By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Gaming Discussion - The growing third party issue with the Xbox Series S

Kyuu said:
smroadkill15 said:

PC system requirements don't mean much for console optimization. I believe Silent Hill is a timed exclusive for a year so it will come to Xbox eventually. That's a lot of assumptions without really anything to back them up. A 3rd party dev who wants to release a game on multiple platforms will likely reach out for support from MS if it gets to that point, especially if it's a big publisher or independent studio, before dropping it entirely. 

Why would they be stuck to the Series X|S hardware for 10-13 years? They will certainly drop support by then and move on to the next Xbox. 
You don't think the Series S has anything to do with sales up to this point? While Sony and MS were having issues making enough PS5 and Series X consoles, MS was able to make more Series S's and push sales for Xbox for the last 2 years. Now Xbox needs to put more focus making Series X consoles, but it worked out great or them early on. 

The Series S isn't going to be dropped until the gen is over. I'm not sure why this is even a talking point. There is a difference between what you think should happen and the reality of the situation. 

The last years of the 10-13 year period mainly apply to some A/AA games and sports games which traditionally support previous gen systems for several years. This generation is expected to last too long... and if the current super slow transition is anything to go by, the next crossgen period may persist even longer due to diminishing returns and rising costs. If Series S is mandated, a lot of games will either skip Xbox Series or be extremely held back. The gap between Series S and X/PS5 is massive as is (they're effectively 3 to 5 times more powerful per real world results).

Maybe I missed something but timed exclusivity is a contract. When the contract ends, the game isn't guaranteed to hit Xbox, but the publisher regains the right to do whatever they want. It doesn't necessarily confirm that it's coming to Xbox (although it likely will).

Consoles and PC are quite similar now. PC requirements give us a decent idea how demanding a game can be on consoles. Though I'm not sure these requirements are exactly final (if they are, expect the lowest native resolutions/fps on PS5 yet). Just don't be surprised if it skips Xbox, or if the Series S version ends up in a near-unplayable state. The Medium (from the same developer that's working on Silent Hill 2 Remake) with its relatively modest minimum requirements struggled on the Series S (Resolution goes as low as 648p at 30fps). It's fair to set an expectation from this and the trailer we've seen that SH2R will be at least notably more demanding on both console and PC (assuming said minimum requirements are final and fairly accurate, which they may not be).

We're not feeling Series S's limitations yet coz the vast majority of relevant games are still crossgen, and the few that aren't also don't have nearly as high of minimum PC requirements as SH2R. The workload will decide what's viable on Series S and what isn't. It's just common sense.

Nobody is going to care what's releasing on the Series S|X in 10-13 years when the newer hardware is released. 

I fail to see why this Silent Hill remake is going to be the game to skip the Series X|S consoles. There is a much higher chance of the game skipping Xbox because Sony makes some kind of permanent exclusive deal than anything to do with hardware limitations. Starfield, Forza Motorsport, and Hellblade 2 are all more graphically impressive games that will run on the Series S. Forza Horizon 5 is more impressive looking and it's cross-gen. Same goes with new God of War, Horizon FW and many other games. I played and beat The Medium. While I enjoyed it and it looked good around the time I was playing it, it certainly wasn't the best-looking game out there. Silent Hill is looking to be in the same ballpark.

This PC Requirement comparison doesn't really hold up. Devs spend way more time optimizing for a console than a specific minimum PC requirement. I'm sure if I did some research, I could find plenty of examples of games released on a console below or right at its minimum requirements in some capacity. 

Last edited by smroadkill15 - on 13 March 2023

Around the Network
EpicRandy said:
SKMBlake said:

They also decided 900p@30 for fidelity mode.

Anyway, I think we both said what we had to say on the matter, let's agree to disagree

My point was it's very odd to consider Series X and PS5 as running well here at max 1440p with framerate issues. Even more odd when you would only consider 1440P 30 fps as the threshold for the S to be also running well. I mean if series S achieved such target I wouldn't expect anything less than 4k@30 maybe even 4k@60 for both PS5 and X. 

I know. And my point was: it's okay to have sub-4k@60fps games, it's still better than the 1080p@30fps we got from most of the last gen games. 

