the-pi-guy said:
firebush03 said:
My main point is that Americans should look at the conflict not as an entirely unprovoked attack by a country looking to reestablish the Soviet Union, but rather that maybe there’s more to the story. |
Then why is Russia basically trying to argue that it is? A large chunk of that Putin Tucker interview was Putin arguing that Ukraine was really part of Russia, how it goes back hundreds of years. firebush03 said:
In this particular instance, I perceive Russia took the bait that America was handing them. That is, America sent Ukraine invitations into NATO with the sole intent of provoking Russia to intervene via invasion. America wants this because now Russia has a war they have to deal with on their border, weakening their power and thereby strengthening the US. |
The supposition here is that America is apparently playing 4-D chess. Russia is responding to NATO "threats" that are basically 16 years old, while arguing that it's really for imperialism, but Russia is lying and making themselves look bad for reasons. Russia is apparently getting involved in a war that apparently obviously will weaken them. America really wants the war, yet there is a circus in Congress every time Ukraine asks America for help and support. Ryuu debunked the core NATO bits on the last page: Ryuu96 said:
You do realise how NATO works, right? You do know that every single country gets a vote? And that if one country votes against another joining that the country can't join at all? You do know that Ukraine already tried to join NATO once before back in 2008 and that France and Germany voted against it? Then after that America gave up on. You do know that Ukraine today wants to join NATO and there is huge support for it amongst the public? You are aware of the Ukraine riots in 2014, the Euromaiden, in response to President Yanukovych's decision not to sign a political association and free trade agreement with the European Union which resulted in a President heavily seen by Ukrainians as being a Russian puppet being kicked out of office by the people? Ukraine was nowhere near to joining NATO...Why? Because NATO would have never allowed a country into it which is in active conflict with another and Ukraine was in active conflict, with Russia, the only way Ukraine could have joined NATO is if they officially gave up claim over Crimea and Donbas...Russia knows full well that Ukraine wasn't anywhere close to joining NATO, they are the ones who designed it so that would be the case, by starting a small conflict they prevent Ukraine from joining NATO at all because NATO does not want a war with Russia. |
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Neat! An actual relatively good faith response from here. I’ll get back to you later (today or sometime this week) after looking at everything, seeing what holes I could potentially poke, etc. I’ll push back, but I’m curious to see what you can give…
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