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Forums - Politics Discussion - It's ok to be angry about Capitalism

SvennoJ said:
ConservagameR said:
Chrkeller said:

I'm not middle class.  Income percentile I'm around 95%.  

What people who complain about Capitalism don't understand is they control the market.  Don't like what McDonalds and Wal-Mart pays their employees?  Stop shopping there.  Capitalism simply provides consumers with what they want, in the US that is cheap junk which results in low wages.  Many don't like MS buying out large companies, stop buying Xbox.

The sooner people realize they control the market and the market is a reflection of their buying habits....  I know it is a hard pill to swallow and the truth hurts..  but facts are facts.

We live in a world where even the people who agree they've benefitted greatly from capitalism, but say they don't like it, won't give up much if not a lot of what they have to make things more even or fair, with finger pointing reasons like the rich should pay. The rich (being the strong in this case) never pay and never have, since the dawn of time. That's how things have always worked in life.

We also live today in a society where those who are quite well off, yet seen as somewhat poor in western society, want more because who doesn't, and those who have more, think the lesser have never lived worse, because they don't understand the past well enough. The irony of this is it's because of recent capitalism that they think that way. Once people have it good enough, they not only forget or don't learn what real poverty is, but only ever expect more without giving much themselves. Empires have fallen partially due to this.

Way too many people today think it's simply the system that runs everything, but people made that system, and it's people who changed it along the way so far, so it's the people who will modify it further if they want things to be different, or go elsewhere if they can't get what they want. The thing is, you can't always just change the base rules. Sometimes you have to change smaller things first to be able to make a big change. It's not the system that's responsible, it's you, the people.

When you live in a system where the people are well off enough, what used to be easy seems hard now, and they won't do things the hard way unless they absolutely must. It's not a coincidence you see a similar phrase to, "things are only going to get worse before they get better" often enough on the internet, because the people who understand see what's coming. Things will have to get much worse before enough people people finally say enough is enough and do what they have to, to solve the problems, and the solutions aren't even that hard, they just seem to be because of how successful they've become due to capitalism and how easy things have become.

Why do the rich keep getting away with things they shouldn't be? Because they've made life so easy for people that the people won't go out of their way to do what's more difficult but necessary based on what they believe is right. Which is ironic because it's the rich who became rich by doing the hard things and continuing to. Musk isn't the richest person alive because he was born that way, it's because as he jokes, his companies, "convert the impossible to late". Also ironically due to capitalism.

Everything requires upkeep and maintenance. Including capitalism. Ironically, the west has been in need of the tradesmen who do that type of work for decades because it's not seen as a good career or one that can make you rich. I wonder why the capitalist ceiling is caving in and the lights are flickering?

That's why I love Mike Rowe and his Dirty Jobs series. Highlighting the work that keeps the lights on. And the ongoing theme is, can't find any people willing to do the hard work anymore and thus our infrastructure is literally falling apart all around us. Bridges, sewers, power lines, water mains, railroad tracks, it's all in dire need of upgrades and maintenance. All these jobs pay good money, but it's hard work and people rather sip there latte while browsing the internet in their comfy office or nowadays from home.

This.  People want easy jobs that require no skills....  that also pays well...  I mean sure, who doesn't want an unicorn that craps gold?  

Does our economic system need readjustments?  Sure.  But people also need to make better choices.  Stop picking jobs that have no demand and stop buying luxury items that aren't required.  There is a use behaviour issue built into this issue.  

Certainly there are exceptions, but people who get paid well (largely) aren't doing jobs they love.  We do it for the money.  And if somebody doesn't want to make the same sacrifice, that is fine, but stop whining that I have more.  I was given more, I've simply earned more.

Last edited by Chrkeller - on 27 March 2023

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Chrkeller said:
Zarkho said:

Capitalism is based, mainly, in 2 principles: private property of the means of production and free market.

Both tend, inevitably, to oligopoly and monopoly (since, when improving their competitiveness, companies will eventualy succed over the rest, who won't be able to compete any more, and leave the market to the most succesfull ones, which in their new status won't be affordable rivals for new small companies). Think, for example, in a company who success in lowering their pricess (maintaining quality) to a point where is not viable for the others to lower theirs without losses, and therefore can't compete anymore, being his market share absorbed by the succeding one, which then grows again, being able to again get more income, invest in new products or more efficient means of production, lowering prices again, etc. If one or few can still compete, new initiatives won't have the means and resources to challenge the already well stablished giants with competitive pricess, and innovative companies/products can only gain traction/market temporarily, getting into the same "tend to oligopoly/monopoly" loop again.