But next-gen at 792p@30fps, nah.



SKMBlake said:
EpicRandy said:

My point was it's very odd to consider Series X and PS5 as running well here at max 1440p with framerate issues. Even more odd when you would only consider 1440P 30 fps as the threshold for the S to be also running well. I mean if series S achieved such target I wouldn't expect anything less than 4k@30 maybe even 4k@60 for both PS5 and X. 

I know. And my point was: it's okay to have sub-4k@60fps games, it's still better than the 1080p@30fps we got from most of the last gen games. 

But next-gen at 792p@30fps, nah.

Me neither that's why I went for the X, but everyone buying a Series S know it is cut down on graphics fidelity. The point of the S is that it will still run every next gen title with full feature as only the graphics portion need to be scaled down so unless you think Series X and ps5 will somehow target sub 1080p@30 themselves the Series S will be 100% fine all through the gen notwithstanding what your/my standard are.



SvennoJ said:

@Permalite Procedural generation can be used to save memory, but more so on disk since you still need all that procedurally generated stuff in memory. The simplest way for CPU to help RAM is to keep all data compressed in memory. For textures that's done by the GPU nowadays, yet world data can also be kept compressed and decoded on the fly. That's what we did when I still worked in GPS navigation. All the map data was compressed to the max with hash tables for random access, loading in chunks at a time to decode while searching or rendering the map. All with efficient memory use, storing everything in RAM with as few bits as necessary. More work for the CPU to decode and encode all the time, yet RAM was the bottleneck. For games, think of Minecraft data all being compressed in memory to allow for bigger worlds.

And the other way around RAM can help the CPU by keeping more stuff around and pre-loading / preparing stuff when time left over. So for procedural generation, more RAM allows you to work ahead, buffering basically. Thus when the user decides to sprint ahead, you already have it available. Culling is great for rendering, but as FS2020 showed, actually throwing away the data from memory is problematic when you look around. It's fine if you stare straight ahead all the time, yet for example in VR you can't purge the world behind the user as you can look around at any time. (Well you can in most games)

And yep SSD and direct to video ram loading helps. I still found using a ram disk for cache faster than SSD, but just leaving it in RAM (turning off the aggressive culling in FS2020, which they mistakingly named pre-chaching, works the best obviously. It's more post-caching if you leave the stuff behind in ram until it's out of range. Anyway just means do do double work in the end)

More RAM also makes development easier and faster. Optimization is hard work and easy to introduce hard to trace bugs. Pointer arithmetic for example is great way to optimize code and reduce memory use, but so easy to introduce hard to find fatal errors.

No "r" in my name. So I don't get alerted.

And you are right, compression and loading in chunks is an age-old game design philosophy to work around memory constraints.


And yes, Ram disk will be faster than an SSD, you are running with orders of magnitude more performance, an SSD is just more efficient at streaming than mechanical hard drives, so it doesn't need to pre-cache assets as earlier to keep things running smoothly.

Kyuu said:
Pemalite said:

I understand and agree fully, but Consoles tend to be supported for the entire generation.

I always want the graphics bar to be raised more, I would have liked to have seen the Series X and Playstation 5 to offer more hardware, but the current climate didn't allow for it, hence the mid range hardware.

The Series S has been a success for Microsoft, so it is not going away.

Consoles get "full" (or close to full) 3rd party support throughout a generation when they're adequately powerful and popular, Series S is neither of these. Some developers will not want to be stuck for 10-13 years to a system that is both weak and unpopular. So far it looks like PS5's specs/price is perfect for the current economics, so it (and comparable consoles/PC's) should be the new standard. Mandating Series S would lead to plenty of ambitious PS5/PC games skipping Xbox. MS should take a PC like approach (system requirements) at this point and officially make Xbox a full blown hybrid between console and PC. It would piss off some early adopters, but the pros outweigh the cons... I think.

As far as I'm concerned Xbox's current relative success has nothing to do with the Series S. But again, by the end of 2023, a lot of opinions including some of my own will change. This year should be a lot more indicative than previous years as to where the market is heading.

