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Forums - Politics Discussion - A French teacher beheaded, chaos ensues, EU warns Turkey of sanctions

JuliusHackebeil said:
HollyGamer said:

Actually mocking a prophet in Islam considered as ultra big sin . The prophet is a holly person and beloved person more than their parent, country  or even their life. In Islam Muslim are considered Muslim if they believe in One God and The Prophet. This not my opinion but if you are a Muslim this is just natural. 

But this of course does not mean we can kill every none believer on the street. Muslim need to follow the rule of a country or ruler , even he an orthodox Muslim. And yes the person who mocking the prophet are guilty according to Islam and the one who be headed the person also wrong. 

And no there is no objective , faith is subjective. Faith in every way including religion , science, ideology are subject based. The cause of this faith either religion, ideology are purely subjective.  

Perhaps it should not be that way. Maybe it is a bad idea to think of an author who lived 1500 years ago as more important than your parents, country and life. You say this is just natural for a muslim. Perhaps this is why Islam needs a reform.

Also, it is nice to be nice. But I am convinced of the idea that you should be able to joke about and criticise everything without fear of physical harm. And it should not matter one bit if you are guilty of anything according to Islam. To mix religion and government must be a bad idea, always. As long as you are not guilty according to the law you are not guilty at all and there is nothing you should fear.

Also, I should not have to point this out, but criticising somebody (no matter who it is) is very objectivly not as bad as killing somebody, by several orders of magnitude. Or to put it another way: critique is not bad at all. Sometimes it is in bad taste. But only children throw a hissy fit because somebody said something they did not like. Murder on the other hand is one of the worst crimes you can possibly commit.

Muhammad is not the author of Qur'an , he cannot read nor write in living on the dessert far from Civilization far from science  . The Qur'an is the miracle that keep proving and already tested by science, artistic literation and modern time even until now. That's why many people converting to Islam.

It's bad idea in your opinion, but Muslim believe that QUr'an and Islam is the guidance for life that teach how we live as society, teach us on doing business, on family and how to live as society in country 

It's objective by opinion not by general rule of thumb. 



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Pemalite said:
HollyGamer said:

You can have your opinion and do a free speech, but a free speech need to have some respect to other religion. In Indonesia we respect every religion although we are different in race , religion etc. You can have your opinion of Buddha, Jesus, Muhammad peace be upon him. But we never mocking other people holly person or God. I believe in free speech, and Muslim and believe in tolerant act . But Macron is not the best person to teach us about tolerant and free speech.

Even Napoleon Bonaparte respect Muhammad and Islam.

Beheading people also is also wrong, but remember both are wrong. And Macron should apologize, the person who beheaded need to be punish and people who mock the prophet need to be punish as well.

Well. No, free-speech doesn't need to respect any religion.
Free-speech as a construct doesn't care about any individual or religious feelings.

I think we should openly mock religion, religion needs to start proving it's assertions with empirical evidence first before it receives any such protections.

If in VGchart a  moderator  can ban people if agitating other member does that also applied on free speech, can I slender you or agitating you, or attacking you , does free speech only applied on certain people or group??? 

 religion or faith is matter of life and death for people, I think western society need to learn from Islam, many western people has been revert to Islam

HollyGamer said:

The Cristian problem is Christianity problem, Christian is not even a religion anymore now. Why would a religion need reform, if a religion can be reform than it's not religion by God but by Human. The Cristian should asking them self why would they allow people slandering and mocking Jesus peace be upon him, even Muslim angry when Jesus, Moses, Abraham, Noah and every other Abrahamic  prophet  are mocked by bad people. 

In Islam we are not changing anything because Islam is the religion from God it self. We believe Islam is the religion of Abraham, Jesus and Moses and Noah and the prophet Muhammad peace be upon all of them.

Prove your God exists for your religion to be from God itself.

You it self is the prove. Life cannot exist with just some probability. Even our smallest part (DNA) work like an intelligent being on it's own

HollyGamer said:

Also my opinion killing person is bad, i am condemned the person it self self, but like i said this is not just my opinion, If I was the ruler of Islamic country and i let people mocking The prophet than i will let a very big sin slip away . It's a major sin in Islam.  