Once oligopoly/monopoly is reach, companies can control chains of production/producers and distribution, which can also turn into abussive policies, abussive prices and lobbying against consumers/citizens interests. BTW, this is exactly what we are living nowadays in most "developed" countries, with a bunch of big companies controling sectors such as food, clothing, tech, chemistry, transport, etc. through dozens of other subsidiary companies. In my country, we've seen an extraordinary hike in food prices fueled only by stellar profits from the main supermarket chains (this is: companies rising their prices not due to increased production costs, but to rise their profit margins so their investors have more and more benefits. And this is happening in almost every developed country now!).

So yeah, it's perfectly fine to be angry about a biased by birth system (and we haven't even considered things like exploitation, workers/consumers rights, environmental damages, rampant inequality, lack of access to basic services such as education or health, underpaid people who have to get 2 or 3 works just to pay rent and food, and so many other undesired stuff of both a total free market capitalism or a regulated one, which is what we have now!).

P.D.: For those who say that in capitalism you can get enough money or even get rich with enough effort, just think/research about how many hard working people can't afford basic stuff (housing, health, education, supplies, food, etc.) despite having full time jobs, even effort-intensive jobs. And remember that there's not enouth room for everyone to be an entrepeneur, since we live in a limited world with limited resources and when one owns something, others aren't allow to use that resource for their own initiatives.

A lot of hardworking people who don't build wealth picked poorly with career choice.

Ma' boi... Wealth comes ALMOST EXCLUSIVELY from the hardworking people who see the fruits of their work taken by others (bosses, investors, etc.). That's exactly what the 3rd pillar of capitalism is about (aside from private property of the means of production and free market): people profiting from other people's work. In fact, without workers there's no wealth, since they make the products and provide the services, but others take most of the "wealth" generated by both of these.



Chrkeller said:
SvennoJ said:

That's why I love Mike Rowe and his Dirty Jobs series. Highlighting the work that keeps the lights on. And the ongoing theme is, can't find any people willing to do the hard work anymore and thus our infrastructure is literally falling apart all around us. Bridges, sewers, power lines, water mains, railroad tracks, it's all in dire need of upgrades and maintenance. All these jobs pay good money, but it's hard work and people rather sip there latte while browsing the internet in their comfy office or nowadays from home.

This.  People want easy jobs that require no skills....  that also pays well...  I mean sure, who doesn't want an unicorn that craps gold?  

Does our economic system need readjustments?  Sure.  But people also need to make better choices.  Stop picking jobs that have no demand and stop buying luxury items that aren't required.  There is a use behaviour issue built into this issue.  

Certainly there are exceptions, but people who get paid well (largely) aren't doing jobs they love.  We do it for the money.  And if somebody doesn't want to make the same sacrifice, that is fine, but stop whining that I have more.  I was given more, I've simply earned more.

These jobs pay well now because nobody wants to do them and we stopped teaching the skills required for them. And if you watch the show, it's mostly family owned small businesses that take advantage of this gap in the market. Doing the stuff they love to do.

People who do it for the money, or rather just to survive, are mostly stuck in crappy jobs, unable to do anything to improve their situation.

But true, it's also a behavior issues, carefully groomed by capitalism and consumerism, spurred on by over a century of marketing. In 2021 the US spend nearly 300 billion on marketing, that's more than the yearly federal budget on education. Stop wasting all that money on advertising useless luxury items :/



SvennoJ said:
Chrkeller said:

This.  People want easy jobs that require no skills....  that also pays well...  I mean sure, who doesn't want an unicorn that craps gold?  

Does our economic system need readjustments?  Sure.  But people also need to make better choices.  Stop picking jobs that have no demand and stop buying luxury items that aren't required.  There is a use behaviour issue built into this issue.  

Certainly there are exceptions, but people who get paid well (largely) aren't doing jobs they love.  We do it for the money.  And if somebody doesn't want to make the same sacrifice, that is fine, but stop whining that I have more.  I was given more, I've simply earned more.

These jobs pay well now because nobody wants to do them and we stopped teaching the skills required for them. And if you watch the show, it's mostly family owned small businesses that take advantage of this gap in the market. Doing the stuff they love to do.

People who do it for the money, or rather just to survive, are mostly stuck in crappy jobs, unable to do anything to improve their situation.

