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Forums - Microsoft Discussion - Xbox is becoming the unsung hero of this generation

smroadkill15 said:

So you're example of Xbox live not being as good was a 3rd party game and the headset? You didn't play Halo 3, Gears of war, Shadowrun, Forza? Halo 3 population numbers trounced any 1st party game on PSN, and Xbox was able to keep those services up with hardly any issues. Xbox live brought the feature of party chat, Cloud saves, made dedicated services a common place on consoles, and at least it included a headset. Shit, I would take the Xbox 360 mic over the Ps4 one Sony packed in with the console. PSN was subject to going offline more frequently, getting hacked, DDoSed, and was even hacked and brought offline for roughly a month or so. Nothing on that scale happened on Xbox live. Many 1st party games on the 360 are still online to this day. How many 1st party PSN games are still online? 

Now adays both services are roughly the same. I do not recall MS trying to make paid online for PC, and if they did they clearly learned quickly it wasn't going to work, and there is no way in hell they would try this now. So you are trying to make a 'what if' statement with nothing to back it up? Okay...

I'm just stating my personal experiences with both services. When PSN worked in PS3/360 gen, it was more stable and far less prone to disconnects or not being able to match, at no cost. I did play Forza and Forza 2 but it was just a mess online. PGR 2 had the same connection issues as TDU. Paying for XBox Live also made me feel like I should be playing multiplayer games to get my money's worth, so gave up on it.

I've never used party chat, cloud saves, don't play old games, it's all not relevant to my experience. Mics worked fine in GT5 lobbies, same with Resistance 2, but at some point I abandoned the whole voice chat since it just interferes with the game sound. (Have to turn it down to hear people talk about nonsense, no thanks). I've only used voice chat again in ST Bridge Crew without any issues.

The actions of fanboys attacking PSN, that's a reason to pay for another service?

You have never heard of Games for WIndows Live?
https://www.howtogeek.com/244902/why-pc-gamers-hated-microsofts-games-for-windows-live/

Anyway, as long as MS keeps locking up your HDD space with their windows store, I am not going back there. I don't play on PC to get part of my PC locked behind a gated wall. That's for consoles. Let me do what I want with save games and config files, mods and what not. As long as MS doesn't open up their draconian windows store, they will never be the hero.

But I'm still tempted to get a Series X at some point if Halo Infinite brings the goods. The concept is amazing, but it needs a great single player campaign for me to bite. Forza Horizon 5 will be great as well no doubt. Maybe a Series S will do, looks so much nicer but no drive. Series SX revision?



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Lets be perfectly honest here and i've been a gamer for many, many years, Xbox will never be the number one with a name like Microsoft behind it. Blunt but thats the facts, the name is pure mud in a lot of circles



LudicrousSpeed said:

If you’re bringing up tracks and maps from Perfect Dark and PGR, then the answer to your question is SOCOM II on PlayStation 2, though IIRC they required you to buy a magazine to get them, very Amiibo like. They also pioneered the online pass with a SOCOM game IIRC.

Moral of the story is these are companies who first and foremost want your money.

No, I'm talking about MTX- like the winter outfit in Kameo for $2.50 and new cars in PGR for 400 MS points. Most early DLC available on Xbox was free except for Microsoft published titles.

Even if you go with paid DLC MS were the first to charge for that. MS charged $4.99 for DLC with MechAssault on Xbox Live before Socom 2 had even launched worldwide. Nice try.

"Microsoft is the chief architect of the premium content service and is probably as keen as anybody to justify gathering loot." Eurogamer -2003 expressing concerns after MS announce MechAssault debuts paid Xbox Live content. Source.

I haven't seen this particular attempt to re-write history before.

It's really straight forward. MS made some of the earliest examples of MTX, put it in their first party games, actively advertised and pushed the idea to other developers and then popularized the practice through their service- Xbox Live. They also refused to allow developers- including Epic and Bizzare Creations to release free content.



 

Blad3force said:

Lets be perfectly honest here and i've been a gamer for many, many years, Xbox will never be the number one with a name like Microsoft behind it. Blunt but thats the facts, the name is pure mud in a lot of circles

Apple better not go into gaming, as that name is cursed about daily in our house. iPhone, nothing but problems, yet stuck with it. No clue how many times my wife nearly called 911 just trying to reboot the infernal thing. (It's on the same buttons)

Microsoft made great games historically and still does. FS2020 has me hooked completely, more than any of the earlier ones I played before since FS 2.0 (on Steam though which is not ideal either but far less issues than through the windows store) However instead of continuing to make great games they made crap like AoE online and MS Flight (been 14 years between FSX and FS2020, MS flight lasted 6 months) Their whole venture into consoles and looking for new revenue streams has hurt their reputation for games, at least as a PC gamer.

