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Forums - Nintendo Discussion - Metriod Dread Announced for Switch, Launches October 8th

heavenmercenary01 said:
curl-6 said:

I am curious how this will sell; on the one hand Metroid is a pretty niche series with a history of low sales, but on the other it seems just about every first party game on Switch breaks franchise records. Honestly, I'd consider anything over 2 million a success for a Metroid title.

I am having the same concerns as you. Metroid didn't sell well even on popular devices such as DS and Wii. We can argue about the fact that switch is the system that managed to get together casual and hardcore gamers, so the game won't have the same issues with the fanbase as Prime3 did on the Wii or Hunters on the DS.
However, there's a double edged weapon over there which is the attraction towards Metroidvanias' that was generated by Hollow Knight. We might think that there's a BIG new consumer installbase of new comers to the genre to welcome Metroid DREAD. But THERE is where the problem lies. Hollow knight has become THE reference when talking about metroidvanias nowadays. It revived the genre and the most important thing about it all, is that it has a price tag nearing the 15€.

People will compare Dread to hollow knight and Ori no matter what, they'll see both more appealing, challenging and more importantly,CHEAPER than Dread, and then will refrain from buying it.
I am already sure that the sales won't be high just for those arguments that I listed.
Major buyers will be old fans of the series and it will be expected to hit the 2 Millions as a maximum.

In the other hand, i have no fears for Metroid Prime 4 to sell extremely well.There's hype behind it, people ask and love shooters, people love 3D games with vast environment. Hitting the old Zelda's milestone of 7Million copies will depend on how good the game will look.

 +Deadcells, and yes, they are cheaper. It's hard to argue that you like Metroidvanias you can enjoy a tons of cheaper (and good) options in the market 

I guess people aren't aware the force of Nintendo IPs is they are unique, or just much better than other options in the market. Even for Prime, I'm not sure if it's the case of breaking boundaries. Shooters is one of the most overused genres in other systems, so maybe it's hard to convince FPS fans to give a chance for a franchise they never played 



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Vodacixi said:

The original Metroid has a certain charm. It's the most open game in the entire franchise, allowing you go to anywhere you want and skip almost every power up. However, it's an absolute nightmare to play unless you are really into old clunky games. No diagonal or down aiming, no crouching, enemies can hit you even if you are going through a door, password saving, tons of clonic rooms with no other purpouse than to confuse you, no map, no way to refill your HP and ammo other than the painfully slow method of killing infinite enemies that come off pipes...

Honestly, I cannot comprehend how someone could say that METROID (NES) is better than Super Metroid. Other than being an interesting experience for a fan of the series that started the franchise with newer games or a nostalgia trip for those who played it on its time... it's not a very good game at all. Even by NES standards.

I agree with you that Super Metroid is better in the following ways: Diagonal/down aiming, no enemies hitting you in doors, no passwords.  It also has better graphics.  However, I consider all of these things to be small improvements.  None of those aspects make or break the game for me.  There are things that are much more important when it comes to making a good game.

These are the 3 big things that really matter for every game: 1) Freedom, 2) Challenge, and 3) Content (i.e. what the game is about, and the stuff that it has).  Minecraft is a very basic game made by essentially one person and yet it is the best selling game of the 21st century, because it gives people people a whole lot of options about how they want to play (freedom), there is plenty of stuff that can kill you (challenge) and it is in a huge world with lots of different things in it (lots of content).  These are the things that actually make a game fun (and also the type of content which is determined by a person's tastes).