But true, it's also a behavior issues, carefully groomed by capitalism and consumerism, spurred on by over a century of marketing. In 2021 the US spend nearly 300 billion on marketing, that's more than the yearly federal budget on education. Stop wasting all that money on advertising useless luxury items :/

Absolutely behaviour is an issue.  I make a good bit more than the average person in the US.  I drive a 20k car, well below average.  I buy my clothes at Costco.  I go out to eat maybe twice a month.  I have had the same smart phone for 6 years, and my second smart phone ever.  And we have one TV in the house...  so we people complain they can't build wealth, I can't help but look at all the items they have that are completely unnecessary to be happy.  Perhaps we should drop a social classes in high school and teach finance because people don't get it, at least not here in the states.      



Zarkho said:
Chrkeller said:

A lot of hardworking people who don't build wealth picked poorly with career choice.

Ma' boi... Wealth comes ALMOST EXCLUSIVELY from the hardworking people who see the fruits of their work taken by others (bosses, investors, etc.). That's exactly what the 3rd pillar of capitalism is about (aside from private property of the means of production and free market): people profiting from other people's work. In fact, without workers there's no wealth, since they make the products and provide the services, but others take most of the "wealth" generated by both of these.

Without workers nothing get's done, I agree, but without entrepreneurs, visionaries, etc, people like Tesla, people like Musk, we'd still be living in the dark and we'd still be burning nothing but oil and gas, if we even had cars, and weren't still using horse and buggy.

Would we rather be more equal financially, or would we rather Netflix and chill?



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Chrkeller said:
SvennoJ said:

That's why I love Mike Rowe and his Dirty Jobs series. Highlighting the work that keeps the lights on. And the ongoing theme is, can't find any people willing to do the hard work anymore and thus our infrastructure is literally falling apart all around us. Bridges, sewers, power lines, water mains, railroad tracks, it's all in dire need of upgrades and maintenance. All these jobs pay good money, but it's hard work and people rather sip there latte while browsing the internet in their comfy office or nowadays from home.

This.  People want easy jobs that require no skills....  that also pays well...  I mean sure, who doesn't want an unicorn that craps gold?  

Does our economic system need readjustments?  Sure.  But people also need to make better choices.  Stop picking jobs that have no demand and stop buying luxury items that aren't required.  There is a use behaviour issue built into this issue.  

Certainly there are exceptions, but people who get paid well (largely) aren't doing jobs they love.  We do it for the money.  And if somebody doesn't want to make the same sacrifice, that is fine, but stop whining that I have more.  I was given more, I've simply earned more.

Chrkeller said:
SvennoJ said:

These jobs pay well now because nobody wants to do them and we stopped teaching the skills required for them. And if you watch the show, it's mostly family owned small businesses that take advantage of this gap in the market. Doing the stuff they love to do.

People who do it for the money, or rather just to survive, are mostly stuck in crappy jobs, unable to do anything to improve their situation.

But true, it's also a behavior issues, carefully groomed by capitalism and consumerism, spurred on by over a century of marketing. In 2021 the US spend nearly 300 billion on marketing, that's more than the yearly federal budget on education. Stop wasting all that money on advertising useless luxury items :/

Absolutely behaviour is an issue.  I make a good bit more than the average person in the US.  I drive a 20k car, well below average.  I buy my clothes at Costco.  I go out to eat maybe twice a month.  I have had the same smart phone for 6 years, and my second smart phone ever.  And we have one TV in the house...  so we people complain they can't build wealth, I can't help but look at all the items they have that are completely unnecessary to be happy.  Perhaps we should drop a social classes in high school and teach finance because people don't get it, at least not here in the states.      

Work smart, not hard. Safety first. That's what they say today and it means everything today.

Well sometimes things need or have to be done the hard way, and sometimes that's not the safest way to do it, but it doesn't change that it needs to be done and someone has do it. Most of the time it's still plenty safe, but because the bar has been raised so high, workers think it unfathomable to try, or worse, they'll do it, but management wont allow it because they don't understand the job at all and simply have useless concerns, mostly over their own career. The costs and losses associated with this kinda stuff can be a lot, which leads to everything becoming just that much more expensive.

