The morality of supporting unhinged ultra-religious far right Israeli government and their genocidal tendencies aside, does Biden think his current stance hinders or aids his re-election? Even more baffling for Kier Starmer who had the entire nation in the bag, including Scotland, until weeks ago. 

I am avoiding the images, videos and headlines coming out of that region during my work days because I know it's heartbreaking, it's the start of the weekend and I am already fuming. What a disaster unfolding in front of everyone's eyes.

I used to make excuses for why we didn't feel strongly about what happened to Yemenis and did nothing to help because it never got enough media attention, but for crying out loud, everyone can see what's happening here, the majority everywhere don't support bombing hospitals, refugee camps, and ambulances.  

And as I mentioned repeatedly, good for China, good for Saudi, and good for Russia, these people are looking out for themselves and their interests, I don't have a problem with them rising and bettering lives for their citizens. We, on the other, shouldn't surrender our energy, manufacturing or independence using globalisation as an excuse and only react when shit hits the fan. Far too many instances to list where we have actually come to harm because of this mentality just in the last 3 years. 

The underlined isn't true, I have repeatedly sung Biden praises in this particular forum and I have on multiple occasions shared videos and articles of the positive impact his policies have already had on manufacturing alone, a lot more in the works because of those policies. Along with pulling out of Afghanistan, these are the two main reasons why I want him to be re-elected. I'll dig my previous posts up and share more recent updates if I get the chance. 

As for the other posts up there which I didn't quote, the "nothing could be done about anything" stance has always been false, it's more ridiculous to suggest in the context of recent developments that took place after less than one term under Biden. The "nothing can be done" mantra used to contradict tested & proven policies that worked in the past, but it's even more ridiculous to fall back on as an (no) argument because it contradicts what's happening on the ground in the present, again, only after few years under Biden. If you lack the insight to know what could be done, it doesn't mean that nothing could be done.

I am going to address just the China point of your post for right now.

You say we should not give up our energy, manufacturing or independence to globalization but isn't that exactly what a capitalistic society does.  It will always move manufacturing to a location where labor is cheap including goods and services. The next thing is to then sell those goods or even services at a higher price to make a profit.  What I always find funny is that most communistic and socialistic countries would rather keep their manufacturing, and other industry within their country while the same people who deride those social economic cultures also tell us how great and good capitalism is but then ignore the downsides. 

When prices goes up in the US, the first thing people do is blame the current political party they believe is in power.  We see that with gas and food prices.  Americans hate to pay more money for anything and even though gas and food prices is high everywhere, they do not care because as long as their leaders provide a scapegoat they are all good.

My basic argument here is that the reason why our manufacturing goes overseas and other industry is because of the American people.  Americans are use to buying cheap goods and when they cannot, they seek to find someone to blame.  Americans are use to getting high salary for their work and they sure will not accept lower wages which is the same for the businesses in the US.  So the problem with our industry going to other countries is because of the American people.  They would not do those jobs at a lower wage.  Those same Americans will also not accept paying higher prices for goods because we have many made in America companies where their prices are a little bit higher but Americans show every day they rather pay less money to cheaper goods then support their own industry within the US.  Companies pay people huge salaries to Analyze the market and they see this pattern has not change so guess what, they send those jobs and that industry to countries that have cheap labor.

So what is the solution.  Well for the US, there is none because as long as Americans purchase cheap goods over locally produce goods nothing will change.  What will change is that as China GDP grows, their population will also want changes in wages.  Its already happening where you cannot pay people the same amount for a job that would pay 3 times as much in the US or another country while making crap in China.  This will force China to raise prices which then will force companies to move their manufacturing to another country.  This will also make Chinese's citizens look to move elsewhere for their family as they can make more money with their skillsets as well.

So to conclude my point.  The same thing you would praise the US for is exactly why what you are criticizing has nothing to do with who is in charge of the government but is a direct issue with the capitalistic society of the US and its people and its why it will not change. Think about it this way, when Trump was talking all tough about keeping manufacturing in the US but no one in his party every held him to the same standard.  He never had to bring back any of his business to the US and that includes any of his children and he really only did a few publicity stunts but no real policy because that would upset a lot of people money including all the people who support him.  It was all smoke and mirrors but neither party is looking to make any change because they all depend on it.