So, the reasons why I like the first Metroid more is 1) it's less linear and there is less gatekeeping (more freedom).  There are a few powerups in there that you don't even need to beat the game.  2) It's more challenging.  I have died a whole lot in Metroid 1.  I'm not sure if I ever died in Super Metroid.  Instead I played for several hours and then gave up out of boredom.  3) Metroid 1 feels more like a horror game in space to me.  That is what I think the game is about (content).  A large part of that has to do with the challenge.  I think effective horror games kill you a lot.  I also like horror games that unsettle you a lot (in a kind of Hitchcockian way).  The lack of a map is a plus.  The cloning rooms that confuse you are a plus.  Slowly running out of ammo and health is a plus.  (Metroid 1 probably could have 1 refilling station somewhere, but Super Metroid has far too many.)  All of this stuff makes me feel the pressure and puts me on edge.  It's disorienting and alienating in a good way.

Metroid 1 is a hardcore game by NES standards.  That was the NES version of Dark Souls.  It's hard.  You will die a lot, and it doesn't hold your hand.  I personally like all of that.  If you take Dark Souls and make it easier, then it really isn't Dark Souls anymore.  That is what they did to the Metroid series.  It doesn't feel like Metroid anymore.  Super Metroid feels like a watered down and casualized version of the original game.



Spindel said:

Nothing with this feels clunky to me. Want to talk about clunky feeling games, play the NES Castlevania where once you hit jump you can do nothing to change your trajectory.

Funny enough Castlevania 1 is my favorite NES game, whereas Metroid 1 is my least favorite at least among those I've completed. They're both clunky, I suppose, but Castlevania's clunkiness feels like it's there very much by design, while Metroid's really feels like a limitation. So much so, that as these series progressed, Metroid got tons of new movement and aiming options (as early as in the next game), whereas Castlevania has generally remained slow-paced and clunky.




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IcaroRibeiro said:
Metallox said:

I think it is entirely possible to make side-scrollers 

It's not. Side strollers doesn't have the same perceiving value of 3D games. Pokemon and Mario sells based on their branding mostly, when you get that you are buying to yourself a luxury product almost. Plus they are know mostly for their 2D games, it's like 2D is part of identity of both franchises so consumers feel ok paying them because it's just how the things are

Minor franchises and new entries does not enjoy such status, a 60 USD price will for sure affect potential here. 

I'm sorry, but just because they don't have it right now, doesn't mean they can't acquire it. It's as simple as that. 



My bet with The_Liquid_Laser: I think the Switch won't surpass the PS2 as the best selling system of all time. If it does, I'll play a game of a list that The_Liquid_Laser will provide, I will have to play it for 50 hours or complete it, whatever comes first. 

The_Liquid_Laser said:

These are the 3 big things that really matter for every game: 1) Freedom, 2) Challenge, and 3) Content (i.e. what the game is about, and the stuff that it has).  Minecraft is a very basic game made by essentially one person and yet it is the best selling game of the 21st century, because it gives people people a whole lot of options about how they want to play (freedom), there is plenty of stuff that can kill you (challenge) and it is in a huge world with lots of different things in it (lots of content).  These are the things that actually make a game fun (and also the type of content which is determined by a person's tastes).

So, the reasons why I like the first Metroid more is 1) it's less linear and there is less gatekeeping (more freedom).  There are a few powerups in there that you don't even need to beat the game.  2) It's more challenging.  I have died a whole lot in Metroid 1.  I'm not sure if I ever died in Super Metroid.  Instead I played for several hours and then gave up out of boredom.  3) Metroid 1 feels more like a horror game in space to me.  That is what I think the game is about (content).  A large part of that has to do with the challenge.  I think effective horror games kill you a lot.  I also like horror games that unsettle you a lot (in a kind of Hitchcockian way).  The lack of a map is a plus.  The cloning rooms that confuse you are a plus.  Slowly running out of ammo and health is a plus.  (Metroid 1 probably could have 1 refilling station somewhere, but Super Metroid has far too many.)  All of this stuff makes me feel the pressure and puts me on edge.  It's disorienting and alienating in a good way.

