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Forums - Politics Discussion - The Israeli-Palestinian Crisis in mainstream media is getting exposure as ethnic cleansing

Eagle367 said:
Dulfite said:

Just for context, before I address your above statements, let's look at the history of Israel/Judah/The Jews in a simplified way:

They established their kingdom and were pretty powerful at first around 1,000 B.C. Then the Assyrians came and wiped a them out. Then the Babylonians came, destroyed their holy temple, and killed many Jews and forced many others to move to Babylon for forced assimilation. Multiple rounds of reconquering, re-killing, and forced re-assimilation occurred with the Babylonians and other nearby people groups. Over the coming centuries, the land was conquered and the people continued being repressed by other people groups such as the Persians, Greeks, Romans, Arabs, Fatimids, Seljuk Turks, Catholic Crusaders, Egyptians, Mamelukes, Islamists, and more. Jump forward to 1517 and lasting until roughly 1917 they were conquered and ruled by the Ottoman Empire. At this point, Israel had been conquered, their population either killed off or forced into moving by at least 13 major people groups. This number does not include smaller groups, repeat offenders (Hello Babylonians!), or ones that weren't officially recorded in history (if there are any). The VAST majority of history for the Jews up to this point in 1917 had been living under another culture's rule in conditions none of us would want to live in. In 1922 the Balfour Declaration was approved by the League of Nations to restore Jews to their natural and historic homeland dating back thousands of years before they were uprooted and persecuted over, and over again by numerous nations. As Hitler's Nazis eventually started the mass persecution of Jews, the Jews began to flee towards their holy land even more. Israel becomes its own free nation in May 1948 after WW II ends. Immediately after getting it's own nation, Egypt, Jordan, Iraq, Syria, and Lebanon started the war and invaded the region to restore Muslim control. Cease-fire was reached in 1949 with some territory swapping. In 1956 Egypt took complete control over the Suez canal, followed by Israel defeating them in a short conflict aided by British/French forces and capturing the canal. In 1967 Israel retook territory they lost after the Suez Crisis, (and then some) the Gaza Strip, Sinai Peninsula, the West Bank, and Golan Heights in a surprise attack in a 6 day conflict. In 1973, during the religious day of Yom Kippur, Egypt and Syria launched air strikes on Israel to try to retake Golan Heights, but after two weeks the fight ended and nothing changed. In 1982 Israel invaded Lebanon to eject the Palestine Liberation Organization, which was undermining their authority in Israel. In 1987 Palestinians led an uprising in Gaza and West Bank. Hundreds of people died until the Oslo Peace Accords were struck. In 1997 the Israeli army withdrew from parts of the West Bank. In 2000 Palestinians launched suicide bombs and attacks on Israel. Fighting lasted for years until Israel announced troop withdrawal from the Gaza strip in 2005. In 2006 Israel declared war and fought Hezbollah, a militant group, but this only lasted a couple of months. In 2008, 2012, and 2014 Israel and Hamas (another militant group) had major conflicts. Now to your statements:

1. Israel has been giving up their homes and dealing with forced migration for literally thousands of years. Obviously Israel isn't perfect in how they have handled things, but anyone persecuted THAT much is going to be extremely defensive about whatever territory they have or historically had in the past.

2. I have no opinion on the court cases other than the fact that the entire world has sham court cases happening all the time. That isn't even close to a unique to Israel problem.

3. Regarding this modern conflict, the timeline is as follows, according to what I have found, regarding acts of violence:

May 3rd - Clashes around Sheikh Jarrah neighborhood sparked by Jewish settlers multi-year long attempt to take over Arab homes.

May 7th - More clashes break out as tens of thousands of Muslims decide to pack and pray in the Temple Mount (or Al-Aqsa Mosque as Muslims call it) on the last day of Ramadan. Israeli police claim Palestinians hurled stones, bottles, and fireworks at them, which caused them to respond with rubber coated bullets and tear gas (which are a lot less deadly than stones, bottles, and fireworks). Video footage shows Israeli forces storming the plaza and firing sound grenades inside the building (again, not a lethal arm).

May 8th and 9th - More clashes in East Jerusalem.

May 10th - Hundreds of Palestinians and 32 Israeli police officers are wounded in clashes on Israel's national holiday (Jerusalem Day).

------------------------ (So far, up to this point, no one has been killed by anything at least in the timelines I found online.)