Good to see the left significantly outperform projections and norms yet again in this week's elections. I really needed that pickmeup after all the doom polling I've been seeing lately. Hopefully this trend continues next year.

KY: Beshear was re-elected. This guy needs to run for President.
VA: Dems gained control of the House of Delegates and kept control of the Senate (however, they did lose one senate seat), torpedoing Glenn Youngkin as a rising star for the GOP and killing his chances of expanding either his "anti-woke" agenda or putting a state abortion ban on the books.
OH: Abortion rights and legalized MJ passed.
PA: Dems expanded their majority on the PA Supreme Court.

I have to limit my exposure as well, fuming at how ineffective the UN is. Should be called the DN.

I've already written my MPP as well as the PM, signed numerous petitions for a ceasefire and donated to Amnesty International and others. Canada keeps sitting on the sidelines while censuring any opposing voices just like the US just censured Tlaib Rashida.
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/rep-rashida-tlaib-faces-2nd-censure-resolution-criticism/story?id=104693855

Here in Ontario Sarah Jama got booted for using the 'wrong' words
https://www.chch.com/mpp-sarah-jama-to-challenge-censure-motion-reaffirms-support-for-palestine/

In the UK its Imran Hussein that resigned himself so he can keep speaking out
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/nov/08/imran-hussain-labour-frontbencher-resigns-gaza-ceasefire

I've been following the updates on CNN yet while they were pretty complete at the start, they're cherry picking now, or rather trying to keep a balance between IDF 'successes' and the atrocities, ignoring the many protests like this one
https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/congressional-staffers-stage-walkout-gaza-ceasefire-1234872959/
No coverage on CNN about this today
https://apnews.com/article/new-york-times-protest-gaza-ceasefire-c1482efbb3f767a0898a3d20f9647bc2
Pro-Palestinian demonstrators occupied the lobby of The New York Times on Thursday, demanding an immediate cease-fire in Gaza while accusing the media of showing a bias toward Israel in its coverage of the Israel-Hamas war.
Nor most of the other protests around the world.

What's happening to free speech in the US? ACLU has to step in
https://www.aclu.org/press-releases/aclu-open-letter-to-colleges-and-universities-reject-efforts-to-restrict-constitutionally-protected-speech-on-campuses
https://www.aclu.org/news/free-speech/why-we-must-reject-efforts-to-restrict-constitutionally-protected-speech-on-college-campuses

Instead of encouraging people in civil dialog, university campuses are trying to stifle free speech
https://www.vox.com/2023/11/5/23944007/free-speech-israel-palestine-college-universities-campus-protests

Jewish activists against the war are having it even harder. Arrested for protests, often ostracized by their own community, even their own family.
https://www.npr.org/2023/10/28/1208980580/for-some-jewish-peace-activists-demands-for-ceasefire-come-at-a-personal-cost

Meanwhile all Biden and Blinken do is try to whitewash what's going on, trying to give Israel as much time as possible to flatten Gaza. I've been on and off following this conflict over the past 40 years, I never imagined it could get this bad. It's been over a month now, food, water, medical supplies, fuel are running / have run out. The world is watching genocide happening live. Yet everyone is afraid of the US to actually do anything about it.

This inaction from the US, playing lapdog to Netanyahu, these double standards will set the world decades backwards. Antisemitism and Islamophobia are both greatly on the increase already and will only get worse each day there is no ceasefire and more people die. War doesn't solve problems, it only pushes them into the future for our children and grandchildren to solve.

What is going on in congress
https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/08/politics/democrats-israel-divide-deepens/index.html

Yeah, another weekend spent digesting disgusting madness from all around the world. The best the west mustered is suggesting "humanitarian pauses" which is the exact numbers of hours between Israeli raids anyway, enough the time for the people in Gaza to figure out who died, who's dying and who just lost a limb while the IDF fuel their tanks and reload their bombs and hit another hospital and loads of children in the name of abolishing Hamas. Madness, the only winner here is the far right ultra religious Netanyahu, meanwhile Biden and Sir Kier are willingly giving up electoral advantages supporting him, especially in Scotland where the SNP is the party with a reasonable stance on this, I despise the SNP! 

