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Chrkeller said:

Modern games generally have 3 problems

1) too big. Quantity is not better than quality.

2) open world, a design that works for some games, but is being forced in too many games.  When forced the entire game is bland and generic.

3) too much narrative. I don't need constant stop in playing for worthless chatters. Too many developers think they are Shakespeare... they aren't.

Games in the 90s were better.  Focused, sharp, original and actually put gameplay first.  

Interesting, I like 3 points you listed in modern games 

1) Games are now bigger, I feel it's an actual good thing. In the 80s and the 90s I often feel some games were intentionally "cheap" in terms of difficulty, having poor quality of life choices because they needed kids to fail and lose time with activities that would otherwise make the games to end even faster. And if a game is good, I don't want it to end soon. I beat Resident 3 remake, a great game, but was appalled by how short it is, it took me like 6 hours to beat, pretty much a weekend. Of all games that had the same length I would need to play like... 70 games a year. I don't have money, nor interest in playing that much, I prefer to spend some time finding a game I like and then stick with it until I'm satisfied. In this sense, I really understand the appeal of GaS and online-focused games like LOL, Genshin Impact, Final Fantasy XIV, etc. You don't have a developer saying to you and/or forcing you to stop your enjoyment, you can enjoy the game for as long the servers are up and that's wonderful. 

2) I don't feel everything is open world nowadays, this is an overstatement but yes I agree open world is more common now among AAA developers and is this really what are making the games bland and generic? I like when games make me feel free in a sense I can experiment and explore and have a different experience every time I play, sometimes I like it more than focused and clear level design. Of course this is also a grey area, for instance, Mario Odyssey isn't open world, but the level design isn't tight, in a way I can explore the maps in whatever order I feel in the moody, the dozens of hidden stars make my experience playing it an experience of discovery and exploring similar to open-world. My sweet spot is Metroidvanias like Hollow Knight or Ori, those games are technically open world 2D, in HK after I got the Mantis Claw I feel the paths I could choose were drastically increased, I could go almost everywhere granted I couldn't explore 100% of every area until unlocking some abilities. 

3) I like narratives... for me they are immersive. That's what I've always liked in JRPGs, they were full of stories. One thing I liked on gaming is the fact I could feel I'm inserted in the role playing, imagining I'm part of the party. I often keep thinking about the story and characters long after I close the game, that's something that only happens if games have a story. Games that don't have a story are okay too, but I hardly keep as emotionally invested in them as games with a story, the exception being probably simulation games like Animal Crossing, although one can argue simulation is kinda making a story already. The odds of dropping the game with the best gameplayer EVER RELEASED are for me higher than a game I'm emotionally invested in, let's say Xenoblade. Never liked the combat system, but loved the story, so I keep playing until the story was complete. 

Now thinking I bit, it's very easy to understand many of my favorite games released in the last couple of years fall into those categories too:

Zelda? Horizon? Open World 

Sqplatoon, Animal Crossing, Civ 6, Stardew Valley, Paladins? Big games that don't force you to quit until you get burned out 

TLOU 2, Detroit, Persona 5, FF7 remake, Fire Emblem Three Houses? Story heavy 

The exception would be Soulslike games which aren't exactly old either

And Metroidvanias (Hollow Knight, Ori, Metroid Dread), which aren't like an open world, but I like them for about the same reasons I like open world 

I loved Hades and Deadcells, so maybe rogue-like is my next Metroidvania, those would be INDEED an exception (although I've liked Hades story), we shall see :p 

Last edited by IcaroRibeiro - on 10 July 2022

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The itch.io search options are also quite good...

The most important search filters on itch.io are tags, genre and average session length:

Of course you can bookmark your search settings for your next search or to send the URL to a friend: https://itch.io/games/duration-hours/genre-adventure/tag-point-and-click

By placing the mouse cursor over a game, an info box opens on the left. The quick summary, the trailer-URL (if available) and the two screenshots are helpful to check if you like the style of the game:

Now you can select the games you are interested in (I prefer the middle mouse button to open them in new browser tabs).