Again, you would need to prove that God exists for Sin to be real as Sin is a religious invention... A tool to assist people to keep "in line".

a tool exist to keep people behave, and God know this so he teach us . 

HollyGamer said:

You can agree or disagree, but in Islam, mocking the prophet is sentence by death of course that if you are mocked the prophet inside Islamic ruled country. This not my opinion but The Qur'an told us to. Like it or not that's the rule of Islam.  Again the person who slender or mock the prophet has to be inside Islamic ruled country . If not then , Muslim need to follow the local authority regarding this and be patient. 

Correct. The Law of the Land comes first.
In saying that, sentence to death by being critical of a religion means that religion needs to be removed.

Law of the ruler, but he can be Muslim and follow other country  ruler.  

HollyGamer said:

In Islam my  opinion is useless in front of Allah words and the prophet words, i don't have opinion regarding this because i follow God and the prophet, my opinion are based on Qur'an and the prophet words. So according to god and the prophet yes the person can be punish and killed by the local Islamic ruler. 

The Quran like the Bible is based on the Abrahamic texts that defined the first of the three main religions... Judaism with the Torah.
Allah literal translation is "God" the same God that is in the Torah and Bible.

What makes you think the Quran is correct and the Bible or Torah is incorrect? Faith isn't an acceptable answer, that's just blind indoctrinated belief rather than anything based on tangible evidence, functional models or understanding. In short it's highly fallacious reasoning.
The Torah, Quran and Bible are books written by man, translated and "interpreted (I.E. Meanings changed to suit the day)" to fit a certain narrative, I.E. Homosexuality as a word didn't exist 6,000 years ago, yet are included in these religious texts to various degrees.

Life is valuable, life is finite, so destroying life because it might offend someones indoctrinated beliefs is actually abhorrent and disgusting in my eyes. (Keep in mind we don't even have the death penalty here.)
I think any religion (Including the Bible and Torah) needs to be shut down if it promotes any kind of inequality, hate or death.

Some part of the Torah text has been proven altered, the Original Torah was  made by God , but the original Torah are not maintained by the Jew and many Jew has hide some of the text and insert by their own writing to benefit their lust (the same thing with how the church did by altering the bible text ) . The same thing with the bible , Muslim believe in bible but not "Today" bible that even many high priest agree the original text has been lost. Qur'an it self are consisted of the correct version of bible and Torah , God has  preserve the original Torah and bible inside Qur'an.

We believe in Qur'an because our Qur'an never been altered , the Qur'an was originally came with Arabic language from God to Muhammad by revelation, and then the prophet asked their companion to write it down to stone, animal skin and date tree and oak (the original stone, and animal skin still exist today and has been proven exist form the day of the prophet ). And then told all companion to memorize it, and in the end of Ramadhan they try to memorize it and preserve it https://onepathnetwork.com/the-history-of-the-preservation-of-the-quran/

Life valuable indeed, and Muslim's  believe that, and Islam even Allah said " whoever kill a person ... it shall be as if he has killing all mankind. And I am agree, but of course there is some exception, like A criminal, a dangerous person, or person who live in Islam territory and mocking the prophet. Even in secular country like French  they still have death punishment ,  and Police are allow to kill someone. 

Also i condemned the killing of the Frenchman teacher not because I am agree with teacher free speech,  but because the person who killed are wrong , the killer should not act by him self, because Muslim need to follow the regulation and rule of the country, even if the country is not defending him he should have let the Police do the Job and be patient. But for death sentence by the Islamic ruler for non Muslim who slender the prophet , i thinks that is another matter. 

 

Last edited by HollyGamer - on 07 November 2020

As I scan this thread and review this unfolding story, I notice that there are two things here: words and deeds. Macron's statements on Islam are words. They were offered in response to a beheading. That's a deed. You can't help but notice which seems to offend so many Muslims the world over more.