May 10th evening - Hamas launches volley of rockets towards Israel (the first intentionally lethal move). Israel responds with deadly counterstrikes.

May 11th - Hamas fires rockets down on Tel Aviv after Israel destroyed a Gaza city tower that was housing Hamas leadership.

May 15th - Israel target air strike kills 10 members of a specific family. Israel then blows up another building where Hamas leadership is located (Hamas decided to occupy a media building either in the hopes that Israel wouldn't attack them for fear or blowing up reporters or with the hope that they would so Hamas could look like the victim).

May 16th - Israel blew up the home of Hamas' political leader in Gaza.

Hamas has launched over 3,000 rockets (many of which misfired and accidentally landed in Muslim areas and hurt/killed their own people). Most of the rockets coming from Israel have been to simply intercept and destroy Hamas rockets as part of their Iron Dome defense system. If anyone responded disproportionally, it was Hamas, at least so far (May 17th).

I'll stop you right there, there is no proof given by Israel that Hamas was in any of the buildings it destroyed. And sorry but Israel has responded disproportionately as it has killed more than 140 palestenians including 39 children. More palestenians are hurt and injured and more have died, and most of them have nothing to do with Hamas. Israel has destroyed the only clinic that was testing for covid and has destroyed the building that houses many media HQ and even US's Blinken has said that there is no proof there was any Hamas there.

Also remember the ones whose home that land is are the palestenians. The palestenians included Jews, Christians and Muslims and all of them are natives and the sons and daughters of the natives of the land. The Palestenian Jews joined Israel and the rest of the Jews came from all over the world hence not native. Israel is the occupier and has all the power and has the power to stop this violence. Israel attacked worshippers at Al-Aqsa mosque, the worshippers didn't attack anyone first. The protestors were outside and they are separate. The palestenians that are being thrown out of Sheikh Jarrah have lived there for decades. It's not an eviction as it is an expulsion from their own homes. And do you know tear gas is prohibited in war yet somehow is used by police to quell protestors around the world. Did you also know Israel used skunk bombs which emit horrible smells and makes it difficult to breathe. And did you also know that rubber coated steel bullets still hurt like hell and can permanently injure you like cause blindness. And Israeli police attacked protestors first in response to which they threw the rocks. You have it flipped. 

Finally this conflict started in 1948. Ancient history is irrelevant because a lot of wars and displacements have happened and they were wrong but they have been over for hundreds of not thousands of years. At this present moment, it's happening to palestenians, not Israelis and that is the truth. This ain't a conflict nor a war, it's a one sided brutalization by an occupying apartheid regime lead by an ethno-supremacist corrupt leader. What Hamas does is wrong but Hamas has ko power. Israel has ALL the power and it can stop the violence when it wants and it can do basically anything it wants with impunity in the region. Israel could;be went into Gaza and stormed into capture Hamas operatives if it actually wanted to minimize civilian casualty. Israel by international law is committing war crimes that have killed a lot of innocent human beings. If that is not disproportionate, I don't know what is.

1. The information I typed above is almost exclusively information I found online and not my opinion. Some opinions are thrown in, sure, but most of it was typed in an effort to simply find and share information found.

2. I understand more Palestinians have died than Israeli's, but how do we know which side did more of the killing? Hamas had over 300 (and counting) missiles accidentally land in Palestinian districts. Regardless, it is tragic.

3. If President Biden truly thought there was no proof Hamas was in the building, do you really think he would be bucking his own political party by declaring Israel had and continues to have a right to defend itself? Apparently Israel showed the President clear evidence they were in the building. This isn't a Republican/pro-Israel president. This is a president absolutely pushed by the left to hate Israel and yet, somehow, he concluded they were in the right (which is a pretty good indication the evidence was overwhelming). The only other alternative is that President Biden incompetently handled the situation. So either Biden is incompetent or he received overwhelming evidence that Hamas was in the media building using it as a shield. As to which one it is, none of us will probably ever know as that will be classified I assume?

4. Those non-native Palestinian Jews absolutely were natives of the land centuries ago before being forced to migrate due to persecution. And they continued to experience persecution wherever they went and still to this day do. They have not once in thousands of years (since the Babylonian captivity) experienced a time where they had land of their own that they weren't being forced out of or persecuted in. Disregarding what they have been through will only lead to a lack of empathy and understanding. No people group on this planet has been through as many hardships for as long lasting as the Jews have.

