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Forums - Politics Discussion - Saudi Arabia in talks with SE for 8 months to get LGBT content censored

JackHandy said:
mhsillen said:

A child who is 5 needs gender affirming care?  A lot of people have gone through the surgery and have ended up worse off.  Its for everyone to see on one of those cable shows that has followed a boy who had is man parts chopped off and she is a mess. the mom will not listen to her and her suffering.  And their are alot of people who are the same way after getting this surgery.   They are ignored by all the media as it goes against the narrative.  Thats not gender affirming care.

The term affirming is a misnomer, anyway. Gender Dysphoria (DSM-5-TR) is a serious mental condition, so these sorts of procedures, if they affirm anything, would only affirm that the child or person suffers from it. They don't actually do anything, only damage their body. And studies have shown that it also doesn't improve their mental states. They still suffer from the same distress, same rates of depression and suicide... it really is tragic.

In my opinion, we should have been developing ways for these poor people to live with their conditions, rather than playing into it out of misguided compassion. But politics got involved, and now... sigh. It's all very sad. 

Gender dysphoria is a mental health condition, transitioning has shown beneficial in alleviating the dysphoria, so you're wrong to say that these procedures don't do anything. Variations in the rate of success doesn't mean that these treatments are baseless. You should follow more trans people and hear their stories. 

I don't disagree that work should continue to find ways alleviate gender dysphoria (and different types of dysmorphia) in other ways that don't involve bodily modifications, all means of support and options should be provided, you will find that people in the trans community will not disagree with this. In the meantime, no such treatments exist, and such is the case for many mental health conditions, so in a way, it's good that we have treatments and procedures that are proven to help alleviate the dysphoria that the trans community can choose to undertake. 

I don't believe for a second that people like Ben Shapiro or Matt Walsh (and the rest of the American extreme right wing gang) care about any of this though, they don't want to help, they will not fund research or treatments for gender dysphoria, they are hateful people who will not stop even if they succeed at preventing people with gender dysphoria to seek treatments, they're out there bashing the LGB part of the community as well, the "concern" they put on display for the LGBT community is fake, laughable, and only the gullible or the hateful bunch fall for their narrative. 

Again, I applaud the American right for their effective ways of diffusing the LGBT cause, FF16 will not have children with gender dysphoria, so why are we talking about this? would the Saudis or the American right be supportive of the game if it only has gay characters? Adult trans characters who chose to transition as adults? 

This is the trend now, the only narrow angle LGBT people can be viewed from by the American right is "what about the children who transition?", as if this is the only point of contention they have, and as if in its absence, they would happily be supportive of everything else about the movement. They don't and they won't. 



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Good on Saudi - Western superiority complex knows now bounds, as if they're the gatekeepers of objective morality. In the process of respecting a small group of people, you want to disrespect the position/values of entire nations lol. Such blatant hypocrisy that your media brainwashing won't let you see past.



Pemalite said:

On one hand you are saying we should remove harsh-penalties, which is a changing of tradition.

But then you are decrying the changing of tradition.

Either you support tradition or you don't, that includes torture, mutilation, slavery and abuse of people, you don't get to pick and choose.

Actually, while I agree with you on most points, I disagree here. We certainly should pick and choose which traditions to keep and which to abandon. We should abandon traditions that are harmful and hateful, like christian bullshit about homosexuality. But our life consists of lots of traditions, most of them far less visible, because we don't recognize them as long as we don't conflict. Speaking the same language as the people around us is a tradition (as we only do it, because our parents and ancestors did it). Wearing clothes in public is a tradition. Using money is a tradition. Making and eating certain foods is a tradition (easily recognizable, as in other regions other foods are preferred). So yeah, we can still love coffee (as this now is a traditional drink in many western societies) and reject hate on gay people. I decide to pick and choose that way. We could instead choose to establish a tradition of valuing diversity and inclusion, a tradition a lot of people and institutions actually working on (and depending on the context you already may consider it an established tradition).

And yes, traditions may change. The context may change so that once useful tradition become pointless or even harmful. New traditions are established, old abandoned or kept. But the thing is, you always will honor some traditions - even if you don't recognize them as such. And everyone including you picks and chooses which traditions to honor, which to ignore and which to abandon or to oppose.



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nil8r153 said:

Good on Saudi - Western superiority complex knows now bounds, as if they're the gatekeepers of objective morality. In the process of respecting a small group of people, you want to disrespect the position/values of entire nations lol. Such blatant hypocrisy that your media brainwashing won't let you see past.

Yup, I want to disrespect values of entire religions and nations, including mine, it's healthy to be critical and observant and care about the quality of life of small groups of people even if it meant me taking active changes to how I live my life and my attitude, it's the opposite of being brainwashed, your religion won't let you see past this though



mhsillen said:

A child who is 5 needs gender affirming care?  A lot of people have gone through the surgery and have ended up worse off.  Its for everyone to see on one of those cable shows that has followed a boy who had is man parts chopped off and she is a mess. the mom will not listen to her and her suffering.  And their are alot of people who are the same way after getting this surgery.   They are ignored by all the media as it goes against the narrative.  Thats not gender affirming care.

Sorry, but these things are way blown out proportion. In many cases gender affirming care simply means accepting crossdressing or other pronouns. Not surgery. Are there bad examples of things going wrong or too far? Sure, we live in a world with 8 billion people, you'll find examples for everything. But are they common? I doubt that.