Maybe I'm getting it wrong, but what this situation looks like to me is a bunch of Muslims all over the world marching and protesting in defense of a terrorist. I can only hope I'm misunderstanding.



Jaicee said:

As I scan this thread and review this unfolding story, I notice that there are two things here: words and deeds. Macron's statements on Islam are words. They were offered in response to a beheading. That's a deed. You can't help but notice which seems to offend so many Muslims the world over more.

Maybe I'm getting it wrong, but what this situation looks like to me is a bunch of Muslims all over the world marching and protesting in defense of a terrorist. I can only hope I'm misunderstanding.

That's incorrect, Muslim are not defending the terrorist's , they are mad because Macron trying to agitated by burning another fire and fuel to the problem and telling Islam is in crisis.  And allow people to slender an important person in Islam. This problem should have just end if Macron did not slandering Islam and the prophet.

Even Napoleon Bonaparte respect the Prophet and Islam, you can find Napoleon quote in the Internet  https://www.warhistoryonline.com/featured/did-you-know-napoleon-was-a-serious-admirer-of-islam.html

Macron should have knew Islam is a big religion and his country doing a business with Muslim country. 



HollyGamer said:
Jaicee said:

As I scan this thread and review this unfolding story, I notice that there are two things here: words and deeds. Macron's statements on Islam are words. They were offered in response to a beheading. That's a deed. You can't help but notice which seems to offend so many Muslims the world over more.

Maybe I'm getting it wrong, but what this situation looks like to me is a bunch of Muslims all over the world marching and protesting in defense of a terrorist. I can only hope I'm misunderstanding.

That's incorrect, Muslim are not defending the terrorist's , they are mad because Macron trying to agitated by burning another fire and fuel to the problem and telling Islam is in crisis.  And allow people to slender an important person in Islam. This problem should have just end if Macron did not slandering Islam and the prophet.

Even Napoleon Bonaparte respect the Prophet and Islam, you can find Napoleon quote in the Internet  https://www.warhistoryonline.com/featured/did-you-know-napoleon-was-a-serious-admirer-of-islam.html

Macron should have knew Islam is a big religion and his country doing a business with Muslim country. 

Would have been a tactical mistake not to openly respect him

And the argument that even a famous war general respected Mohammed does not really weigh positively on Islam but quitte the opposite for most people in this thread i dare to assume.



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Immersiveunreality said:
HollyGamer said:

That's incorrect, Muslim are not defending the terrorist's , they are mad because Macron trying to agitated by burning another fire and fuel to the problem and telling Islam is in crisis.  And allow people to slender an important person in Islam. This problem should have just end if Macron did not slandering Islam and the prophet.

Even Napoleon Bonaparte respect the Prophet and Islam, you can find Napoleon quote in the Internet  https://www.warhistoryonline.com/featured/did-you-know-napoleon-was-a-serious-admirer-of-islam.html

Macron should have knew Islam is a big religion and his country doing a business with Muslim country. 

Would have been a tactical mistake not to openly respect him

And the argument that even a famous war general respected Mohammed does not really weigh positively on Islam but quitte the opposite for most people in this thread i dare to assume.

Agree, people can hate Islam and not agree with Islam, but disrespecting other  people "faith" like ideology, religion, country, law, an important person,  Is just like attacking people. 

and also Macron did this due to his Political campaign and xenophobia's and create Islamic phobias is just even worse.  



HollyGamer said:

If in VGchart a  moderator  can ban people if agitating other member does that also applied on free speech, can I slender you or agitating you, or attacking you , does free speech only applied on certain people or group??? 

 religion or faith is matter of life and death for people, I think western society need to learn from Islam, many western people has been revert to Islam

That is not how free speech works.

Free speech does not and has not ever entitled you to say whatever you desire without restriction, in-fact free-speech is full of restrictions.

If you are getting upset over my commentary, then I apologize, but I still stand by my comments... No it is absolutely not slander, as I am not targeting my commentary at you as an individual... I don't necessarily like or dislike you as a person, I haven't met you, but I take issue with religion.

Religion and faith should not be a matter of life and death, life should always come first, period.