I always associated the Microsoft Game Studios logo with quality, not so much anymore today though. MS tries to hard to be a jack of all trades instead of focusing on one thing and doing it really well. FS2020, while great, is suffering from the push to have to run on XBox. It's been continually downgraded since release to conserve ram mostly. Current issues are the limited draw distance, turbulence modelling (turned down on purpose according the devs to make it easier for gamers) and landing in cross winds (also made easier since release and now very unrealistic) Meanwhile updates are slow, a lot of problems present since release still haven't been addressed. Almost as if the devs are busy with other things...



Dallinor said:
LudicrousSpeed said:

If you’re bringing up tracks and maps from Perfect Dark and PGR, then the answer to your question is SOCOM II on PlayStation 2, though IIRC they required you to buy a magazine to get them, very Amiibo like. They also pioneered the online pass with a SOCOM game IIRC.

Moral of the story is these are companies who first and foremost want your money.

No, I'm talking about MTX- like the winter outfit in Kameo for $2.50 and new cars in PGR for 400 MS points. Most early DLC available on Xbox was free except for Microsoft published titles.

Even if you go with paid DLC MS were the first to charge for that. MS charged $4.99 for DLC with MechAssault on Xbox Live before Socom 2 had even launched worldwide. Nice try.

"Microsoft is the chief architect of the premium content service and is probably as keen as anybody to justify gathering loot." Eurogamer -2003 expressing concerns after MS announce MechAssault debuts paid Xbox Live content. Source.

I haven't seen this particular attempt to re-write history before.

It's really straight forward. MS made some of the earliest examples of MTX, put it in their first party games, actively advertised and pushed the idea to other developers and then popularized the practice through their service- Xbox Live. They also refused to allow developers- including Epic and Bizzare Creations to release free content.

So... cars or tracks in a MS title “count” but maps in a Sony title don’t? Bizarre. Again not even mentioning that you had to go out and buy a shitty magazine for the SOCOM maps, too, Amiibo before Amiibo. 

And no one is rewriting history. My point was, as I said, these are all businesses who have one main goal and that’s money. Personally I find the idea that MS started this or that to be laughable because MS or Sony doing something doesn’t mean the other has to follow, but they do. Because they want... money. 

So congrats, MS had “MTX” during the Xbox era and Sony had “MTX” during the PS2 era. 



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SvennoJ said:
smroadkill15 said:

So you're example of Xbox live not being as good was a 3rd party game and the headset? You didn't play Halo 3, Gears of war, Shadowrun, Forza? Halo 3 population numbers trounced any 1st party game on PSN, and Xbox was able to keep those services up with hardly any issues. Xbox live brought the feature of party chat, Cloud saves, made dedicated services a common place on consoles, and at least it included a headset. Shit, I would take the Xbox 360 mic over the Ps4 one Sony packed in with the console. PSN was subject to going offline more frequently, getting hacked, DDoSed, and was even hacked and brought offline for roughly a month or so. Nothing on that scale happened on Xbox live. Many 1st party games on the 360 are still online to this day. How many 1st party PSN games are still online? 

Now adays both services are roughly the same. I do not recall MS trying to make paid online for PC, and if they did they clearly learned quickly it wasn't going to work, and there is no way in hell they would try this now. So you are trying to make a 'what if' statement with nothing to back it up? Okay...

I'm just stating my personal experiences with both services. When PSN worked in PS3/360 gen, it was more stable and far less prone to disconnects or not being able to match, at no cost. I did play Forza and Forza 2 but it was just a mess online. PGR 2 had the same connection issues as TDU. Paying for XBox Live also made me feel like I should be playing multiplayer games to get my money's worth, so gave up on it.

I've never used party chat, cloud saves, don't play old games, it's all not relevant to my experience. Mics worked fine in GT5 lobbies, same with Resistance 2, but at some point I abandoned the whole voice chat since it just interferes with the game sound. (Have to turn it down to hear people talk about nonsense, no thanks). I've only used voice chat again in ST Bridge Crew without any issues.

The actions of fanboys attacking PSN, that's a reason to pay for another service?

You have never heard of Games for WIndows Live?
https://www.howtogeek.com/244902/why-pc-gamers-hated-microsofts-games-for-windows-live/

Anyway, as long as MS keeps locking up your HDD space with their windows store, I am not going back there. I don't play on PC to get part of my PC locked behind a gated wall. That's for consoles. Let me do what I want with save games and config files, mods and what not. As long as MS doesn't open up their draconian windows store, they will never be the hero.

But I'm still tempted to get a Series X at some point if Halo Infinite brings the goods. The concept is amazing, but it needs a great single player campaign for me to bite. Forza Horizon 5 will be great as well no doubt. Maybe a Series S will do, looks so much nicer but no drive. Series SX revision?

Personal experience doesn't mean much when I'm talking about a fairly agreed upon idea that Xbox live was a better service. That like me saying, GWG is better than PS+ offering because I find the games to be more my taste. It's an impossible argument to go against because it's personal even though vast majority would agree that PS+ offers much better games. GFWL was terrible, and the fact I didn't know about that detail or forgot was probably due to fact hardly anyone used it. Either way, MS knows the PC community isn't going to pay for Xbox live so I'm not sure why you even think this is something that will happen later on. I'm not going to talk about the PC stuff anymore because it's off topic, and same with discussing stuff 2 gens ago. 



