By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Politics Discussion - A French teacher beheaded, chaos ensues, EU warns Turkey of sanctions

Immersiveunreality said:
HollyGamer said:

That's incorrect, Muslim are not defending the terrorist's , they are mad because Macron trying to agitated by burning another fire and fuel to the problem and telling Islam is in crisis.  And allow people to slender an important person in Islam. This problem should have just end if Macron did not slandering Islam and the prophet.

Even Napoleon Bonaparte respect the Prophet and Islam, you can find Napoleon quote in the Internet  https://www.warhistoryonline.com/featured/did-you-know-napoleon-was-a-serious-admirer-of-islam.html

Macron should have knew Islam is a big religion and his country doing a business with Muslim country. 

Would have been a tactical mistake not to openly respect him

And the argument that even a famous war general respected Mohammed does not really weigh positively on Islam but quitte the opposite for most people in this thread i dare to assume.

Agree, people can hate Islam and not agree with Islam, but disrespecting other  people "faith" like ideology, religion, country, law, an important person,  Is just like attacking people. 

and also Macron did this due to his Political campaign and xenophobia's and create Islamic phobias is just even worse.  



Around the Network
HollyGamer said:

If in VGchart a  moderator  can ban people if agitating other member does that also applied on free speech, can I slender you or agitating you, or attacking you , does free speech only applied on certain people or group??? 

 religion or faith is matter of life and death for people, I think western society need to learn from Islam, many western people has been revert to Islam

That is not how free speech works.

Free speech does not and has not ever entitled you to say whatever you desire without restriction, in-fact free-speech is full of restrictions.

If you are getting upset over my commentary, then I apologize, but I still stand by my comments... No it is absolutely not slander, as I am not targeting my commentary at you as an individual... I don't necessarily like or dislike you as a person, I haven't met you, but I take issue with religion.

Religion and faith should not be a matter of life and death, life should always come first, period.

I think we could all learn from Atheism, science and sound logical reasoning rather than religious indoctrination that uses the power of fear and condemnation to ensure compliance.

HollyGamer said:

You it self is the prove. Life cannot exist with just some probability. Even our smallest part (DNA) work like an intelligent being on it's own

Probability? Never claimed any such thing.

DNA or deoxyribonucleic acid acting like an intelligent being? No. Our DNA is not sentient. This topic is probably to far out of your depth if this statement is an appropriate gauge.

HollyGamer said:

a tool exist to keep people behave, and God know this so he teach us . 

Any highly developed, Atheistic nation has proven that religion isn't required to ensure appropriate behavior.

If anything, religion has taught us the opposite... That religion helps breed extremism in various forms... Hence Islamist terrorists, Christian terrorists... Anti-women, attacks on LGBT rights and so much more.
Religious history is marred by war and abuse... How many priests have abused children? To many to count.

Secular nations that have ditched religion tend to have lower crime rates.
https://www.richarddawkins.net/2015/11/think-religion-makes-society-less-violent-think-again-op-ed/

HollyGamer said:

Law of the ruler, but he can be Muslim and follow other country  ruler.

I don't dispute that... This is where I tend to be extremely conservative... And that if anyone intends to migrate to my country and ignore the law of the land and instead follow their religious indoctrination, then stay out. You aren't welcome.

HollyGamer said:

Some part of the Torah text has been proven altered, the Original Torah was  made by God , but the original Torah are not maintained by the Jew and many Jew has hide some of the text and insert by their own writing to benefit their lust (the same thing with how the church did by altering the bible text ) . The same thing with the bible , Muslim believe in bible but not "Today" bible that even many high priest agree the original text has been lost. Qur'an it self are consisted of the correct version of bible and Torah , God has  preserve the original Torah and bible inside Qur'an.

All religious text has been altered.

There is no evidence a God has existed and made the Torah. Prove me otherwise. Try it.

The Quran is just another interpretation, what people "believe" is ultimately irrellevent, there is no evidence that supports any particular religion as being the "true" or "correct" or "unaltered" religion.

But what is absolutely true is that the Jewish Torah is the first of the three religions, it's the oldest.

HollyGamer said:

We believe in Qur'an because our Qur'an never been altered , the Qur'an was originally came with Arabic language from God to Muhammad by revelation, and then the prophet asked their companion to write it down to stone, animal skin and date tree and oak (the original stone, and animal skin still exist today and has been proven exist form the day of the prophet ). And then told all companion to memorize it, and in the end of Ramadhan they try to memorize it and preserve it https://onepathnetwork.com/the-history-of-the-preservation-of-the-quran/

The thing with language is that it actually changes over time.
A word can have one meaning in one century... And a completely different meaning in another.

