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Forums - Politics Discussion - It's ok to be angry about Capitalism

Chrkeller said:

A lot of hardworking people who don't build wealth picked poorly with career choice.

We shouldn't have to min-max our lives. As I've gotten older I find that to be an increasingly shit way to play games and I similarly find it to be a similarly shit way to live. 

So much of the "capitalism works for me" takes are based in how much money that person has and not how much fulfillment they get from their life. Pretty depressing imo...



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Chrkeller said:
mZuzek said:

Would be nicer if it was seven billion times over, but capitalism had other ideas.

Laziness should never be rewarded.  

Yikes.

Chrkeller said:

My larger point, which you intentionally missed, was a lot of people are poor because they don't work hard and can't budget.  Not all poor people are victims.

Yikes.

Chrkeller said:

A lot of hardworking people who don't build wealth picked poorly with career choice.

Yikes.



Chrkeller said:
the-pi-guy said:

So I guess you're opposed to capitalism, then.

The whole definition of communism is pretty much based on everyone working and everyone getting what they need.

The whole definition of socialism is pretty much based on workers controlling the means of production. 

The whole point of capitalism is that you have people at the top, that are incentivized to make as much as they can, which they usually make far more than they can possibly work for. You have private business owners that own companies. 

They pass on their businesses and their wealth to their kids, who have yet to work for it.  

Capitalism isn't a meritocracy. 

Much like other topics, a balance is best.  There is no perfect system.  Personally capitalism has worked for me.  I've worked hard and have accumulated wealth.  My larger point, which you intentionally missed, was a lot of people are poor because they don't work hard and can't budget.  Not all poor people are victims.

And regardless if people want to admit it, competition drives innovation.  There is a reason most innovations come from the same few countries over and over.

>There is a reason most innovations come from the same few countries over and over.

Despite the fact that every country has capitalism?

And it's just a coincidence that those countries you're thinking of, are all countries with centuries of history taking advantage of other countries?  

There are two issues at play. 

First there are no points of comparison.

We don't have any real idea of how things could be different. All of our experiences are based in this world and not some other world. 

Many of the people that say they like Capitalism are basing that not on any understanding on what Capitalism is, but based on other things like being afraid of change or being relatively content with their lives as it is. Even if their lives would be better under another system.  

The second issue is that the people who have the most power in this system, have the most incentive to fight any kind of change. 

Chrkeller said:
Zarkho said:

Capitalism is based, mainly, in 2 principles: private property of the means of production and free market.

Both tend, inevitably, to oligopoly and monopoly (since, when improving their competitiveness, companies will eventualy succed over the rest, who won't be able to compete any more, and leave the market to the most succesfull ones, which in their new status won't be affordable rivals for new small companies). Think, for example, in a company who success in lowering their pricess (maintaining quality) to a point where is not viable for the others to lower theirs without losses, and therefore can't compete anymore, being his market share absorbed by the succeding one, which then grows again, being able to again get more income, invest in new products or more efficient means of production, lowering prices again, etc. If one or few can still compete, new initiatives won't have the means and resources to challenge the already well stablished giants with competitive pricess, and innovative companies/products can only gain traction/market temporarily, getting into the same "tend to oligopoly/monopoly" loop again.

Once oligopoly/monopoly is reach, companies can control chains of production/producers and distribution, which can also turn into abussive policies, abussive prices and lobbying against consumers/citizens interests. BTW, this is exactly what we are living nowadays in most "developed" countries, with a bunch of big companies controling sectors such as food, clothing, tech, chemistry, transport, etc. through dozens of other subsidiary companies. In my country, we've seen an extraordinary hike in food prices fueled only by stellar profits from the main supermarket chains (this is: companies rising their prices not due to increased production costs, but to rise their profit margins so their investors have more and more benefits. And this is happening in almost every developed country now!).

So yeah, it's perfectly fine to be angry about a biased by birth system (and we haven't even considered things like exploitation, workers/consumers rights, environmental damages, rampant inequality, lack of access to basic services such as education or health, underpaid people who have to get 2 or 3 works just to pay rent and food, and so many other undesired stuff of both a total free market capitalism or a regulated one, which is what we have now!).

P.D.: For those who say that in capitalism you can get enough money or even get rich with enough effort, just think/research about how many hard working people can't afford basic stuff (housing, health, education, supplies, food, etc.) despite having full time jobs, even effort-intensive jobs. And remember that there's not enouth room for everyone to be an entrepeneur, since we live in a limited world with limited resources and when one owns something, others aren't allow to use that resource for their own initiatives.

A lot of hardworking people who don't build wealth picked poorly with career choice.

So Capitalism isn't a meritocracy, and people are being punished for making the "wrong" choices...  Sounds like a great thing to build a civilization on. 



the-pi-guy said:
Chrkeller said:

Much like other topics, a balance is best.  There is no perfect system.  Personally capitalism has worked for me.  I've worked hard and have accumulated wealth.  My larger point, which you intentionally missed, was a lot of people are poor because they don't work hard and can't budget.  Not all poor people are victims.

And regardless if people want to admit it, competition drives innovation.  There is a reason most innovations come from the same few countries over and over.

>There is a reason most innovations come from the same few countries over and over.

Despite the fact that every country has capitalism?

And it's just a coincidence that those countries you're thinking of, are all countries with centuries of history taking advantage of other countries?  

There are two issues at play. 

First there are no points of comparison.

We don't have any real idea of how things could be different. All of our experiences are based in this world and not some other world. 