5. It is sad that those people are being forced out of their homes for decades. But it is also said Israeli's were forced out of their homes for thousands of years.

6. I don't know the context of how tear gas and rubber bullets were used or when. I only have what the internet tells me, because I wasn't there. All I know is they absolutely used less lethal methods than they could have. I'm not saying what they did was right, I'm just saying it could have been considerably worse if they wanted.

7. Hamas has no power? Hamas has a lot of power. They know the entire world is watching. They also know countries like Iran are just itching to finally have the justification to try to wipe out Israel. Hamas knows if they can start something, then play the victim while Israel does more and more, that they could finally achieve their long term goal.

8. Why would Israel send actual physical troops in to capture/kill Hamas leaders? Militant/terrorists groups are known for blowing themselves up, along with other innocent bystanders, even using detonators attached to children, to get their way. Then they celebrate these murders by calling them martyrs and act like they did nothing wrong. Why would Israel want to jeopardize the lives of not only their soldiers, but of Palestinian civilizations by sending troops in? Yes, Palestinian civilizations died in this and that is tragic, but a lot more would have died had they done a infantry invasion into that building.

9. Those ancient miseries have never been over for the Jews. They know their history. They know for thousands of years all it takes is one strong group and boom, they are displaced or treated like slaves. For thousands of years they have lived like that, and you say "history is irrelevant"? If that is truly your perspective, I'm not sure responding back and forth will be worth it because that is an extremely narrow squinting of the eyes when looking at history.



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Dulfite said:
Eagle367 said:

I'll stop you right there, there is no proof given by Israel that Hamas was in any of the buildings it destroyed. And sorry but Israel has responded disproportionately as it has killed more than 140 palestenians including 39 children. More palestenians are hurt and injured and more have died, and most of them have nothing to do with Hamas. Israel has destroyed the only clinic that was testing for covid and has destroyed the building that houses many media HQ and even US's Blinken has said that there is no proof there was any Hamas there.

Also remember the ones whose home that land is are the palestenians. The palestenians included Jews, Christians and Muslims and all of them are natives and the sons and daughters of the natives of the land. The Palestenian Jews joined Israel and the rest of the Jews came from all over the world hence not native. Israel is the occupier and has all the power and has the power to stop this violence. Israel attacked worshippers at Al-Aqsa mosque, the worshippers didn't attack anyone first. The protestors were outside and they are separate. The palestenians that are being thrown out of Sheikh Jarrah have lived there for decades. It's not an eviction as it is an expulsion from their own homes. And do you know tear gas is prohibited in war yet somehow is used by police to quell protestors around the world. Did you also know Israel used skunk bombs which emit horrible smells and makes it difficult to breathe. And did you also know that rubber coated steel bullets still hurt like hell and can permanently injure you like cause blindness. And Israeli police attacked protestors first in response to which they threw the rocks. You have it flipped. 

Finally this conflict started in 1948. Ancient history is irrelevant because a lot of wars and displacements have happened and they were wrong but they have been over for hundreds of not thousands of years. At this present moment, it's happening to palestenians, not Israelis and that is the truth. This ain't a conflict nor a war, it's a one sided brutalization by an occupying apartheid regime lead by an ethno-supremacist corrupt leader. What Hamas does is wrong but Hamas has ko power. Israel has ALL the power and it can stop the violence when it wants and it can do basically anything it wants with impunity in the region. Israel could;be went into Gaza and stormed into capture Hamas operatives if it actually wanted to minimize civilian casualty. Israel by international law is committing war crimes that have killed a lot of innocent human beings. If that is not disproportionate, I don't know what is.

1. The information I typed above is almost exclusively information I found online and not my opinion. Some opinions are thrown in, sure, but most of it was typed in an effort to simply find and share information found.

2. I understand more Palestinians have died than Israeli's, but how do we know which side did more of the killing? Hamas had over 300 (and counting) missiles accidentally land in Palestinian districts. Regardless, it is tragic.