I thought Bernie was a grassroots politician and AIPAC can't control what he said, why is he with Biden on this? What a shit show all around, Europeans have their heads inside Biden's butt when Americans never have to deal with the aftermath of Middle Eastern crises the way we do, neither from the energy price hikes point of view nor when it comes to the influx of immigrants. But hey, we finally have a unified voice in abetting the genocidal maniac Netanyahu is. I have been slagging the west off for lacking unity and creating imaginary divides, I get what I ask for after all, unity.... but in the worst way possible. At least with the Yemenis with there was a pretence we cared about the 0.25 mil of Yemenis that died and the millions displaced, but now? Barf. 

I have written to my MP but I am not expecting much. I upped my contributions to both Breaking Points and Novara Media as their coverage has been excellent (I didn't expect any less). 

I just watched a video on how Gazans haven't slept in a month..... the longest I have been without food was 4 days, but without sleep? I am dead inside if I don't get my 8 hours, let alone not sleeping for a month. This is collective punishment. 

I'm starting to feel dead inside from how people are actively ignoring even wanting to talk about this conflict and outright support in the name of 'defense'. And it's not just Gaza, it's the West Bank as well, plus attacks on free speech all over the world. You're an antisemitist if you feel Palestinians have the same rights as anyone else. Mention genocide or apartheid (like Desmond Tutu an expert on apartheid described Israel) and you might lose your job, get censured or get banned from campus.
https://www.cbsnews.com/newyork/news/columbia-university-student-groups-suspended-students-for-justice-in-palestine-jewish-voice-for-peace/

I can't believe how brave the medical workers and journalists are that are still covering the war and trying to help as many people as possible despite lack of every single basic need and constant fear of being bombarded or shot at.

The war in Ukraine is terrible, this is so much worse. 2.1 million people trapped with no way out. Many still living in refugee camps from earlier wars and occupation. The media has successfully turned Palestinians into the new "untermensch". WW2 rages on, never really ended. Actually the Israel-Palestine situation started in WW1 with the Balfour declaration in 1917. Europe just exported its problems, shame and guilt to the middle East where it festers on.

My opinion on Europe has taken a nosedive as well. First with Ukraine, where the EU seems more interested in perpetuating this war instead of ending it. Here's our excess military equipment to keep the Russians busy. How is still going. And now the ongoing support of Israel, mostly out of shame over WW2, unable to see how the roles have reversed. The oppressed becoming the oppressor is repeated all over history. Same as children suffering child abuse end up becoming bullies in school (or worse school shootings). The world is still at a mental age of 8 at best :(

I mainly follow CNN and Al Jazeera's live coverage while cross checking with Google searches and other major news sites. Staying away from Twitter.

For a look inside the war zone (limited graphic, very emotional though)

Human resilience is amazing, both good and bad. It's why 'security' by fences, occupation and oppression will never work.

That was a week ago, things have gotten so much worse since then and deteriorating by the minute. Looks like she got out, or close to.
https://www.instagram.com/reel/CzeCAC9oVTv/

Another likely pointless resolution as long as the USA keeps on saber rattling in the middle East while diverting the talks to humanitarian pauses.
https://english.ahram.org.eg/NewsContent/58/1262/512034/War-on-Gaza/War-on-Gaza/ArabIslamic-summit-falls-short-Draft-resolution-co.aspx

So far 756 aid trucks have entered Gaza, out of 450 daily needed, 15,750 so far. 15,000 short of the normal daily needs (without bombing)
2.1 million people living without sanitation, no more safe drinking water and increasing famine.
The time to act was weeks ago and the UN still can't even produce a draft statement they can agree upon.

Don't know if it's useful to compare which is worst. What is happening or has happened in Ukraine, Israel and Gaza is horrific all round. By the end of both wars they'll both likely have causalities in the hundreds of thousands. I wish there could be a cease-fire to evacuate civilians but unfortunately I don't think IDF has any intention of stopping, no matter what anyone says to them.

