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Rats fleeing a sinking ship.



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Machiavellian said:

Will Powell crumbling be the start of the wall of lies falling down and everyone who is looking to make a deal rush in to get one before its too late.

Could be now that Cheesebro is flipping, too.



RolStoppable said:
LurkerJ said:

(...)

There is some talk about the new relationship with Iran fostered by China, joining BRICS, economical diversification and their roadmap for the future, as much as I hate these autocracies, but I say good for them. Too bad for us, western democracies are falling on their sword and can't seem to get their act together, maybe we need to the threat grow even closer to sober up. 

Certainly, things need to get worse for the West to deal with the big picture in a more united way.

But I'd say our saving grace is that the West has a lot more common with each other than the BRICS countries and their allies. All those autocracies are ultimately very selfish, so just about the only thing that unites them is their disdain for the West. They talk about a new multipolar world order, but I don't think they'd be able to agree that, for example, China takes the reins.

That's why the bigger threat for the West is to collapse from within due to the stupidity of their own peoples who vote for far-right populism.

A lot of what I am going to say isn't aimed at you, it's general thoughts fuelled by the recent events in the Middle East. 

BRICS are selfish, but they don't have to see eye to eye to deal us blows, they have done this as individual countries and found ways to benefit from these blows through symbiosis. Examples are many, recent ones Russia's war, it's a choice only Russia made, and they only needed the others to stay neutral, and they neutral they have been.

Look at how India bought all Russian oil it can at deep discounts and sold it to us at inflated prices. Saudi Arabia, not a BRICS country, has single handedly caused energy-price-dependent inflationary pains on us despite us begging them not to. When Biden threatened them with consequences, they doubled down by inviting Russia to OPEC, now known as OPEC+, and no consequences were suffered. Europe at large doesn't know what energy prices are going to be like this winter because our far-right allies are looking for ways to benefit themselves at our expense. We are that weak, MBS is slowly realising this and testing the limits, again, I say good for them. 

When it comes to "left vs right", I think we need to acknowledge that the rise of China has happened majorly under supposedly left leaning politicians in both, the USA and Europe, it seems like only yesterday when Hillary and Biden have campaigned on "China ain't bad folks", Hillary had to be dragged kicking and screaming by Bernie to change her mind on this issue before campaigning for her. 

It's also important to note that politicians from both sides of the aisle has shielded far right governments from any meaningful criticism or consequences for their actions, "as long as you buy our weapons, we'll turn a blind eye", and we stupidly believed this won't come back to bite us. For years, whenever I point out our idiotic reliance on far right governments in Saudi, China and Israel, I have been hit back with "they are our necessary allies, this means they're different from Russia". Well, there you go, we're being tag teamed by all them, and now the right-wing in our turfs is the direct beneficiary from the economical turmoil and inflation the left and the right equally responsible for by empowering far-right governments all around the world, it is self-serving for the right for sure, but why does the left do the same? Because Bernie is right, we live in a corporate dystopia delivered to us by the oligarchy.

We should hold our all politicians, Trump and Obama, even when it's our "allies", turning a blind eye to what's happening to Yemen and Gaza, or supporting Jihadists against Assad and the destruction of Syria just because we think our version of democracy should be imposed on others, not reflecting enough on the Iraq war, all of that have and will continue to come back and bite us. 

As for BRICS being selfish, we actually need to learn some of that. Biden seems to understand this as evident by his Inflation Act. Macron's and Kemi Badenoch hissy fits over the selfish inflation reduction act were embarrassing, but Macron's subsequent conclusion was correct, we need to stop depending on others to deliver what we should achieve ourselves (or something along those lines). Biden's type of selfishness should be encouraged and applied more widely. But instead, we get selfish and petty over non-issues like Brexit. The tyrannical behaviour by the EU over the AstraZeneca vaccine was petty, how some of our politicians and the media are still using the EU as an excuse for their deficiencies despite the fact that we left is childish, I am sure the BRICS is watching us being children and laughing in Chinese. 