Metroid 1 is a hardcore game by NES standards.  That was the NES version of Dark Souls.  It's hard.  You will die a lot, and it doesn't hold your hand.  I personally like all of that.  If you take Dark Souls and make it easier, then it really isn't Dark Souls anymore.  That is what they did to the Metroid series.  It doesn't feel like Metroid anymore.  Super Metroid feels like a watered down and casualized version of the original game.

Great way to start your point. "Here are the three things that matter in games, as proven by these sales numbers". As if implying that those criteria is used by everyone. Speak for yourself.

Anyways.

1. It's nice that Metroid 1 gives players a lot of freedom, but when that freedom consists only of going through a dozen rooms that look the exact same and unable to find anything because the only way forward is one hidden bombable passage in one of the copy-pasted rooms, it feels more limiting than anything. "There are a few power-ups in there that you don't even need to beat the game" is cool, and exists in most Metroid games, but the way it's done in Metroid 1 is also really poor - the most notable example being the Wave Beam, an "upgrade" which removes your Ice Beam, which itself is crucial for all the boss battles and for killing Metroids at the end of the game. In order to get the Ice Beam back, you have to go all the way back to the place you first acquired it, which already was quite hidden. Getting an upgrade should be a good thing, instead finding the Wave Beam in Metroid 1 only gives you problems.

2. Challenge is cool, but it's a lot less cool when your game is filled with cheap stuff such as, but not limited to: pits of lava that you can't get out of once you fall inside (also one of these pits is actually fake and going through it is mandatory haha); enemies hit you during a door animation you can't do anything in, including one such enemy in the final area which always hits you there; bosses throw loads of hitboxes out at once and you have no i-frames upon getting hit, meaning you might take a shitton of damage for what looked like only one hit; dying respawns you super far away from where you were, and always with 30 energy, meaning if you want to have any chance at surviving, you're gonna have to spend the next 15 minutes grinding for energy. Fun.

3. Personally I think the horror in Metroid 1 is a lot worse than it is at most later games. The atmosphere is much weaker, not in the least part because the game starts with *generic catchy videogame song*, but also because there are no backgrounds, there is no sense of place (especially with everything being copy-paste rooms), there is nothing foreshadowed and thus nothing to be afraid of. The only place in the game that feels truly dangerous is Tourian, everything else before that is completely unthreatening, even the two main bosses. Yeah you die a lot, but the whole cheapness and clunkiness of everything makes you always feel like your deaths are because the game sucks rather than because there were frightening enemies or whatever. The enemies in the game are annoying at worst, but really most of them just look, sound, and move pathetically. They only pose a challenge because Samus is also pathetic in this game, and incapable of performing basic human motions such as crouching and turning your arms.

I do agree with you that challenge is important for good horror in a videogame, but if challenge is the only thing you have going for it, and it's cheap kind of challenge, then it's not good enough. I do suppose Metroid 1 has a really strong atmosphere when compared to other games of its era, but when compared to Super Metroid and beyond, not even close. Super Metroid starts off by throwing me into a space station that's been attacked by an unknown enemy, when you get there you see everyone dead and the Metroid from the prologue gone. Then we see Ridley is the cause, and have to fight him but we're no match for him. Then we descend into Zebes knowing that we'll have to face him, and start going into the caverns under the storm, everything is dark and feels dead up until the point you get the Morph Ball, and then everything lights up, you have cameras looking at you, you feel like you're being watched and it's because you are. Suddenly, the space pirates are everywhere. That is some great build-up, the tension is palpable, and there are lots of moments like that throughout the game. Again, I agree it would be more impactful if the game had more challenge, and this is why Fusion has the best horror in the series. But it's already leagues ahead of whatever Metroid 1 was trying to do.

Also, lol at "the entirety of the Metroid franchise does not feel like Metroid anymore". Come on dude.




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mZuzek said:
Spindel said:

Nothing with this feels clunky to me. Want to talk about clunky feeling games, play the NES Castlevania where once you hit jump you can do nothing to change your trajectory.