3. If President Biden truly thought there was no proof Hamas was in the building, do you really think he would be bucking his own political party by declaring Israel had and continues to have a right to defend itself? Apparently Israel showed the President clear evidence they were in the building. This isn't a Republican/pro-Israel president. This is a president absolutely pushed by the left to hate Israel and yet, somehow, he concluded they were in the right (which is a pretty good indication the evidence was overwhelming). The only other alternative is that President Biden incompetently handled the situation. So either Biden is incompetent or he received overwhelming evidence that Hamas was in the media building using it as a shield. As to which one it is, none of us will probably ever know as that will be classified I assume?

4. Those non-native Palestinian Jews absolutely were natives of the land centuries ago before being forced to migrate due to persecution. And they continued to experience persecution wherever they went and still to this day do. They have not once in thousands of years (since the Babylonian captivity) experienced a time where they had land of their own that they weren't being forced out of or persecuted in. Disregarding what they have been through will only lead to a lack of empathy and understanding. No people group on this planet has been through as many hardships for as long lasting as the Jews have.

5. It is sad that those people are being forced out of their homes for decades. But it is also said Israeli's were forced out of their homes for thousands of years.

6. I don't know the context of how tear gas and rubber bullets were used or when. I only have what the internet tells me, because I wasn't there. All I know is they absolutely used less lethal methods than they could have. I'm not saying what they did was right, I'm just saying it could have been considerably worse if they wanted.

7. Hamas has no power? Hamas has a lot of power. They know the entire world is watching. They also know countries like Iran are just itching to finally have the justification to try to wipe out Israel. Hamas knows if they can start something, then play the victim while Israel does more and more, that they could finally achieve their long term goal.

8. Why would Israel send actual physical troops in to capture/kill Hamas leaders? Militant/terrorists groups are known for blowing themselves up, along with other innocent bystanders, even using detonators attached to children, to get their way. Then they celebrate these murders by calling them martyrs and act like they did nothing wrong. Why would Israel want to jeopardize the lives of not only their soldiers, but of Palestinian civilizations by sending troops in? Yes, Palestinian civilizations died in this and that is tragic, but a lot more would have died had they done a infantry invasion into that building.

9. Those ancient miseries have never been over for the Jews. They know their history. They know for thousands of years all it takes is one strong group and boom, they are displaced or treated like slaves. For thousands of years they have lived like that, and you say "history is irrelevant"? If that is truly your perspective, I'm not sure responding back and forth will be worth it because that is an extremely narrow squinting of the eyes when looking at history.

Let's make a few things clear. We 100% know Israel has done more of the killing. The people that monitor how many have died also document how they died. Also you can't absolve yourself of blame by saying you found it online. You chose to carry the info forward so you have blame for that. 

I never said history is irrelevant, I said the specific history you are talking about is not relevant to the current issue. The issue of thousands of years is not relevant to the history since 1948. Also you don't seem to grasp the concept of conversions. The non Palestenian Jews has ancestors that converted to Judaism. Hell that is how any religion starts and grows in numbers. Many of their ancestors weren't from the land now called Israel and Palestine. And many of the Palestenian Muslims and Christians had ancestors that were Jewish and those are the natives you are talking about. All the descendants didn't stay Jewish and all of the Jews don't have their origin in ancient Judea. 

Number 8 is just supposition on your part without any relevance to reality. Israel has never tried it so we don't know what Hamas would do. And Israel would do it to prevent civilian causalities. If Israel actually gave a damn about innocents, it would send ground troops.

With regards to 9, The European Jews were suffering what you described before this Israel/Palestine mess the British created. The Europeans should have given the Jews equal rights and a home inside their own nations instead of taking over the homeland of the Palestenians

And yes, Israel has ALL the power. Israel are the occupiers, the oppressors and the de facto rulers of the entire region. They can have peace if they want and they can even destroy Hamas if they want. All they have to do is end the occupation of Palestenian land and the Hamas of today won't have a reason to exist anymore because the reason they fight is to end occupation. 

And yes president Biden will for sure just support Israel. US has done that for decades. 75% of Congress said it would unconditionally support Israel. Biden has called himself a Zionist in the pass. And it's not like US hasn't done or supported straight up oppression in the past. They aren't the good faith actors Americans like to pretend their government is. Biden doesn't support Medicare for all even though most Democrats and republicans hence most Americans support it. So it's not like Biden has never done unpopular stuff. 



Just a guy who doesn't want to be bored. Also

Ka-pi96 said:
SvennoJ said:

North Korea has outlawed religion, just saying. I guess you can call it a peaceful society, strict order.

That's simply not true. They've banned competing religions, that's all.