I think we could all learn from Atheism, science and sound logical reasoning rather than religious indoctrination that uses the power of fear and condemnation to ensure compliance.

HollyGamer said:

You it self is the prove. Life cannot exist with just some probability. Even our smallest part (DNA) work like an intelligent being on it's own

Probability? Never claimed any such thing.

DNA or deoxyribonucleic acid acting like an intelligent being? No. Our DNA is not sentient. This topic is probably to far out of your depth if this statement is an appropriate gauge.

HollyGamer said:

a tool exist to keep people behave, and God know this so he teach us . 

Any highly developed, Atheistic nation has proven that religion isn't required to ensure appropriate behavior.

If anything, religion has taught us the opposite... That religion helps breed extremism in various forms... Hence Islamist terrorists, Christian terrorists... Anti-women, attacks on LGBT rights and so much more.
Religious history is marred by war and abuse... How many priests have abused children? To many to count.

Secular nations that have ditched religion tend to have lower crime rates.
https://www.richarddawkins.net/2015/11/think-religion-makes-society-less-violent-think-again-op-ed/

HollyGamer said:

Law of the ruler, but he can be Muslim and follow other country  ruler.

I don't dispute that... This is where I tend to be extremely conservative... And that if anyone intends to migrate to my country and ignore the law of the land and instead follow their religious indoctrination, then stay out. You aren't welcome.

HollyGamer said:

Some part of the Torah text has been proven altered, the Original Torah was  made by God , but the original Torah are not maintained by the Jew and many Jew has hide some of the text and insert by their own writing to benefit their lust (the same thing with how the church did by altering the bible text ) . The same thing with the bible , Muslim believe in bible but not "Today" bible that even many high priest agree the original text has been lost. Qur'an it self are consisted of the correct version of bible and Torah , God has  preserve the original Torah and bible inside Qur'an.

All religious text has been altered.

There is no evidence a God has existed and made the Torah. Prove me otherwise. Try it.

The Quran is just another interpretation, what people "believe" is ultimately irrellevent, there is no evidence that supports any particular religion as being the "true" or "correct" or "unaltered" religion.

But what is absolutely true is that the Jewish Torah is the first of the three religions, it's the oldest.

HollyGamer said:

We believe in Qur'an because our Qur'an never been altered , the Qur'an was originally came with Arabic language from God to Muhammad by revelation, and then the prophet asked their companion to write it down to stone, animal skin and date tree and oak (the original stone, and animal skin still exist today and has been proven exist form the day of the prophet ). And then told all companion to memorize it, and in the end of Ramadhan they try to memorize it and preserve it https://onepathnetwork.com/the-history-of-the-preservation-of-the-quran/

The thing with language is that it actually changes over time.
A word can have one meaning in one century... And a completely different meaning in another.

At one point the word "Gay" was oft-used to term someone who felt happy... But fast forward 100~ years and it is referenced to someone who is homosexual.

Thus texts, whether it be religious or otherwise does and should change to adapt, but my point isn't about that... My point is that you have so many denominations (Even in the Muslim world I.E. Sunni, Shia etc') where they take on a different "interpretation" of the religious texts and interpret it in their own way to fit a certain narrative and that is fallacious.

So whilst you can try to claim that the Qur'an has never been altered, it's interpretations most certainly have.

Either way... I will provide some blatantly obvious evidence that the Quran has certainly been altered.
https://carm.org/have-there-been-changes-in-the-quran

Evidence is there, read it and weep.

HollyGamer said:

Life valuable indeed, and Muslim's  believe that, and Islam even Allah said " whoever kill a person ... it shall be as if he has killing all mankind. And I am agree, but of course there is some exception, like A criminal, a dangerous person, or person who live in Islam territory and mocking the prophet.

I feel life is less valuable in religions that call for torture, beheading, incarcerations, and response to criticisms... Did you not read the Op where there were terrorist attacks?