We also need to point that the media has failed us miserably. Watching the Turkish elections, one of Erdogan's lackeys was asked about the media bias in their country, he rightfully hit back pointing out that our media is owned by rich people pushing rich people's agenda. I'd add that when they're not pushing the rich's agenda, they're creating imaginary divide just to drive engagement up as well as their revenues, despite the real chaos this causes, chaos which our detractors directly benefit from.

Brexit shouldn't have been a dividing issue, Britain wanted to be governed differently, no more differently than a country like Norway, big fucking deal. But hey, we're still beating the Brexit drums despite the fact that Britain exports to the EU are the highest they have ever been, business investment in the UK is the highest it's ever been (and this is after adjusting for inflation), long-term growth outcome is projected to be higher than that all major economies in the EU. Brexit campaign was full of lies, but the remaining campaign is evidently has been full of falsehoods that will never come true, despite the shit-show the Tories have been for 5 years and COVID19. 

Here is the kicker, I actually don't care for the obsession with growth from either side anyway, because it's never a metric of our living standards, an important metric, sure, but it will only matter to the rich if our politicians don't capitalise on it and translate it to benefits for the regular people. What will improve our living standards is for a government to solve the housing crisis and make owning a house an attainable dream for most of its people, a crisis that originated while being in the EU (and not because of being in the EU). Yet, watching the media, one can only conclude that the solution to all of our problems is either leaving or rejoining. 

The media also needs to stop crying wolf, it only divides us further, it turns their coverage into political-point-scoring rather than covering policies on their merits. I am no fan of BoJo, but he's not far right or remotely in the same basket as Trump, the guy delivered a massive NHS investment package, under him, a record of doctors was recruited (funnily, facilitated by Brexit), gender freaking neutral language was adopted by the NHS under his watch, as well as diversity quota for management positions and I am all for it. Green policies that were more ambitious than the EU targets, massive budget dedicated to turning our cities into cycling friendly spaces and low traffic neighbourhoods. When it's all said and done, he might just end up to the left of Kier Starmer. He's among the few leaders in Europe with a correct unshakable stance on the Russian invasion, wasn't it for Britain and the US, Macron would still be looking for ways to preserve Putin's ego. This doesn't mean that he should've been given a free pass for his scandals, of which there were many, far from it, but we need to draw meaningful distinctions between individual policies, rather than the tired useless approach "right vs left" formula that doesn't educate anybody on what is happening and who is responsible for what. 

To finish this rant, I am trying to do my bits by support of grassroots projects financially by making monthly contributions to left-leaning Youtube media outlets, Novara media in the UK and Breaking Points in the US, I have no regrets seeing how both have been covering the Israeli-Gaza conflict these days. I disagree with all of their presenters/hosts with their views on immigration which I believe is too idealistic and ignores real concerns, but they're the best I can find and I think with time they will rethink their stance on immigration, even if that doesn't happen, it's fine, we are never going to agree on everything, as long as they continue the type of coverage that seeks to educate rather than tribalise. 

Last edited by LurkerJ - on 21 October 2023

China rose in power because of China. Stop trying to dimmish their single minded pursuit of global domination just like the US had that single minded pursuit before. No, America was never going to reign in China because China figured out a long time ago that dependance on America is a fallacy. They have become a global power because China is in everything not just the US. They are in every country exploiting every market and using their most valuable resource which is their people to make it happen. Cheap educated labor where you can send them all over the world to bring in valued resources to their country and government. Lol, this is why China succeeds while a lot of the west flounders because they are to close to sniffing their own butts.



Mark Meadows folded, yeah the flood gates are probably going to open up big time. Actually if you are folding in the federal case, you probably should hurry and fold in the GA state case as well.



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The rise of China based on what?

If we look at GDP, it basically tripled under Bush, and then doubled again under Obama.  It definitely wasn't due to left leaning politicians, it was happening regardless.