To quote a former North Korean "To my childish eyes and to those of all my friends, Kim Il-sung and Kim Jong-il were perfect beings, untarnished by any base human function. I was convinced, as we all were, that neither of them urinated or defecated. Who could imagine such things of gods?"

If that isn't a state religion then what is?

If you include state religion, then the 'American dream' is a religion as well. My kids get to stand for the national anthem every morning as well, even with online learning the day starts with the anthem. North Korea takes it to the extreme. However in the states the American dream is an untouchable subject as well. Plus see what happens when you burn a flag.

Anyway getting rid of religion isn't so simple, in the end, the state shall provide is as much a faith based organisation as religion. Then you have the military where blind trust in the commander in chief is drilled in. It's pretty amazing how many institutions humans create that rather not have you think for yourself.



Eagle367 said:

You guys can talk about religion all you want but this issue is not one religion. It's not judaism or Islam. It's a simple case of settler occupiers and the occupied. The natives suffering and the settlers living it large in the land of the natives

It is entirely based around religion.

Israel believes it is "entitled" to the land because it was given to them by "God" as per the Bible.

dark_gh0st_b0y said:
Pemalite said:

This is why the world needs to get rid of religion.

again, this kind of approach is simply wrong

as I said before, the world's deadliest humanitarian tragedies of all time have been carried out by atheist - 'free thinking' regimes, namely Nazism and Communism, with ~100m deaths each

Let's start with Nazism shall we? That was a war based around religion.
On one side the Nazi's were engaged in antisemitism to wipe out the Jewish religion.

The Nazi's also leveraged religion in order to undermine Judaism.. Hitler was also propped up as a "New Messiah".

Religion was a very big part of that war.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism#Religion

Communism is an economical doctrine... And one could argue full communism hasn't been achieved by any country yet, not even China which has Capitalistic aspects underpinning it's market based economy.


dark_gh0st_b0y said:


...and some of the world's greatest humanitarian efforts have been carried out by religious organizations, e.g. the Catholic church being the world's largest non-governmental provider of education and medical services

the world needs to get rid of extremism


Yes the Catholic Church gives allot, no one denies that.
They essentially have a "Store" in every single town/city/suburb, in every single state, in almost every single country on Earth... And you have people donating regularly... In return they offer various services that aids in indoctrination to keep the donation cycle going, it's a a lucrative business.

But Religion isn't a requirement to help others. - I'm not religious, neither is anyone in my Brigade, my job revolves around saving lives daily.

The Catholic Church can help so many people because they have a large revenue stream from it's paying customers, Governments also give them a free pass on things like Tax (Which I think Church's should pay for) so they have the resources to do it... And often Governments will "Donate" hoards of cash to assist various populations.

But don't kid yourself, there is some abuse that goes on in the Church. - They will often spend up big on campaigns (I.E. Same Sex Marriage) in order to try and turn voters to their agenda, they are very much entwined in American Politics... Heck even Australian politics but to a far lesser degree thankfully.

For example during last years catastrophic bushfire season here, Australians handed over hundreds of millions of dollars to various organisations, many of which were religious in order to assist us Firefighters with basic needs like Food and Sanitation... But also to assist those who needed to rebuild/recover from the fires as well.
Instead the religious organizations "Held back" (And continue to hold) hundreds of millions of dollars arguing "They will spend it later". - As you can imagine, it did result in a shit storm and deservedly so.

There are also plenty of non-religious organizations which help more than any singular church... The United Nations supported World Food Program is one such example and is the largest humanitarian program in existence.

You also have the Bill and Melinda Gates foundation as well.

Point is, religion isn't the requirement to help others, nor is it a requirement in humanitarian efforts either.


--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

SvennoJ said:
Ka-pi96 said:

That's simply not true. They've banned competing religions, that's all.

To quote a former North Korean "To my childish eyes and to those of all my friends, Kim Il-sung and Kim Jong-il were perfect beings, untarnished by any base human function. I was convinced, as we all were, that neither of them urinated or defecated. Who could imagine such things of gods?"

If that isn't a state religion then what is?

If you include state religion, then the 'American dream' is a religion as well. My kids get to stand for the national anthem every morning as well, even with online learning the day starts with the anthem. North Korea takes it to the extreme. However in the states the American dream is an untouchable subject as well. Plus see what happens when you burn a flag.

