US? The US who hasn't sent a single American soldier into Ukraine? The US who is ranked #16th for support to Ukraine by GDP? The US spending a fraction of their money and military power? While Russia has lost hundreds of thousands of troops, tens of thousands of equipment, all for 16% of Ukraine (and some of that 16% is Crimea/Donbas which they stole in 2014).

Holy shit dude this is why I have trouble talking to you, it's just choke full of pro-Russian nonsense.

Russia is a global superpower throwing almost everything it has against a country which doesn't even have a navy and barely an air-force, a numerical disadvantage in troops and severe lack of equipment at the start of the war and they've still lost thousands of equipment and hundreds of thousands of troops, they even lost a fucking submarine to a country with no navy, they had to pull back their Black Sea Fleet due to Ukraine, a country with no navy, threatening their fleet, so much so that Ukraine is now able to freely resume grain exports through the Black Sea.

Embarrassing display by the US? The US is putting a fraction of their total power into this war and some in western Europe (France, Italy, Spain) are barely pulling their weight at all. The USA puts fucking restrictions on Ukraine that they can't fire US weapons onto Russian territory and you think America wants Russia destroyed?

Explain to me genius why America puts so many restrictions on Ukraine? Explain to me why America took months to decide to send MBTS, Long-Range Missiles? Explain to me why America is rank #16 for GDP % support? Explain to me why America currently hasn't pledged a single F-16 to Ukraine despite having hundreds? Explain to me why America doesn't want Ukraine striking Russian territory?

However, the U.S. has truly gotten their wish of mass NATO support across the countries along the Russian border.

Russia* Achieved that by threatening their neighbours. The Baltics, Poland, Czech Republic, etc. Have always hated and disliked Russia.

This is the exact reason why I don’t have interest in getting into all of this, because it’s so nuanced, and there are so many perfectly valid perspectives to have. 

I swear to God...You are the biggest hypocrite on this forum, Lol.

"There's so many perfectly valid perspectives to have!"

• Also Firebush: You're irrational for thinking this.

“I have it figured it” is a waste of my time to even deal with that.

Then go away because all you look like is a troll.

(I’m sure they did. But again, that doesn’t explain why Putin launched the invasion in the first place. There is further nuance. Putin’s plans may have been to neutralize the threat in a swift manner, but things didn’t go accordingly.)

You literally just explained why Putin launched the invasion in the first place in the same comment, Lmao.

"Putin's plans may have been to neutralize the threat in a swift manner, but things didn't go accordingly"

You're so close to getting it!

He expected a swift victory and a weak western response because the West didn't respond when he stole Crimea, Donbas, Chechnya, Areas of Georgia, etc. Who can be surprised at that? If a bully keeps punching someone and nobody stops him, guess what, he's going to keep punching.

The West themselves expected Ukraine to fall in a week!

From 2022: Exclusive: U.S. Expects Kyiv to Fall in Days as Ukraine Source Warns of Encirclement

It is easy to see how a PhD would view Ryuu as going a little bit overboard.

Pretty sure a PHD wouldn't say "I ain't reading this, too long bro" either.

I'm still waiting for you to admit that you were wrong that NATO "promised" to not expand, that you were wrong about America forcing Zelenskyy to drop his peace deal, I'm still waiting for you to acknowledge your nuke argument makes zero sense when looking at the actual facts (nukes have a range of 5000km+ and Russia has more nukes bordering NATO countries than NATO countries have bordering Russia). I'm waiting for you to acknowledge that both sides AREN'T the same. I'm waiting for you to acknowledge that Russia gave Ukraine security guarantees in exchange for surrendering their nukes and Russia broke that agreement. I'm waiting for you to acknowledge that Germany already rejected NATO membership. I'm waiting for you to acknowledge that Ukraine, Latvia, Finland, Estonia, Lithuania, Poland, Czech Republic, etc. Are all independent countries and hate Russia for reasonable reasons outside of "America told us to" I'm waiting for you to acknowledge that NATO membership requires a YES vote by every member. I'm waiting for you to acknowledge that NATO would have never accepted Ukraine in as long as they were in active conflict with Russia which they were since 2014 via Crimea and Donbas. I'm waiting for you to acknowledge that America has straight up said Ukraine can't join NATO as long as they are in war. I'm waiting for you to acknowledge that NATO is a defensive organisation and Article 5 has only ever been invoked by America in response to 9/11. That Russia has said that Ukraine doesn't exist as a country and is a part of Russia. That Putin used a map to show that Ukraine doesn't exist as a country. That Russian State Media regularly says Ukrainians need to be exterminated. That NATO has never attacked Russia. That Russia pulled troops away from the Finnish border after Finland joined NATO. That Russia has nuclear capable missiles inside of Kaliningrad, a country which borders Poland. That no country in the Nordics, Baltics, Eastern Europe have nukes or share American nukes. That America places restrictions on what Ukraine can do against Russia to avoid upsetting Russia too much.

You'll just give me some bullshit "societal" speech and continue vaguely teasing a response.

• First - You came in to generalise the entire thread as "nobody’s debating in good faith"
• Then when being called out on it, your response is to accuse a user of only acting like he cares about stuff.
• When said user calls you out further, you insult him.
• You acknowledge you was a dick but offer no apology or display any caring.
• When someone (me) puts the effort in to respond to you, all I receive is dismissive bullshit.
• Then you say that you're leaving because and I quote "I don't see my mind changing" and "nor did I expect to...that's why I avoid this forum"
• Then you respond to Pi-Guy, not to actually respond to his points, but to throw a dig at another user.
• Then instead of responding to multiple rebuttals, you whip out the finals excuse.
• You finally return! The legendary post is coming today! Posted 2 days ago.
• Still no response.
• I tell you to respond to Zorg who you still haven't after having weeks to do so.
• Still too busy to respond to him.
• We finally start having a debate only for you to immediately shut it down and run away because you didn't like my responses, at the same time you straight up admit that "I haven’t ignored it. I specifically told you in the past that I’m not going to waste my time reading your giant articles of information. So I don’t even know your stances."
• Repeat debunked nonsense, probably because Mr PHD doesn't read responses.
• I tell you to respond to Zorg's comment, you provide more excuses, after having weeks.
• You complain about having to research in a debate...Implying you didn't even bother doing research beforehand.

I gave you a deadline, Mr Maths PHD in a University should be used to deadlines but after weeks you still are unable to do the most basic of requests in a debate forum after being the one to cause all this drama to begin with, I told you to respond to Zorg. You didn't. You're wasting everyone's time. This thread is drowned out by a single issue thanks to you.

I know I'm to blame too but I do hope this thread can now move away from foreign policy a little, it's an important thing but there's about a hundred different issues as well and I know foreign policy tends to rank on the lower side of concerns to the voting public so I imagine some Americans are sitting in the thread wishing the dang conversation would end.