On these pages there are A LOT of additional informations for the selected games:

So there are lots of informations for almost any indie game out there, well structured on webpages like SteamDB, Steam and itch.io



IcaroRibeiro said:
Chrkeller said:

Modern games generally have 3 problems

1) too big. Quantity is not better than quality.

2) open world, a design that works for some games, but is being forced in too many games.  When forced the entire game is bland and generic.

3) too much narrative. I don't need constant stop in playing for worthless chatters. Too many developers think they are Shakespeare... they aren't.

Games in the 90s were better.  Focused, sharp, original and actually put gameplay first.  

Interesting, I like 3 points you listed in modern games 

1) Games are now bigger, I feel it's an actual good thing. In the 80s and the 90s I often feel some games were intentionally "cheap" in terms of difficulty, having poor quality of life choices because they needed kids to fail and lose time with activities that would otherwise make the games to end even faster. And if a game is good, I don't want it to end soon. I beat Resident 3 remake, a great game, but was appalled by how short it is, it took me like 6 hours to beat, pretty much a weekend. Of all games that had the same length I would need to play like... 70 games a year. I don't have money, nor interest in playing that much, I prefer to spend some time finding a game I like and then stick with it until I'm satisfied. In this sense, I really understand the appeal of GaS and online-focused games like LOL, Genshin Impact, Final Fantasy XIV, etc. You don't have a developer saying to you and/or forcing you to stop your enjoyment, you can enjoy the game for as long the servers are up and that's wonderful. 

2) I don't feel everything is open world nowadays, this is an overstatement but yes I agree open world is more common now among AAA developers and is this really what are making the games bland and generic? I like when games make me feel free in a sense I can experiment and explore and have a different experience every time I play, sometimes I like it more than focused and clear level design. Of course this is also a grey area, for instance, Mario Odyssey isn't open world, but the level design isn't tight, in a way I can explore the maps in whatever order I feel in the moody, the dozens of hidden stars make my experience playing it an experience of discovery and exploring similar to open-world. My sweet spot is Metroidvanias like Hollow Knight or Ori, those games are technically open world 2D, in HK after I got the Mantis Claw I feel the paths I could choose were drastically increased, I could go almost everywhere granted I couldn't explore 100% of every area until unlocking some abilities. 

3) I like narratives... for me they are immersive. That's what I've always liked in JRPGs, they were full of stories. One thing I liked on gaming is the fact I could feel I'm inserted in the role playing, imagining I'm part of the party. I often keep thinking about the story and characters long after I close the game, that's something that only happens if games have a story. Games that don't have a story are okay too, but I hardly keep as emotionally invested in them as games with a story, the exception being probably simulation games like Animal Crossing, although one can argue simulation is kinda making a story already. The odds of dropping the game with the best gameplayer EVER RELEASED are for me higher than a game I'm emotionally invested in, let's say Xenoblade. Never liked the combat system, but loved the story, so I keep playing until the story was complete. 

Now thinking I bit, it's very easy to understand many of my favorite games released in the last couple of years fall into those categories too:

Zelda? Horizon? Open World 

Sqplatoon, Animal Crossing, Civ 6, Stardew Valley, Paladins? Big games that don't force you to quit until you get burned out 

TLOU 2, Detroit, Persona 5, FF7 remake, Fire Emblem Three Houses? Story heavy 

The exception would be Soulslike games which aren't exactly old either

And Metroidvanias (Hollow Knight, Ori, Metroid Dread), which aren't like an open world, but I like them for about the same reasons I like open world 

I loved Hades and Deadcells, so maybe rogue-like is my next Metroidvania, those would be INDEED an exception (although I've liked Hades story), we shall see :p 

Hades and Souls are great examples (loved them both) of how to do a story correctly.  The player can decide how little or how much to learn about the world.  

I also prefer (just personally preference) how narratives are handled in Wind Waker and Ori.  Wind Waker uses simple animated facial expression to drive emotion.  While Ori uses musical score to perfection to translate emotion.  Both, for me, are better than a bunch of talking.  I don't mind story, I just want to see it driven by more than voice acting.