Anyway getting rid of religion isn't so simple, in the end, the state shall provide is as much a faith based organisation as religion. Then you have the military where blind trust in the commander in chief is drilled in. It's pretty amazing how many institutions humans create that rather not have you think for yourself.

I guess this ship has sailed a long time ago in America. 



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Pemalite said:
Eagle367 said:

You guys can talk about religion all you want but this issue is not one religion. It's not judaism or Islam. It's a simple case of settler occupiers and the occupied. The natives suffering and the settlers living it large in the land of the natives

It is entirely based around religion.

Israel believes it is "entitled" to the land because it was given to them by "God" as per the Bible.

dark_gh0st_b0y said:

again, this kind of approach is simply wrong

as I said before, the world's deadliest humanitarian tragedies of all time have been carried out by atheist - 'free thinking' regimes, namely Nazism and Communism, with ~100m deaths each

Let's start with Nazism shall we? That was a war based around religion.
On one side the Nazi's were engaged in antisemitism to wipe out the Jewish religion.

The Nazi's also leveraged religion in order to undermine Judaism.. Hitler was also propped up as a "New Messiah".

Religion was a very big part of that war.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism#Religion

Communism is an economical doctrine... And one could argue full communism hasn't been achieved by any country yet, not even China which has Capitalistic aspects underpinning it's market based economy.


dark_gh0st_b0y said:


...and some of the world's greatest humanitarian efforts have been carried out by religious organizations, e.g. the Catholic church being the world's largest non-governmental provider of education and medical services

the world needs to get rid of extremism


Yes the Catholic Church gives allot, no one denies that.
They essentially have a "Store" in every single town/city/suburb, in every single state, in almost every single country on Earth... And you have people donating regularly... In return they offer various services that aids in indoctrination to keep the donation cycle going, it's a a lucrative business.

But Religion isn't a requirement to help others. - I'm not religious, neither is anyone in my Brigade, my job revolves around saving lives daily.

The Catholic Church can help so many people because they have a large revenue stream from it's paying customers, Governments also give them a free pass on things like Tax (Which I think Church's should pay for) so they have the resources to do it... And often Governments will "Donate" hoards of cash to assist various populations.

But don't kid yourself, there is some abuse that goes on in the Church. - They will often spend up big on campaigns (I.E. Same Sex Marriage) in order to try and turn voters to their agenda, they are very much entwined in American Politics... Heck even Australian politics but to a far lesser degree thankfully.

For example during last years catastrophic bushfire season here, Australians handed over hundreds of millions of dollars to various organisations, many of which were religious in order to assist us Firefighters with basic needs like Food and Sanitation... But also to assist those who needed to rebuild/recover from the fires as well.
Instead the religious organizations "Held back" (And continue to hold) hundreds of millions of dollars arguing "They will spend it later". - As you can imagine, it did result in a shit storm and deservedly so.

There are also plenty of non-religious organizations which help more than any singular church... The United Nations supported World Food Program is one such example and is the largest humanitarian program in existence.

You also have the Bill and Melinda Gates foundation as well.

Point is, religion isn't the requirement to help others, nor is it a requirement in humanitarian efforts either.

Except there's a difference between Israel wanting it to be about religion vs it being about religion. If it was about religion, it paints this historic struggle that has been going on for centuries and that is complex and hard to figure out and solve. And Israel wants that. It doesn't want it not to be about religion because that would show the true face of the so called "conflict." It would show that it's actually about an occupying power taking over native land and oppressing them and squeezing them more and more until they snuff out. Israel doesn't want that. It's one of the oldest tales in the book. A new power comes and occupies land and oppresses the natives. But it's not about religion. Israel uses religion as a tool to promote it's agenda and many palestenians might do that as well to get help from Muslims, but it's not about religion. The central core issue has nothing to do with religion. The superficial clothings of religion are wrapped up around it though.



Just a guy who doesn't want to be bored. Also

What annoys me most is the agression and lack of care from the idf/israeli government when it comes to civilians. Biden and others keep saying israel has a right to defend themselves, yeah no shit mr obvious. It's the response and retaliation. When you look at the probablity of an israeli getting killed being so low, with the iron dome covering over 90% of strikes, the housing having protective structural walls and better preparation for attack, and then look at the Palestinians and the amount of civilian deaths,

They can't come up with a better strategy of getting soldiers there to take out hamas amd limit casual rates? I bet if there were israeli civilians in those buildings, they would take the utmost care and strategy in full force to make sure no one dies., probaby send in their special forces units to get them out, But hey it's just a Palestinian woman or child, so just use brute force, sorry and move on.