At one point the word "Gay" was oft-used to term someone who felt happy... But fast forward 100~ years and it is referenced to someone who is homosexual.

Thus texts, whether it be religious or otherwise does and should change to adapt, but my point isn't about that... My point is that you have so many denominations (Even in the Muslim world I.E. Sunni, Shia etc') where they take on a different "interpretation" of the religious texts and interpret it in their own way to fit a certain narrative and that is fallacious.

So whilst you can try to claim that the Qur'an has never been altered, it's interpretations most certainly have.

Either way... I will provide some blatantly obvious evidence that the Quran has certainly been altered.
https://carm.org/have-there-been-changes-in-the-quran

Evidence is there, read it and weep.

HollyGamer said:

Life valuable indeed, and Muslim's  believe that, and Islam even Allah said " whoever kill a person ... it shall be as if he has killing all mankind. And I am agree, but of course there is some exception, like A criminal, a dangerous person, or person who live in Islam territory and mocking the prophet.

I feel life is less valuable in religions that call for torture, beheading, incarcerations, and response to criticisms... Did you not read the Op where there were terrorist attacks?

So whilst you might be able to pull a verse from the Quran bible that paints it in a "good" light, there are dozens of others which are downright disgusting and even plain evil.
Same goes for the Bible, there are a few lovey-dovey verses, but when there is a single verse that says a child should be stoned to death for breaking a law, then that religion is incompatible with a modern, secular, civilized world. And is not a religion and thus God worth our time.

HollyGamer said:

Even in secular country like French  they still have death punishment ,  and Police are allow to kill someone. 

No they don't. Don't lie.

https://www.diplomatie.gouv.fr/en/french-foreign-policy/human-rights/death-penalty/france-and-the-death-penalty/



HollyGamer said:
Immersiveunreality said:

Would have been a tactical mistake not to openly respect him

And the argument that even a famous war general respected Mohammed does not really weigh positively on Islam but quitte the opposite for most people in this thread i dare to assume.

Agree, people can hate Islam and not agree with Islam, but disrespecting other  people "faith" like ideology, religion, country, law, an important person,  Is just like attacking people. 

and also Macron did this due to his Political campaign and xenophobia's and create Islamic phobias is just even worse.  

I am ridiculing your religion, not attacking you as an individual. There is a very big difference there.

Perhaps Islam needs to evolve like Christianity and Judaism to work around the phobias, honestly they bring it on themselves, just look at the middle-east.




Last edited by Pemalite - on 07 November 2020

--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

HollyGamer said:
DonFerrari said:

And you just happen to agree with it, and say christians are in the wrong for not doing the same. Do you really a powerful being like god need you defemding him to the point of killing who disagree?

And also in my opinion, Christian should respect Jesus more if they still believe in their religion. It's sad many Cristian is not Christian anymore. If they love Jesus they should at least angry with many seculars person make fun of Jesus. Me as Muslim sad to see Jesus treated that way.

Thing is, if Jesus was really like the bible portrayed him to be, he wouldn't give a fuck about what other people say about him.

That's why modern Christians aren't going to be as angry about it when someone mocks him. If Jesus wouldn't care, why would I?

Not sure if I can say the same about Muhammad.



HollyGamer said:
Immersiveunreality said:

Would have been a tactical mistake not to openly respect him

And the argument that even a famous war general respected Mohammed does not really weigh positively on Islam but quitte the opposite for most people in this thread i dare to assume.

Agree, people can hate Islam and not agree with Islam, but disrespecting other  people "faith" like ideology, religion, country, law, an important person,  Is just like attacking people. 

and also Macron did this due to his Political campaign and xenophobia's and create Islamic phobias is just even worse.  

My comment was about what you said involving Napoleon Bonaparte his relations with islam, it would make no sense if he disrespected it.

And one of the problems between islam and (modern) christian people is that we view freedom of speech differently in relation to religion, what is a sin to you is a freedom for others and a normal everyday freedom to have.

I would be happy if a new prophet arises, one that can make cultures more connected but i fear the coming of a new prophet wont even be accepted by islam as a whole because there aint no unity and who even could have the full authority on that?

I'm not religious myself but solutions can be found amongst groups that already understand eachother.

Last edited by Immersiveunreality - on 07 November 2020

Immersiveunreality said:
HollyGamer said:

Agree, people can hate Islam and not agree with Islam, but disrespecting other  people "faith" like ideology, religion, country, law, an important person,  Is just like attacking people. 

and also Macron did this due to his Political campaign and xenophobia's and create Islamic phobias is just even worse.  