Mainly take issue with the EU comment, if you mean that EU is perpetuating the war in Ukraine by not sending Ukraine what it needs to crush Russia faster and instead trickling out aid then I would agree. If you mean perpetuating it by not doing a peace deal with Russia then that's incorrect. The West tried to warn Russia multiple times, had Macron practically on his hands and knees begging Putin not to do it.

The difference is that The West is aiding Israel in invading another region (Gaza) and Israel goes on indiscriminate bombings. While with Ukraine, the West is aiding Ukraine is defending itself from an aggressor and even then slaps dozens of rules of them which they follow for the most part. These situations aren't comparable. Unfortunately Ukraine is being dragged into Israel discussions more and more, around the topic of funding wars.

I believe the messaging should be different on Ukraine. We are not "funding a war", we are funding a defence. Ukraine's fight is for its survival. There is no peace deal, Russia does not want one, they have never wanted a true one, a "peace deal" only delays Russia's ultimate goal while they rebuild which is a complete takeover and ethnic genocide of Ukraine. For Ukraine it is fight or die, they have no other choice.

The West is aiding Ukraine in that, the West is not deciding when Ukraine's war ends because Ukraine is its own country, only Ukraine has the final say on when the war ends. These are the differences. What the IDF has done to Palestinians over the years is horrific and the West can be and should be criticised for turning a blind eye to it, Ukraine's situation is different though and they deserve our full support.

I don't know enough about the Israel/Hamas conflict, I think both IDF and Hamas are abhorrent (Netanyahu is a piece of shit too) and neither care about the innocents in their war, I feel sorry for the innocent Palestinians and Israelis caught up in the war and I honestly don't know the solution to this particular matter so I won't pretend to know. This situation is far more complicated than Russia vs Ukraine.

It's the double standards I'm accusing the West off. Jump to the aid of Ukraine, which is the right thing to do. But then not even willing to acknowledge the suffering caused in Gaza (and also the West Bank) for as long as I can remember, now doubting the casualty figures, downplaying the damage caused and standing blindly behind Israel. That is the problem. You have it right, "Russia does equally as terrible things to Ukrainians as IDF does to Palestinians" yet instead of sanctions and demanding / working towards a ceasefire, the US keeps sending aid and weapons to Israel, while blocking the UN to do anything by arguing over what language to use and making sure Israel stays protected from their neighboring countries so they can't intervene either.

And yes the Russia-Ukraine situation should have been finished by now with UN peace keeping forces in place. Instead aid and mostly old weapons keep trickling towards the Ukraine, keeping the conflict going. And now the US is postponing aid to the Ukraine to get 14.5 billion send to Israel asap.
https://apnews.com/article/house-israel-aid-ukraine-republicans-biden-gaza-b7bfe528b12ac5954cfd5c034f11320d Biden might still veto it though, not to scrap the aid to Israel but to get the full aid package back including Ukraine.

Yes support Ukraine, that has gone on too long. Netanyahu and the IDF should be charged as war criminals, as well as the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades and Mohammed Deif (leadership of Hamas military if Google is correct, had to look it up). The latter is not in debate though, yet for some reason the IDF gets turned a blind eye and only has to say, Hamas is hiding in hospitals and schools and apparently fuel their rockets with diesel and electricity etc.

I don't know what the way out is either. I do know that the Arab world will not trust the West again for decades to come. This war has far reaching implications for world safety, stoking up antisemitism as well as Islamophobia. Going back to the 1967 Oslo accords seems to be impossible with how much land Israel has grabbed since then. Yet a 2 state solution simply isn't viable anymore with how little fragmented land is left for the millions of Palestinians to live on.

It's a mess

I was wondering why there was no thread about Israel and Palestine. Honesty it deserves it's own thread.


@SvennoJ "The oppressed becoming the oppressor is repeated all over history"

Well said. This shit been driving me insane for years. So many people can't see this though. This is why wars continue because the oppressed kids become the oppressors and the cycle goes on and on and on. At some point the world leaders need to stand up and acknowledge this.

Hamas needs to be taken down but not at the cost of innocent lives.