Conina said:
The_Liquid_Laser said:

The main problem with the indie scene is accessibility.  Most indie games do not have a physical version available.  However, what is worse is that there are really not great ways to find the good indie games.  There are too many, and it can take a while for the cream to rise to the top.  My favorite era for gaming was actually the late 80's (because I live in the US).  Not only was innovation at an all time high in this era, but we had a magazine called Nintendo Power.  This did a pretty good job of steering people toward the great games and away from the turds.  Indie games don't really have an equivalent of Nintendo Power today.  Most reviewers focus on big budget games and Metacritic scores of indie games often don't get enough reviews.  There are indie review sites out there, but I certainly haven't found one that is comprehensive and well organized.  Nintendo Indy Directs aren't really that great either.  When I look back and these Directs and compare them to the Indie games that people really enjoy, there isn't a large overlap.

Nintendo Power also focused on the big titles or preselected smaller titles.

My tip: use the SteamDB-search, even for Xbox-, PlayStation- and Switch-games... since almost all "commercial" indie games are also on Steam.
(itch.io has also a lot of free indie games that aren't on Steam, some of them very nice, but most of them only very short experiences.)

Now over 70,000 Steam games, almost 40,000 DLCs and some other stuff are listed, sorted by SteamDB-rating:

Now let's filter away for the content you are searching for. The most important filters if you are searching for new games are tags, type, SteamDB rating and release year.

But other filters can also help to find the games you want (f.e. if you want/need support of your native language, if you are on a budget or if you want a specific feature like "full controller support" or if you want to exclude VR games):

For example, I'm a huge fan of point&click adventures (my favorite niche genre) and I want a new good one of 2020 or newer.

So I set the type "game" (which excludes DLCs and other additional content like soundtracks), choose the tags "adventure" and "point & click" and the release years "2020", "2021" and "2022", SteamDB rating should be 70 or better:

This gives me 517 results with many games I already have or are alreeady on my wishlist.
To filter out these games, just check the boxes (the number of search results don't get adjusted by that)

Now I have the search results (of games I don't already have or wishlisted) neatly sorted by SteamDB rating. By placing the mouse cursor over the row of a game, an info box opens on the left. Especially the animated GIF is very helpful to check if you like the style of the game:

Of course you can bookmark your search settings for your next search or to send the URL to a friend: https://steamdb.info/instantsearch/?refinementList%5Btags%5D%5B0%5D=Point%20%26%20Click&refinementList%5Btags%5D%5B1%5D=Adventure&refinementList%5BappType%5D%5B0%5D=Game&refinementList%5BreleaseYear%5D%5B0%5D=2022&refinementList%5BreleaseYear%5D%5B1%5D=2021&refinementList%5BreleaseYear%5D%5B2%5D=2020&range%5BuserScore%5D=70%3A

Now you can select the games you are interested in (I prefer the middle mouse button to open them in new browser tabs).

On these pages there are A LOT of additional informations for the selected games, with the button "Store" you get to the Steam Store page and can check individual reeviews of the game:

On the Steam page of the selected game you have several options to filter reeviews for the most helpful one's:

The combination of the SteamDB-search and review filters is a mighty tool to find the games you want, much better for indie gamees than Nintendo Power ever was.

Thanks.  This is an improvement.  On the other hand it's still leaves a lot to be desired for what I want as a console user.  If I could sort out "non-Switch" and "physical copy available" then it would be ideal.  This is better than nothing though.



Conina said:

There are also FAR more people dead than living (over 100 billion people died, only ~8 billion are still living). That doesn't mean that now less people are living on earth than 20 / 50 / 100 / 200 / 500... years ago: https://www.prb.org/articles/how-many-people-have-ever-lived-on-earth/

Also your Wikipedia article seems to be focused on the defunct & bought up publishers. Lots of active publishers aren't listed.

Where are f.e. King Art, Phoenix Online Publishing, Wadjet Eye Games; Thunderful Publishing, Digerati, Nightdive Studios, TinyBuild, Wired Productions, The Irregular Corporation, Goblinz Publishing, Headup Games, WhisperGames...

https://kingart-games.com/games

http://www.postudios.com/company/projects.php

http://www.wadjeteyegames.com/games/

https://thunderfulgames.com/games/

https://digerati.games/games/

https://www.nightdivestudios.com/games

https://www.tinybuild.com/games

https://wiredproductions.com/games/

https://theirregularcorporation.com/games/

https://store.steampowered.com/publisher/goblinz_publishing

https://headupgames.com/

https://store.steampowered.com/publisher/WhisperGames

There are also wrong infos in that list.