From what I understand a lot of China's growth is kind of manufactured. It was going to happen because of China's influences, not America's.  

I think the big difference is that right wingers complain about China, while having absolutely no real solutions to fix any of it. And left leaning politicians try to make it less of a deal, because they probably don't have any real solutions in this particular case either.



Trump's co-conspirators be like



the-pi-guy said:

The rise of China based on what?

If we look at GDP, it basically tripled under Bush, and then doubled again under Obama.  It definitely wasn't due to left leaning politicians, it was happening regardless.

From what I understand a lot of China's growth is kind of manufactured. It was going to happen because of China's influences, not America's.  

I think the big difference is that right wingers complain about China, while having absolutely no real solutions to fix any of it. And left leaning politicians try to make it less of a deal, because they probably don't have any real solutions in this particular case either.

China's growth mostly comes from cheap labor attracting international companies in the nineties and noughties (and getting their hand on the tech of those companies). Since the financial crisis however Chinese labor has become too expensive compared to most southeast Asian countries, so foreign companies are slowly leaving China, leaving production more and more only to state-owned companies where pay is often below minimum wage and work on a 996 schedule. To continue boost GDP numbers, China has then embarked in massive construction projects like the three gorges dam, the high-speed rail network and stamping entire new cities of the ground, of which we see the consequences now.



the-pi-guy said:

The rise of China based on what?

If we look at GDP, it basically tripled under Bush, and then doubled again under Obama.  It definitely wasn't due to left leaning politicians, it was happening regardless.

From what I understand a lot of China's growth is kind of manufactured. It was going to happen because of China's influences, not America's.  

I think the big difference is that right wingers complain about China, while having absolutely no real solutions to fix any of it. And left leaning politicians try to make it less of a deal, because they probably don't have any real solutions in this particular case either.

If you ask me there is no solution for China because China has figured out a really basic concept about western society.  Give them cheap goods, sell below cost enough to drive out competition and then corner the market.  Its actually a very capitalist approach and as we have seen with Trumps tariffs, its very resilient against such tactics.  The reason why Trump failed is not because the ideal was flawed which is hit China with Tarriffs, it was the fact that he thought the US alone could reign in China and did not want to cooperate with other western counties.  He wanted all the credit which short sighted his attempt and failed.  If he had allied with all the western countries and they all hit China with big tarriffs against China tactics, this would have been a much bigger impact on China economy and they would have needed to come to the table and make huge concessions.  At least that is how I view the problem and solution to China in the marketplace today.



Bofferbrauer2 said:
the-pi-guy said:

The rise of China based on what?

If we look at GDP, it basically tripled under Bush, and then doubled again under Obama.  It definitely wasn't due to left leaning politicians, it was happening regardless.

From what I understand a lot of China's growth is kind of manufactured. It was going to happen because of China's influences, not America's.  

I think the big difference is that right wingers complain about China, while having absolutely no real solutions to fix any of it. And left leaning politicians try to make it less of a deal, because they probably don't have any real solutions in this particular case either.

China's growth mostly comes from cheap labor attracting international companies in the nineties and noughties (and getting their hand on the tech of those companies). Since the financial crisis however Chinese labor has become too expensive compared to most southeast Asian countries, so foreign companies are slowly leaving China, leaving production more and more only to state-owned companies where pay is often below minimum wage and work on a 996 schedule. To continue boost GDP numbers, China has then embarked in massive construction projects like the three gorges dam, the high-speed rail network and stamping entire new cities of the ground, of which we see the consequences now.

I would also say that China faces the same problem as India and of course what the US already gone through.  Once your society gets to a certain level, low wages for the work they do becomes an issue.  Being able to sustain a highly educated society with lower wages become more and more of an issue as these people start to demand higher wages.  As you stated, what then happens is those companies that relied on those workforce start to look at other countries that can supple the same type of low cost workers who can be trained to do the job at a lower cost.  Now Mexico, Africa and other such places start to look more attractive.