Such a shame how one can devalue life and the importance, simply because they are a few miles away under a different label and citizenship .



Related but unrelated, here is a music recommendation: Marillion - Gaza
Marillion is one of my favorite bands ever and they released a 17 minute song about the situation in Gaza, it's worth a listen, really beautiful and touching lyrics

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5VKmyDEF6U

Lyrics: (really good)
https://www.marillion.com/music/lyric.htm?id=824



Eagle367 said:
Pemalite said:

It is entirely based around religion.

Israel believes it is "entitled" to the land because it was given to them by "God" as per the Bible.

dark_gh0st_b0y said:

again, this kind of approach is simply wrong

as I said before, the world's deadliest humanitarian tragedies of all time have been carried out by atheist - 'free thinking' regimes, namely Nazism and Communism, with ~100m deaths each

Let's start with Nazism shall we? That was a war based around religion.
On one side the Nazi's were engaged in antisemitism to wipe out the Jewish religion.

The Nazi's also leveraged religion in order to undermine Judaism.. Hitler was also propped up as a "New Messiah".

Religion was a very big part of that war.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism#Religion

Communism is an economical doctrine... And one could argue full communism hasn't been achieved by any country yet, not even China which has Capitalistic aspects underpinning it's market based economy.



Yes the Catholic Church gives allot, no one denies that.
They essentially have a "Store" in every single town/city/suburb, in every single state, in almost every single country on Earth... And you have people donating regularly... In return they offer various services that aids in indoctrination to keep the donation cycle going, it's a a lucrative business.

But Religion isn't a requirement to help others. - I'm not religious, neither is anyone in my Brigade, my job revolves around saving lives daily.

The Catholic Church can help so many people because they have a large revenue stream from it's paying customers, Governments also give them a free pass on things like Tax (Which I think Church's should pay for) so they have the resources to do it... And often Governments will "Donate" hoards of cash to assist various populations.

But don't kid yourself, there is some abuse that goes on in the Church. - They will often spend up big on campaigns (I.E. Same Sex Marriage) in order to try and turn voters to their agenda, they are very much entwined in American Politics... Heck even Australian politics but to a far lesser degree thankfully.

For example during last years catastrophic bushfire season here, Australians handed over hundreds of millions of dollars to various organisations, many of which were religious in order to assist us Firefighters with basic needs like Food and Sanitation... But also to assist those who needed to rebuild/recover from the fires as well.
Instead the religious organizations "Held back" (And continue to hold) hundreds of millions of dollars arguing "They will spend it later". - As you can imagine, it did result in a shit storm and deservedly so.

There are also plenty of non-religious organizations which help more than any singular church... The United Nations supported World Food Program is one such example and is the largest humanitarian program in existence.

You also have the Bill and Melinda Gates foundation as well.

Point is, religion isn't the requirement to help others, nor is it a requirement in humanitarian efforts either.

Except there's a difference between Israel wanting it to be about religion vs it being about religion. If it was about religion, it paints this historic struggle that has been going on for centuries and that is complex and hard to figure out and solve. And Israel wants that. It doesn't want it not to be about religion because that would show the true face of the so called "conflict." It would show that it's actually about an occupying power taking over native land and oppressing them and squeezing them more and more until they snuff out. Israel doesn't want that. It's one of the oldest tales in the book. A new power comes and occupies land and oppresses the natives. But it's not about religion. Israel uses religion as a tool to promote it's agenda and many palestenians might do that as well to get help from Muslims, but it's not about religion. The central core issue has nothing to do with religion. The superficial clothings of religion are wrapped up around it though.

The Jews wanted a home for themselves and decided to take for themselves the land that was promised to them by their god, even if that land was held and surrounded by their enemies. Doesn't get more religious than that. Who in their right mind would do such a thing, knowing they will be caught up in eternal conflict and warfare? That's the power and ridiculousness of religion, my friend. There would not be a concept of Israel, if it wasn't based on religion.



Finally for the first time in my life, I don't have to use kiddy gloves in explaining one of the most one-way conflicts to ever exist.