Dallinor said:
ice said:

Honestly I wouldn't have bothered with a response, there's a strong core group of people that think MS will always be evil/greedy and never should have joined the console business.

Sony was doing MTX before Xbox, why aren't they saying Sony made it an industry standard? Because apparently Xbox did with paying online. You can find the hypocrisy pretty damn quick when you go point by point.

Thankfully, if you look at forums less obsessed with Sales and Fanboyism like Resetera, you see Xbox getting a fair amount of props for doing some very consumer friendly stuff. 

What game was that?

MS were pitching the idea of microtransactions to publishers in early 2005. They put it in Kameo, Perfect Dark and Project Gotham as a proof of concept to developers. Bethesda was the first to jump in on the Microsoft idea and the infamous $2.50 horse armour became a reality. 

I wouldn't call costume packs released after a year the MTX standard we know today, but regardless my point was we can't blame MS for what other companies chose to do. Sony also supported the Online pass for games for a short while, where you had to buy a $10 MTX to play online if you bought it used. Thankfully that didn't stick but why are people trying to dredge up old ass shit just to justify their hate towards a brand? You can do that to either side. I'm saying to cut the bullshit.



LudicrousSpeed said:

So... cars or tracks in a MS title “count” but maps in a Sony title don’t? Bizarre. Again not even mentioning that you had to go out and buy a shitty magazine for the SOCOM maps, too, Amiibo before Amiibo. 

And no one is rewriting history. My point was, as I said, these are all businesses who have one main goal and that’s money. Personally I find the idea that MS started this or that to be laughable because MS or Sony doing something doesn’t mean the other has to follow, but they do. Because they want... money. 

So congrats, MS had “MTX” during the Xbox era and Sony had “MTX” during the PS2 era. 

Do you need a timeline or something, you seem confused?

It's incredibly simple.

Microsoft offered paid DLC first and paid MTX first. They put it in their games first, pitched the idea to other developers, and then popularized it through Xbox Live.

Your 'point' is irrelevant. You're just muddying the waters. Very obviously as well. 

There is no "congrats". Trying to lump the two together for damage control makes absolutely no sense when we're looking specifically at the origin between two companies and who popularized it. That's just trying to rewrite history.

It was Microsoft. End of Story. 



 

ice said:
Dallinor said:

What game was that?

MS were pitching the idea of microtransactions to publishers in early 2005. They put it in Kameo, Perfect Dark and Project Gotham as a proof of concept to developers. Bethesda was the first to jump in on the Microsoft idea and the infamous $2.50 horse armour became a reality. 

I wouldn't call costume packs released after a year the MTX standard we know today, but regardless my point was we can't blame MS for what other companies chose to do. Sony also supported the Online pass for games for a short while, where you had to buy a $10 MTX to play online if you bought it used. Thankfully that didn't stick but why are people trying to dredge up old ass shit just to justify their hate towards a brand? You can do that to either side. I'm saying to cut the bullshit.

Things were 'dredged up' because you made a categorically false statement. This was pointed out to you. You've now tried shifting the goalposts, scrapping the barrel for a counter and on the other hand telling people to cut the bullshit and drop it. There's no consistency whatsoever.

What has brand or emotions got to do with anything?

This isn't even an argument. Its just an endless series of fallacies at this point.



 

Dallinor said:
ice said:

I wouldn't call costume packs released after a year the MTX standard we know today, but regardless my point was we can't blame MS for what other companies chose to do. Sony also supported the Online pass for games for a short while, where you had to buy a $10 MTX to play online if you bought it used. Thankfully that didn't stick but why are people trying to dredge up old ass shit just to justify their hate towards a brand? You can do that to either side. I'm saying to cut the bullshit.

Things were 'dredged up' because you made a categorically false statement. This was pointed out to you. You've now tried shifting the goalposts, scrapping the barrel for a counter and on the other hand telling people to cut the bullshit and drop it. There's no consistency whatsoever.

What has brand or emotions got to do with anything?

This isn't even an argument. Its just an endless series of fallacies at this point.

lol No

You were completely right about MS using mtx, I was thinking about MTX as they're classified and used in today's games, that was 100% my bad. But I was using it as an example that companies make their own choices, and that point still stands (and was always the point). I wasn't trying to expose Playstation. The "dredge up" comment wasn't even towards you or about the topic of mtx. 

Brand/Emotions got everything to do with this thread, clearly. People feel very strongly about MS/XBOX.

idk what am supposed to argue about, I didn't say you were wrong. Am I supposed to deny facts? But there are nuances, and a lot of people wouldn't consider that mtx in today's world. I was explaining why I didn't include those, certainly not shifting any goalposts as my point was the same.

Just because MS charged for online doesn't mean Sony and Nintendo had to follow suit, my point was that if PS did MTX first does that mean other companies had followed them? You should be holding each company accountable for their own actions. That was literally the purpose of my original statement.