My comment was about what you said involving Napoleon Bonaparte his relations with islam, it would make no sense if he disrespected it.

And one of the problems between islam and (modern) christian people is that we view freedom of speech differently in relation to religion, what is a sin to you is a freedom for others and a normal everyday freedom to have.

I would be happy if a new prophet arises, one that can make cultures more connected but i fear the coming of a new prophet wont even be accepted by islam as a whole because there aint no unity and who even could have the full authority on that?

I'm not religious myself but solutions can be found amongst groups that already understand eachother.

That's because modern Christian is not a religion anymore . A Christian nowadays is just tradition pass by their parent , many Christian were living their religion because they believe Christian is just and old way , a tradition and cannot exist on modern world society. 

It's different from Islam, Islam in general live can live with modern society and help society to evolve. We don't separate religion with modernization because the religion it self already perfect and can be tested. 



Around the Network
HollyGamer said:

That's incorrect, Muslim are not defending the terrorist's , they are mad because Macron trying to agitated by burning another fire and fuel to the problem and telling Islam is in crisis.  And allow people to slender an important person in Islam. This problem should have just end if Macron did not slandering Islam and the prophet.

Even Napoleon Bonaparte respect the Prophet and Islam, you can find Napoleon quote in the Internet  https://www.warhistoryonline.com/featured/did-you-know-napoleon-was-a-serious-admirer-of-islam.html

Macron should have knew Islam is a big religion and his country doing a business with Muslim country. 

If this is so, why aren't there any demonstrations against, you know, the mere assassination?

You have to understand how ridiculous this situation looks over here. America, for example, is a 75% Christian country demographically wherein Jesus Christ is parodied on TV programs like South Park all the time and nobody dies as a result. Now there are many conservative Christians who are offended by such things and who in the past have been known to protest and even try to have programs like South Park censored or taken off the air altogether, but those people didn't represent the prevailing opinion of the nation and nobody died.

Likewise, people "slander" me every day on the internet. Do I behead them in response? Well I feel like it sometimes momentarily, but no, I choose not to act on that impulse because that would be retarded. But maybe there's too much commentary on religion itself implied here in this statement.

I guess what I'm trying to get at here is that I don't really understand this level of upset over the idea of being criticized. I understand finding the criticism of one's faith unpleasant, but generally in the Western world you'll find that people (who aren't the current president of the United States) get over being criticized because it's not actually the end of the world. It's not like people in Muslim-majority countries generally grant people the right to freedom of religious belief or respect other people's faiths at all -- I mean most of the world's remaining theocracies are Islamic ones if I'm not mistaken -- so there just seems to be a massive amount of hypocrisy going on in such people marching against the mere criticism of Islam to the neglect of the context in which said criticism took place, claiming that their freedom of religion has been violated by words; by other people's freedom of speech. No Muslim's right to belief and to worship has been hindered here. Someone has died though. In fact, many people have died at this point.

Last edited by Jaicee - on 07 November 2020

Barozi said:
HollyGamer said:

And also in my opinion, Christian should respect Jesus more if they still believe in their religion. It's sad many Cristian is not Christian anymore. If they love Jesus they should at least angry with many seculars person make fun of Jesus. Me as Muslim sad to see Jesus treated that way.

Thing is, if Jesus was really like the bible portrayed him to be, he wouldn't give a fuck about what other people say about him.

That's why modern Christians aren't going to be as angry about it when someone mocks him. If Jesus wouldn't care, why would I?

Not sure if I can say the same about Muhammad.

That's because the bible that you read is still debatable if it's still the original bible or not according to some expert. Muslim believe that Jesus did not crucified and God did not let him die and scarified , we Muslim respect Jesus , Moses, Abraham, Noah and every apostle and Prophet . Because Muslim believe that Jesus brought the same messages to worship One God alone. And Jesus is son of Maryam is a prophet like Muhammad and Moses.  



Jaicee said:

As I scan this thread and review this unfolding story, I notice that there are two things here: words and deeds. Macron's statements on Islam are words. They were offered in response to a beheading. That's a deed. You can't help but notice which seems to offend so many Muslims the world over more.

Maybe I'm getting it wrong, but what this situation looks like to me is a bunch of Muslims all over the world marching and protesting in defense of a terrorist. I can only hope I'm misunderstanding.

Precisely so, this is why I'm strongly against any argument or position that asserts that violence is a legitimate and acceptable answer to rhetoric, words, or expressed ideas. It sets an extremely dangerous precedent.