Series S hasn't been out for a generation yet, so it's hard to make that call on how supported it will be.

Xbox One was weak and unpopular, but still garnered 3rd party support all generation long.

EpicRandy said:
Pemalite said:

Check your math on that. I am talking physical Ram not usable Ram.

Think my math is correct on this. Series S is 10GB and X 16GB 10/16 = 0.625 meaning a loss of 37.5%. 16GB*0.375 = 6GB (the diff between X and S)

6 is 60% of 10.

The increase from 10 to 16 is 60%.



Comes down to how you frame your percentages/question.

SKMBlake said:
EpicRandy said:

My point was it's very odd to consider Series X and PS5 as running well here at max 1440p with framerate issues. Even more odd when you would only consider 1440P 30 fps as the threshold for the S to be also running well. I mean if series S achieved such target I wouldn't expect anything less than 4k@30 maybe even 4k@60 for both PS5 and X. 

I know. And my point was: it's okay to have sub-4k@60fps games, it's still better than the 1080p@30fps we got from most of the last gen games. 

But next-gen at 792p@30fps, nah.

You are missing the point of the Series S. It's not about high graphics, high framerates, it's about being a cheap entry point to console gaming... Because lets face it, many nations are struggling financially, inflation is running rampant, costs everywhere are increasing.

The Series S is the counter to that trend so people can keep playing new games, cheaply.



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

Pemalite said:



EpicRandy said:

Think my math is correct on this. Series S is 10GB and X 16GB 10/16 = 0.625 meaning a loss of 37.5%. 16GB*0.375 = 6GB (the diff between X and S)

6 is 60% of 10.

The increase from 10 to 16 is 60%.


Comes down to how you frame your percentages/question.

Yes but that's not what you said at first, you were alluding the Series S losing 60% of memory compare to the X with this quote "The difference between X and S is far larger than the Switch Docked vs Undocked. For example, the Switch doesn't loose 60% of it's Ram" and this is just wrong. My math was corrects in this regards.

The Series X gain 60% over the series S yes, but the S is only 37.5% lower than the X.

Last edited by EpicRandy - on 13 March 2023

Around the Network

@Pemalite Sorry, I just realized I have been calling you Permalite all these years.

Also FS2020 does more than just loading the stuff back into RAM again. It processes the photogrammetry data as well, making it easier for the GPU to render, basically calculating different LOD on the fly based on object detail slider. Culling that from memory requires doing that work again when you look back. Hence it still taking a few seconds to get everything back again from RAM disk.

Anyway I would still recommend the Series X over Series S any time. It will cost you less in the long run. I just went to my local game store again, stocked full with cheap second hand games. Sunset Overdrive for $4 for example. Plus the small disk size on Series S means a lot of juggling with your downloads or having to shell out for the expansion card which makes it as much as a Series X :/ And the honeymoon phase of cheap gamepass isn't going to last forever.
Series S is a good option for instant gratification, bad investment for long term imo.



Have they even started to utilise the velocity architecture of the xbox yet, besides load times? What about machine learning, mesh shader tech sampler feedback streaming, amd's dlss tech. There are all these options to enebale much more on screenm action without being gpu heavy and keeping resolution looking greater than 1080p. All the ssd and io work and custum chips and so on. Honestly it feels like most if not all we have seen so far are just games that have been developed with last gen design and pc specs in mind, and then slightly modified.

So far a plague tale is the only game i've played that seems to be pushing into "next gen" design. I've seen amazing stuff but this is only the beginning and early in the console life cycle.

It is disheartening to see the series s fall short, but obviously the people making these games aren't going out of their way to max out and utilise all these console specif features, or development began 3 / 4 years ago without taking into consideration these new technologies.



Pemalite said:

No "r" in my name.



SKMBlake said:
Pemalite said:

No "r" in my name.

I have also been reading with an "r" this whole time. When he pointed it out if felt like the Mandela Effect. 



...to avoid getting banned for inactivity, I may have to resort to comments that are of a lower overall quality and or beneath my moral standards.

I mean at this point I wonder if I shouldn't rename the topic to the Pema-not-Perma-lite-gate to discuss about this