Funny enough Castlevania 1 is my favorite NES game, whereas Metroid 1 is my least favorite at least among those I've completed. They're both clunky, I suppose, but Castlevania's clunkiness feels like it's there very much by design, while Metroid's really feels like a limitation. So much so, that as these series progressed, Metroid got tons of new movement and aiming options (as early as in the next game), whereas Castlevania has generally remained slow-paced and clunky.

Don’t get me wrong, I like all the Castlevania games on NES (and Castlevania in general), with Simons Quest being my favourite (maybe see a pattern in my taste since SQ is more like original metroid than later metroidvania games ;) ). But the controls are inherently flawed an clunky. 

Still great games tho. 



Spindel said:
mZuzek said:

Funny enough Castlevania 1 is my favorite NES game, whereas Metroid 1 is my least favorite at least among those I've completed. They're both clunky, I suppose, but Castlevania's clunkiness feels like it's there very much by design, while Metroid's really feels like a limitation. So much so, that as these series progressed, Metroid got tons of new movement and aiming options (as early as in the next game), whereas Castlevania has generally remained slow-paced and clunky.

Don’t get me wrong, I like all the Castlevania games on NES (and Castlevania in general), with Simons Quest being my favourite

oof




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*trailer starts* Nothing out of the ordinary so far. *E.M.M.I. appears*

RUN!!!!! FUCKING RUN!!!!!



mZuzek said:
The_Liquid_Laser said:

These are the 3 big things that really matter for every game: 1) Freedom, 2) Challenge, and 3) Content (i.e. what the game is about, and the stuff that it has).  Minecraft is a very basic game made by essentially one person and yet it is the best selling game of the 21st century, because it gives people people a whole lot of options about how they want to play (freedom), there is plenty of stuff that can kill you (challenge) and it is in a huge world with lots of different things in it (lots of content).  These are the things that actually make a game fun (and also the type of content which is determined by a person's tastes).

So, the reasons why I like the first Metroid more is 1) it's less linear and there is less gatekeeping (more freedom).  There are a few powerups in there that you don't even need to beat the game.  2) It's more challenging.  I have died a whole lot in Metroid 1.  I'm not sure if I ever died in Super Metroid.  Instead I played for several hours and then gave up out of boredom.  3) Metroid 1 feels more like a horror game in space to me.  That is what I think the game is about (content).  A large part of that has to do with the challenge.  I think effective horror games kill you a lot.  I also like horror games that unsettle you a lot (in a kind of Hitchcockian way).  The lack of a map is a plus.  The cloning rooms that confuse you are a plus.  Slowly running out of ammo and health is a plus.  (Metroid 1 probably could have 1 refilling station somewhere, but Super Metroid has far too many.)  All of this stuff makes me feel the pressure and puts me on edge.  It's disorienting and alienating in a good way.

Metroid 1 is a hardcore game by NES standards.  That was the NES version of Dark Souls.  It's hard.  You will die a lot, and it doesn't hold your hand.  I personally like all of that.  If you take Dark Souls and make it easier, then it really isn't Dark Souls anymore.  That is what they did to the Metroid series.  It doesn't feel like Metroid anymore.  Super Metroid feels like a watered down and casualized version of the original game.

Great way to start your point. "Here are the three things that matter in games, as proven by these sales numbers". As if implying that those criteria is used by everyone. Speak for yourself.

Anyways.

1. It's nice that Metroid 1 gives players a lot of freedom, but when that freedom consists only of going through a dozen rooms that look the exact same and unable to find anything because the only way forward is one hidden bombable passage in one of the copy-pasted rooms, it feels more limiting than anything. "There are a few power-ups in there that you don't even need to beat the game" is cool, and exists in most Metroid games, but the way it's done in Metroid 1 is also really poor - the most notable example being the Wave Beam, an "upgrade" which removes your Ice Beam, which itself is crucial for all the boss battles and for killing Metroids at the end of the game. In order to get the Ice Beam back, you have to go all the way back to the place you first acquired it, which already was quite hidden. Getting an upgrade should be a good thing, instead finding the Wave Beam in Metroid 1 only gives you problems.