The reality is, that gender dysphoria leads to distress, that causes depression, and depression is a big cause for death, because of suicide. If some simple measures helps reduce the distress and therefore reduce deaths, then why should we not do it? And if medical intervention, be it hormone therapy or surgery is decided by medical professionals on a case by case base as more beneficial than harmful, then yes we should allow it and even pay for it with health insurance (as this is exactly the thing these insurances exist for, to reduce avoidable harm).

Thing is, I want this to be decided by medical professionals and the involved person, not politician, talk show hosts and twitter. And I also point out that each case may have individual differences, nuances that are usually brushed over in public discussion, which paints it as a black and white issue. So you citing some anecdotal examples may have some base in reality (I am not aware of the cases), but the real question: do we more harm by allowing or generally forbidding gender affirming care? I think simply rejecting all gender affirming care is harming more people, because it still leaves the reasons for personal distress through gender dysphoria. I think medical professionals should create a framework on how to use the methods - as they do in other cases as well.



3DS-FC: 4511-1768-7903 (Mii-Name: Mnementh), Nintendo-Network-ID: Mnementh, Switch: SW-7706-3819-9381 (Mnementh)

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nil8r153 said:

Good on Saudi - Western superiority complex knows now bounds, as if they're the gatekeepers of objective morality. In the process of respecting a small group of people, you want to disrespect the position/values of entire nations lol. Such blatant hypocrisy that your media brainwashing won't let you see past.

Uh no. Saudi Arabia is the one gatekeeping a game away because they don't like it. Square Enix is just a Japanese company that made a game. SA is the one gatekeeping people's freedoms to play said game.  

Uh there's no hypocrisy. Respecting people's rights is not at odds with disrespecting authoritarian governments from pushing their views. 



mhsillen said:

The only problem is certain states don't like the idea of mutilating young kids. Another thing why is it so important that young children need to know how some peope enjoy sex? Its like their training children

 

You know Saudi are muslim, right? The religion most infamous for infant genital mutilation.

Seems like a hypocritical hill to die on...



mhsillen said:

There is a show about this very thing. A young boy had is penis removed now has a messy put together hole for a vagina. This girl now will never have an orgasm. This is mutalation. And this has happened to more than just her. Thats what i'm talking about. Not gay people. 

That is not the fault of the LGBT community. - Nor should they even get the blame.
That isn't what the LGBT community promotes.

At the end of the day, if PEOPLE make life-altering choices, PEOPLE better fucking own-up to their life-altering consequences.

The real solution is better education, better checks and balances at the medical level and better access to therapy, not criminalizing LGBT people because other people are ignorant and don't fully understand their childs current emotional/social needs.

Mnementh said:

Pemalite said:

On one hand you are saying we should remove harsh-penalties, which is a changing of tradition.

But then you are decrying the changing of tradition.

Either you support tradition or you don't, that includes torture, mutilation, slavery and abuse of people, you don't get to pick and choose.

Actually, while I agree with you on most points, I disagree here. We certainly should pick and choose which traditions to keep and which to abandon. We should abandon traditions that are harmful and hateful, like christian bullshit about homosexuality. But our life consists of lots of traditions, most of them far less visible, because we don't recognize them as long as we don't conflict. Speaking the same language as the people around us is a tradition (as we only do it, because our parents and ancestors did it). Wearing clothes in public is a tradition. Using money is a tradition. Making and eating certain foods is a tradition (easily recognizable, as in other regions other foods are preferred). So yeah, we can still love coffee (as this now is a traditional drink in many western societies) and reject hate on gay people. I decide to pick and choose that way. We could instead choose to establish a tradition of valuing diversity and inclusion, a tradition a lot of people and institutions actually working on (and depending on the context you already may consider it an established tradition).

And yes, traditions may change. The context may change so that once useful tradition become pointless or even harmful. New traditions are established, old abandoned or kept. But the thing is, you always will honor some traditions - even if you don't recognize them as such. And everyone including you picks and chooses which traditions to honor, which to ignore and which to abandon or to oppose.

But he doesn't want to abandon the harmful or hateful traditions, because they justify his bigotry against the LGBT community.

He only wants to remove harmful or hateful traditions that ONLY impact himself.

Ka-pi96 said:
mhsillen said:

The only problem is certain states don't like the idea of mutilating young kids. Another thing why is it so important that young children need to know how some peope enjoy sex? Its like their training children

 

You know Saudi are muslim, right? The religion most infamous for infant genital mutilation.

Seems like a hypocritical hill to die on...

I always that was a more Jewish thing... I know it's common in Christian households as well.

Maybe the common denominator is actually all middle-eastern, abrahamic religions like Islam, Christianity and Judaism? All essentially the same religion in the end with a few different twists.



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nil8r153 said:

Good on Saudi - Western superiority complex knows now bounds, as if they're the gatekeepers of objective morality. In the process of respecting a small group of people, you want to disrespect the position/values of entire nations lol. Such blatant hypocrisy that your media brainwashing won't let you see past.

It's not about morality but reality.

LGBT people exist.
We're still waiting for evidence that religion isn't fiction.

And then it's a matter of whether a developer wants to compromise their vision for that reason.



Ka-pi96 said:
mhsillen said:

The only problem is certain states don't like the idea of mutilating young kids. Another thing why is it so important that young children need to know how some peope enjoy sex? Its like their training children

 

You know Saudi are muslim, right? The religion most infamous for infant genital mutilation.

Seems like a hypocritical hill to die on...

This is quite common in Judaism, Christianity and Islam. 80% of americans are circumcized.