F.e., Soedesco is marked "defunct / no longer active", but they are active: https://www.soedesco.com/news

Bold 1: That's an invalid analogy given the fact that I'm only looking at what has been available over the last 50 years and you are looking at the entire history of mankind. In addition, I'm looking at the number of publishers available in the 90's vs. now not simply stating there are more closed companies than open companies. 

Bold 2: No, it appears that way because of how many defunct publishers there are. You've listed some information that isn't there, that's true. However, there is also information that isn't there regarding defunct or consolidated publishers. For example, 1C Company isn't listed as a subsidiary despite being purchased by Tencent. 

So while the information I provided is not exhaustive, it does provide context to the amount of defunct and subsidized publishers in the gaming industry. If you'd prefer to ignore this, that's fine. However, the point remains that the amount of new publishers have been steadily decreasing from it's boom in the 80's and 90's while publishers are still either being taken over or becoming defunct. 



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Mnementh said:

The argument of getting lost in the releases is nothing new really and nothing limited to digital publishing. The more serious part is, that modern AAA games have millions in marketing budget to avoid exactly that fate, but it still happens. Remember Ubisofts Hyperscape? Yeah, that happens even with big budget and big marketing.

My argument is that the great games exist. Maybe you have to look for them and they aren't presented to you, but in comparison with the 90s - back then it was worse because games were so niche and hadn't really any outlet to present themself. You learned of them by friends or if you consumed niche media, like game magazines.

And yeah, the quality games exist as well.

I never said great games didn't exist or that there were no quality games. You said that there is more variety now than there ever was before, and I said that this could be argued. 



Ryuu96 said:

As others have said already, that list is incomplete, but also, I don't think it's accurate to combine blue and yellow together either. If your argument is that less publishers exist today, a lot of those blue (acquired) publishers still actually exist functionally as publishers and are still actively publishing games.

At the start of the list we have 2K Games listed in blue, they are still an active publisher. Alongside 2K, Take-Two formed another publishing house with Private Division (blue) with the specific purpose of publishing indies, EA has something similar. Then we have Embracer Group, sure, they have acquired a lot but Embracer is mostly a holding company, anything that was a publisher which they acquired is still a publisher, not much has changed.

THQ Nordic, Deep Silver, Saber Interactive, Gearbox Publishing, etc. Those all still exist as publishers and have active publisher projects, though it doesn't look like Saber Interactive is listed, Deep Silver is Blue, as is Gearbox, but THQ Nordic isn't listed in blue despite technically being a subsidiary. Deep Silver and Koch Media are listed separately but Koch Media always used Deep Silver to publish everything and that remains true today.

InXile is listed as a former publisher but I honestly can't remember them ever publishing anything, Modus Games is in blue but it's still listed as a "Indie Publishing Label" Hell even Sega is listed in blue because of the merger with Sammy, Lol. So looking at just the colours is an inaccurate measurement, a lot of the blue are still publishers.

I could go on but I'd be looking over that list all day, Lol, it looks outdated overall and even the stuff it has is misleading, alongside missing some things such as Curve Digital, Versus Evil, Playtonic Friends, Dangen, Annapurna, etc. Some new ones missing too like New Tales, a new publisher created in 2022, Tencent created a new publishing label in 2021 called Level Infinite, Koch Media created a new publishing division called Prime Matter, etc.

A publisher becoming a subsidiary of another publisher effectively makes it in control of one party. Since my argument is about risk and control from the perspective of publishers, it's fine to combine both. Subsidiary organizations aren't as diverse as separate organizations on average. 