2. Challenge is cool, but it's a lot less cool when your game is filled with cheap stuff such as, but not limited to: pits of lava that you can't get out of once you fall inside (also one of these pits is actually fake and going through it is mandatory haha); enemies hit you during a door animation you can't do anything in, including one such enemy in the final area which always hits you there; bosses throw loads of hitboxes out at once and you have no i-frames upon getting hit, meaning you might take a shitton of damage for what looked like only one hit; dying respawns you super far away from where you were, and always with 30 energy, meaning if you want to have any chance at surviving, you're gonna have to spend the next 15 minutes grinding for energy. Fun.

3. Personally I think the horror in Metroid 1 is a lot worse than it is at most later games. The atmosphere is much weaker, not in the least part because the game starts with *generic catchy videogame song*, but also because there are no backgrounds, there is no sense of place (especially with everything being copy-paste rooms), there is nothing foreshadowed and thus nothing to be afraid of. The only place in the game that feels truly dangerous is Tourian, everything else before that is completely unthreatening, even the two main bosses. Yeah you die a lot, but the whole cheapness and clunkiness of everything makes you always feel like your deaths are because the game sucks rather than because there were frightening enemies or whatever. The enemies in the game are annoying at worst, but really most of them just look, sound, and move pathetically. They only pose a challenge because Samus is also pathetic in this game, and incapable of performing basic human motions such as crouching and turning your arms.

I do agree with you that challenge is important for good horror in a videogame, but if challenge is the only thing you have going for it, and it's cheap kind of challenge, then it's not good enough. I do suppose Metroid 1 has a really strong atmosphere when compared to other games of its era, but when compared to Super Metroid and beyond, not even close. Super Metroid starts off by throwing me into a space station that's been attacked by an unknown enemy, when you get there you see everyone dead and the Metroid from the prologue gone. Then we see Ridley is the cause, and have to fight him but we're no match for him. Then we descend into Zebes knowing that we'll have to face him, and start going into the caverns under the storm, everything is dark and feels dead up until the point you get the Morph Ball, and then everything lights up, you have cameras looking at you, you feel like you're being watched and it's because you are. Suddenly, the space pirates are everywhere. That is some great build-up, the tension is palpable, and there are lots of moments like that throughout the game. Again, I agree it would be more impactful if the game had more challenge, and this is why Fusion has the best horror in the series. But it's already leagues ahead of whatever Metroid 1 was trying to do.

Also, lol at "the entirety of the Metroid franchise does not feel like Metroid anymore". Come on dude.

I... don't think I need to answer anymore. You pretty much said it all xD



Vodacixi said:

The original Metroid has a certain charm. It's the most open game in the entire franchise, allowing you go to anywhere you want and skip almost every power up. However, it's an absolute nightmare to play unless you are really into old clunky games. No diagonal or down aiming, no crouching, enemies can hit you even if you are going through a door, password saving, tons of clonic rooms with no other purpouse than to confuse you, no map, no way to refill your HP and ammo other than the painfully slow method of killing infinite enemies that come off pipes...

Honestly, I cannot comprehend how someone could say that METROID (NES) is better than Super Metroid. Other than being an interesting experience for a fan of the series that started the franchise with newer games or a nostalgia trip for those who played it on its time... it's not a very good game at all. Even by NES standards.

I'm glad someone said it so I didn't have to.  I love the Metroid franchise.  Four Metroid games make it into my Top 50, and two into my Top 10 for the end of the year event we do here.  I was born in 1985 and have played plenty of old games.  Even with all that, I will say this: The original NES version of Metroid is near unplayable by modern standards.  Super Metroid outclasses it by far.  It feels so much better to play Super.  Light-years ahead.



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