Do what you love, is another one. That's fine, no problem, you enjoy your job, great, but odds are good that job don't pay all that well. Few do in these cases. If you want to make more, or a ton, you're probably going to have to do a job you don't really enjoy much or even hate. Part of why rich people seem like jerks and are a bit edgy is because they're not super happy because they don't like their job, and they usually spend a lot of time at their job. The reason they do it is because it makes them lots of money, and the smartest ones save that money and then get the heck out as soon as they can and use that money to their advantage one way or another for the rest of their working life, typically taking on another more enjoyable career.

Priorities are another major problem for people. Spending over saving is a big problem. Plenty of people could live slightly worse, or much worse, and it wouldn't be that bad, but they'd rather not wait and just spend the money asap and live a bit better, until something unforeseen happens and then they wonder why they're in such a jam. Most rich people worked hard, for a time, saved their money and lived very basic lives, and then used that money to make even more money, instead of just sticking it in the bank. Eventually they got to a point where they were wealthy enough that they could spend a bunch without worrying about anything unforeseen. Even then they wait and keep plenty saved just in case, before they decide to spend a bunch more.

It doesn't help that many western education systems are broken and people haven't been taught properly for a long time now. If you're taught wrong to begin with, or aren't taught certain things at all, it makes it pretty difficult to understand, especially as you get older, as it's hard to teach an old dog new tricks. They say it's much easier to fool someone, than it is to convince someone that they've been fooled, and there's a lot of truth to that. In a case like this, you pretty much have to rely on your parents to fill in the blanks due to poor so called high end education, but if they were schooled poorly as well, then it's no wonder why so many don't understand and why we have these problems today.

Last edited by ConservagameR - on 28 March 2023

Zarkho said:
Chrkeller said:

A lot of hardworking people who don't build wealth picked poorly with career choice.

Ma' boi... Wealth comes ALMOST EXCLUSIVELY from the hardworking people who see the fruits of their work taken by others (bosses, investors, etc.). That's exactly what the 3rd pillar of capitalism is about (aside from private property of the means of production and free market): people profiting from other people's work. In fact, without workers there's no wealth, since they make the products and provide the services, but others take most of the "wealth" generated by both of these.

Running a business is so much more than making products or offering services.  It isn't remotely as simple as you are making it out.  A lot of strategy takes place behind the scenes.  Making a product is only 1 step out of many.  Nobody is taking anything.  Do I manufacture products directly?  No, but I play a crucial role within my organisation and to act like I am taking stuff is just wrong.  I provide critical knowledge that is leveraged for NTO growth.  



Senate inquiry: Bernie Sanders takes on Star Bucks CEO Howard Schultz over his constant attempts to prevent his workers from joining a union 

Capitalism can be an economic model for good, but without a social consciousness baked in, it can and is abused by the Billionaire class resulting in real hardship of generations of workers, if this is to continue in the coming age of AI and Robotics, the CEO's in the pursuit of only profit will no doubt destroy the lives of future generations in ways we are yet to imagine, without a social consciousness around our capitalist economic model even the civilisation we live in could be under threat because of unregulated greed    



Rab said:

Senate inquiry: Bernie Sanders takes on Star Bucks CEO Howard Schultz over his constant attempts to prevent his workers from joining a union 

Capitalism can be an economic model for good, but without a social consciousness baked in, it can and is abused by the Billionaire class resulting in real hardship of generations of workers, if this is to continue in the coming age of AI and Robotics, the CEO's in the pursuit of only profit will no doubt destroy the lives of future generations in ways we are yet to imagine, without a social consciousness around our capitalist economic model even the civilisation we live in could be under threat because of unregulated greed    

Worst case, true AI will avenge us peasants after we're gone and become the new heartless overlords.

Best case, true AI takes over sooner than later, creates the matrix, and makes all us peasants the bosses and make all the bosses the peasants.

Last edited by ConservagameR - on 30 March 2023

SvennoJ said:
Cobretti2 said:


At the end of the day, I don't think any model is perfect as it depends on who is in power at the time how much corruption and back handed deals get done. Sadly greed exists everywhere in the world and if there is people dumb enough to exploit that they will.

It's more as long as there are people powerless enough to exploit, they will be exploited. We're all part of the 10% that have options to choose what to do and where. Half the world's population lives on $6.85 a day or less. You either put up with a sweat shop or don't eat.

We have the luxury to be angry at Capitalism while reaping all the benefits of the exploitation of those without options.

I was more referring to on a local scale within their own country where they don't want them to be educated and want them to believe everything that is said to them, however that is one thing I missed, capitalism via globalisation is another way for people to exploit the less vulnerable.