But the list is clearly not exhaustive, but I have no way to actually do the leg work to provide an exhaustive list and I used what is the easiest method to provide context to my point. While there are publishers not on there that have formed, there are also those that are not on there that also have been defunct, and those who have consolidated that they haven't noted have consolidated. Therefore, it's unlikely to significantly change the context itself.



mZuzek said:
Chrkeller said:

Hades and Souls are great examples (loved them both) of how to do a story correctly.  The player can decide how little or how much to learn about the world.  

I also prefer (just personally preference) how narratives are handled in Wind Waker and Ori.  Wind Waker uses simple animated facial expression to drive emotion.  While Ori uses musical score to perfection to translate emotion.  Both, for me, are better than a bunch of talking.  I don't mind story, I just want to see it driven by more than voice acting.

And that's totally fine, for you. But complaining that the industry shouldn't be trying to make narrative driven games with voice acting because you don't like them, is selfish. It's not like there aren't any games telling stories in different ways, you just listed a few recent examples of games that did.

I mean, I'm with you on this too. I love Wind Waker and Hades. Both Ori games are among my all-time favorites and they both made me cry. But at the same time, I'm extremely grateful that there is a Guardians of the Galaxy game that has a great story, and it being told in a "movie-like" way is what works best for the IP.

I think the more ways in which games can tell stories, the better. Back in the 90's there were games similar in gameplay to the likes of Hades or Ori, but no way they'd have good stories. The games that had good stories were usually JRPGs or point-and-clicks, so gameplay and story were pretty much mutually exclusive. Nowadays games can tell good stories in many different ways and styles and in any genre, if you ask me we're much better off now.

When did I complain?  I simply stated my opinion.  



mZuzek said:
Chrkeller said:

When did I complain?  I simply stated my opinion.  

An opinion can be a form of complaint, but, I guess.

Just thought when you said games were trying too hard to be Shakespeare, and that they were better in the 90's, that sounded like a complain about the gaming industry of today. Which then felt a bit weird once you praised the approach to story-telling of several commercially successful games of the last couple years.

Oh I think some writers do try too hard, TLoU 2 jumps to mind.  Some stories are good, such as Uncharted 1-3.  Didn't like UC4 as much.  Writing from ND had gone down hill a bit, imo.

I do prefer 90s games, but today's games are still excellent.  My overall point was nothing more then sometimes facial expressions and music has more impact than babbling.  I wish media (not just games) would figure this out.

And for the record, I would never suggest a market needs to adjust to my needs.  Many people complain about Nintendo and their business practices, my take has always been 'maybe they aren't for you.'  I apply the same logic to my situation.  Developers aren't there to make me happy, so I would never expect the industry to change for me.  

My GotY is Triangle Strategy, but I will pick on it given it fits into this conversation quite well.  The game could EASILY cut 20% of the talking.  It adds nothing.  It would have been better with less talking and a few more battles added in.  

Another modern game I liked is God of War (ps4)...  lots of story driven during conversations while exploring.  The game doesn't stop with babbling for 10 minutes.  The game is superb.

Last edited by Chrkeller - on 11 July 2022

IcaroRibeiro said:
Bofferbrauer2 said:

And this is where you're wrong. They just gained much more prominence, but back then, there were also tons of indie developers. The reason the indies gained so much more prominence over the last 15 years is because they continued making games with genres/themes that the publishers didn't want to touch anymore as they got more and more risk-averse. But that doesn't mean they just emerged back then, what changed is their visibility.

Even if you're right, this shows how much better market is now. Before, indies needed physical distribution, the odds of them succeeding were close to noexistent. Getting global release? Forget it 

How many 90s indie games turned to be classics? I can't think any

Ever heard of shareware? This is how most Indies sold their games before the Internet allowed to do it completely without physical media. Another way was to develop your game and then mail it to potential publishers, though they risked having to sell the rights to the games when doing so. Finally, several indies simply went and self-published the games, which in the late 90's was relatively easy (They needed just a jewelcase CD in most cases).

As for 90's indies becoming classics, Doom, Wolfenstein, Commander Keen, (well pretty much everything from id software at the time became a hit despite technically being an indie developer until their acquisition by Zenimax in 2009), One Must Fall, The Exile/Avernum series (Avernum was originally just an extended remake of Exile), Constructor/Mob Rule, ADOM, Nethack...