This is how our very own mass-murdering Anders Breivik functioned; he saw ideas, heard words and rhetoric, and deemed it acceptable, and even necessary, to murder the ones sharing and developing these ideas and words based on a heartfelt desire to promote a safer and better society. He himself was equally convinced that he was in actual fact the hero, based on his own unique, dogmatic schism.

Words are words, murder is murder, whether commited by the state or an individual, a sect, or a secular body with judicial weight. Blasphemy is an archaic notion that belongs in history books; not as guiding principles on whose heads deserve to remain attached to their torso. 



Jaicee said:
HollyGamer said:

That's incorrect, Muslim are not defending the terrorist's , they are mad because Macron trying to agitated by burning another fire and fuel to the problem and telling Islam is in crisis.  And allow people to slender an important person in Islam. This problem should have just end if Macron did not slandering Islam and the prophet.

Even Napoleon Bonaparte respect the Prophet and Islam, you can find Napoleon quote in the Internet  https://www.warhistoryonline.com/featured/did-you-know-napoleon-was-a-serious-admirer-of-islam.html

Macron should have knew Islam is a big religion and his country doing a business with Muslim country. 

If this is so, why aren't there any demonstrations against, you know, the mere assassination?

You have to understand how ridiculous this situation looks over here. America, for example, is a 75% Christian country demographically wherein Jesus Christ is parodied on TV programs like South Park all the time and nobody dies as a result. Now there are many conservative Christians who are offended by such things and who in the past have been known to protest and even try to have programs like South Park censored or taken off the air altogether, but those people didn't represent the prevailing opinion of the nation and nobody died.

Likewise, people "slander" me every day on the internet. Do I behead them in response? Well I feel like it sometimes momentarily, but no, I choose not to act on that impulse because that would be retarded. But maybe there's too much commentary on religion itself implied here in this statement.

I guess what I'm trying to get at here is that I don't really understand this level of upset over the idea of being criticized. I understand finding the criticism of one's faith unpleasant, but generally in the Western world you'll find that people (who aren't the current president of the United States) get over being criticized because it's not actually the end of the world. It's not like people in Muslim-majority countries generally grant people the right to freedom of religious belief or respect other people's faiths at all -- I mean most of the world's remaining theocracies are Islamic ones if I'm not mistaken -- so there just seems to be a massive amount of hypocrisy going on in such people marching against the mere criticism of Islam to the neglect of the context in which said criticism took place, claiming that their freedom of religion has been violated by words; by other people's freedom of speech. No Muslim's right to belief and to worship has been hindered here. Someone has died though. In fact, many people have died at this point.

You said by your self, it's mere assassination's by a terrorist's, any terrorist's are not affiliate with any religion Religion. No religion allow to kill anyone without some reasoning and cause. 

Muslim already condemned the killing act, but the problem is Macron make it bigger by blaming Muslim , blaming the religion, and allowing another slandering act and protected as free speech but at the same time hurting  Muslim around the world. 

The problem should have ended if Macron did not blame Islam and Muslim. 



HollyGamer said:

You said by your self, it's mere assassination's by a terrorist's, any terrorist's are not affiliate with any religion Religion. No religion allow to kill anyone without some reasoning and cause. 

Muslim already condemned the killing act, but the problem is Macron make it bigger by blaming Muslim , blaming the religion, and allowing another slandering act and protected as free speech but at the same time hurting  Muslim around the world. 

The problem should have ended if Macron did not blame Islam and Muslim. 

So like for example when an organization calls itself the Islamic State, that's a non-religious organization, you're saying?

I think it's worth being serious about getting to the roots of why terrorists commit acts of terror. Whether it's considered politically correct or not to say as much (the French people being known for their brutal frankness), religion definitely was the motive here. That's just a fact.

Also, I was obviously being sarcastic when I said "the mere assassination" before. The taking of someone's life is obviously the more genuine and serious issue here. It's obviously a big deal.

This is about intolerance. Macron was criticizing intolerant elements within Islam in response to a beheading. That's not irrational or unjustified. As an atheist lesbian myself, I can't help agreeing with the view that says most Muslims around the world are quite a bit more bigoted against me than I am against them. They would generally take away my right to be an atheist, my right to love other women, and hell maybe even my right to leave my house without the accompany of a male guardian because, being merely a woman, I'm not even thought of as an adult let alone their equal. Despite these realities, the unconditional respect of your faith by everyone on the globe is demanded. No. That's not how it works. If you want the respect of others, you have to treat them with the same level of respect you demand from them.

You can believe whatever you want, I don't care. But what you can't do is demand that I practice your faith or that I respect hypocrites.

Last edited by Jaicee - on 07 November 2020