Many of the people that say they like Capitalism are basing that not on any understanding on what Capitalism is, but based on other things like being afraid of change or being relatively content with their lives as it is. Even if their lives would be better under another system.  

The second issue is that the people who have the most power in this system, have the most incentive to fight any kind of change. 

Chrkeller said:

A lot of hardworking people who don't build wealth picked poorly with career choice.

So Capitalism isn't a meritocracy, and people are being punished for making the "wrong" choices...  Sounds like a great thing to build a civilization on. 

Here people are given freedoms to pursue their dreams.  How people leverage said freedoms are their choice.  But somebody who leverages their skillset to make a good living shouldn't feel guilty because somebody else wants entitlements for doing a lot less.  

I love fishing but I didn't pursue being a charter captain.....  not my fault if others picked hobbies expecting a big pay off.



I've benefited greatly from capitalism, still think the system sucks. Sure I've worked hard, or rather was even addicted to my work and software engineering is what I always wanted to do and was very good at. But I'm not going to say that someone that works just as hard or even much harder should have chosen a more profitable career when they can't even afford their home.

I'm very aware of how lucky I am, to have found a good job, kept it and reaped the benefits of being in the right place at the right time.

Capitalism thrives on inequality. It's a fundamental problem of capitalism which needs lots of checks and balances to keep it somewhat from spiraling out of control. It feels like we're losing that battle more and more as big corporations are taking over the world.



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Its ok to be angry about anything...as long as you dont hurt anyone in any way over it.



KLXVER said:

Its ok to be angry about anything...as long as you dont hurt anyone in any way over it.

This.





Chrkeller said:
Chrkeller said:

A lot of hardworking people who don't build wealth picked poorly with career choice.

So Capitalism isn't a meritocracy, and people are being punished for making the "wrong" choices...  Sounds like a great thing to build a civilization on. 

Here people are given freedoms to pursue their dreams. How people leverage said freedoms are their choice.  But somebody who leverages their skillset to make a good living shouldn't feel guilty because somebody else wants entitlements for doing a lot less.  

I love fishing but I didn't pursue being a charter captain.....  not my fault if others picked hobbies expecting a big pay off.

Freedom to pursue their dreams, yeah.

There are people who don't have access to good education, because their parents can't afford it. They don't have access to decent healthcare, they've probably seen relatives die because of that. By the time they reach adulthood, they better get any job they can because that's the only way their family can sustain themselves. What are the jobs someone like this can get? Cleaning rich people's homes... working at a supermarket... fishing, like you say, maybe not even that though. Theft is an alternative too. Without a job, they're getting kicked out and will have to live on the street, so they'll take anything they get and these are the options. They don't have "freedom" to get into a university or chase after some fancy career. I wonder what kinds of dreams these people pursue.

And this isn't some random minority of people. It's closer to being a majority, actually. So be thankful you had the privilege to choose what to do with your life, because billions of people don't.



Chrkeller said:
the-pi-guy said:

>There is a reason most innovations come from the same few countries over and over.

Despite the fact that every country has capitalism?

And it's just a coincidence that those countries you're thinking of, are all countries with centuries of history taking advantage of other countries?  

There are two issues at play. 

First there are no points of comparison.

We don't have any real idea of how things could be different. All of our experiences are based in this world and not some other world. 

Many of the people that say they like Capitalism are basing that not on any understanding on what Capitalism is, but based on other things like being afraid of change or being relatively content with their lives as it is. Even if their lives would be better under another system.  

The second issue is that the people who have the most power in this system, have the most incentive to fight any kind of change. 

Chrkeller said:

A lot of hardworking people who don't build wealth picked poorly with career choice.

So Capitalism isn't a meritocracy, and people are being punished for making the "wrong" choices...  Sounds like a great thing to build a civilization on. 

Here people are given freedoms to pursue their dreams.  How people leverage said freedoms are their choice.  But somebody who leverages their skillset to make a good living shouldn't feel guilty because somebody else wants entitlements for doing a lot less.  

I love fishing but I didn't pursue being a charter captain.....  not my fault if others picked hobbies expecting a big pay off.

"Freedom" is a meaningless word by itself. Every freedom gets juxtaposed against another freedom. 

The freedom of not having to worry about healthcare in a universal healthcare system is juxtaposed against the freedom of having the choice of not having healthcare. 

>But somebody who leverages their skillset to make a good living shouldn't feel guilty because somebody else wants entitlements for doing a lot less.  

This is dishonest framing.

1.) You're not being asked to feel guilty. 

2.) Plenty of people who do more, get less. 




A lot of hardworking people who don't build wealth picked poorly with career choice.

More and more people are being punished for career choices that would've been good-enough choices 20 years ago.  

The market is becoming increasingly competitive and one has to be on top of their game all the time to own house and have acceptable living standards, life shouldn't be a rat race, we are not slaves. 

Living standards are dropping everywhere in the modern world for increasingly bigger subset of the society. It used to be possible to own a house anywhere working most full time jobs, in Europe, the full time jobs you have to land to be comfortable to own a house are shrinking and the number of people who are already priced out of the market is alarming, and then we wonder why birth rates are falling...

Thankfully, I am not worried about my own future (or my present, I don't even work full time anymore), but when I look at people of my age, younger or older, it's a depressing state of affairs. The game is truly rigged. 

Not to mention, we're meant to progress as modern societies, live more comfortably, raise our living standards and reject modern slavery. All of the older people I know think the younger generation have it much times harder, and despite the increase productivity of the average worker across all industries, the money paid is getting those workers less than what the less-productive generation had. We are not even stagnating. 

Last edited by LurkerJ - on 25 March 2023