So whilst you might be able to pull a verse from the Quran bible that paints it in a "good" light, there are dozens of others which are downright disgusting and even plain evil.
Same goes for the Bible, there are a few lovey-dovey verses, but when there is a single verse that says a child should be stoned to death for breaking a law, then that religion is incompatible with a modern, secular, civilized world. And is not a religion and thus God worth our time.

HollyGamer said:

Even in secular country like French  they still have death punishment ,  and Police are allow to kill someone. 

No they don't. Don't lie.

https://www.diplomatie.gouv.fr/en/french-foreign-policy/human-rights/death-penalty/france-and-the-death-penalty/



HollyGamer said:
Immersiveunreality said:

Would have been a tactical mistake not to openly respect him

And the argument that even a famous war general respected Mohammed does not really weigh positively on Islam but quitte the opposite for most people in this thread i dare to assume.

Agree, people can hate Islam and not agree with Islam, but disrespecting other  people "faith" like ideology, religion, country, law, an important person,  Is just like attacking people. 

and also Macron did this due to his Political campaign and xenophobia's and create Islamic phobias is just even worse.  

I am ridiculing your religion, not attacking you as an individual. There is a very big difference there.

Perhaps Islam needs to evolve like Christianity and Judaism to work around the phobias, honestly they bring it on themselves, just look at the middle-east.




Last edited by Pemalite - on 07 November 2020

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HollyGamer said:
DonFerrari said:

And you just happen to agree with it, and say christians are in the wrong for not doing the same. Do you really a powerful being like god need you defemding him to the point of killing who disagree?

And also in my opinion, Christian should respect Jesus more if they still believe in their religion. It's sad many Cristian is not Christian anymore. If they love Jesus they should at least angry with many seculars person make fun of Jesus. Me as Muslim sad to see Jesus treated that way.

Thing is, if Jesus was really like the bible portrayed him to be, he wouldn't give a fuck about what other people say about him.

That's why modern Christians aren't going to be as angry about it when someone mocks him. If Jesus wouldn't care, why would I?

Not sure if I can say the same about Muhammad.



HollyGamer said:
Immersiveunreality said:

Would have been a tactical mistake not to openly respect him

And the argument that even a famous war general respected Mohammed does not really weigh positively on Islam but quitte the opposite for most people in this thread i dare to assume.

Agree, people can hate Islam and not agree with Islam, but disrespecting other  people "faith" like ideology, religion, country, law, an important person,  Is just like attacking people. 

and also Macron did this due to his Political campaign and xenophobia's and create Islamic phobias is just even worse.  

My comment was about what you said involving Napoleon Bonaparte his relations with islam, it would make no sense if he disrespected it.

And one of the problems between islam and (modern) christian people is that we view freedom of speech differently in relation to religion, what is a sin to you is a freedom for others and a normal everyday freedom to have.

I would be happy if a new prophet arises, one that can make cultures more connected but i fear the coming of a new prophet wont even be accepted by islam as a whole because there aint no unity and who even could have the full authority on that?

I'm not religious myself but solutions can be found amongst groups that already understand eachother.

Last edited by Immersiveunreality - on 07 November 2020

Immersiveunreality said:
HollyGamer said:

Agree, people can hate Islam and not agree with Islam, but disrespecting other  people "faith" like ideology, religion, country, law, an important person,  Is just like attacking people. 

and also Macron did this due to his Political campaign and xenophobia's and create Islamic phobias is just even worse.  

My comment was about what you said involving Napoleon Bonaparte his relations with islam, it would make no sense if he disrespected it.

And one of the problems between islam and (modern) christian people is that we view freedom of speech differently in relation to religion, what is a sin to you is a freedom for others and a normal everyday freedom to have.

I would be happy if a new prophet arises, one that can make cultures more connected but i fear the coming of a new prophet wont even be accepted by islam as a whole because there aint no unity and who even could have the full authority on that?

I'm not religious myself but solutions can be found amongst groups that already understand eachother.

That's because modern Christian is not a religion anymore . A Christian nowadays is just tradition pass by their parent , many Christian were living their religion because they believe Christian is just and old way , a tradition and cannot exist on modern world society. 

It's different from Islam, Islam in general live can live with modern society and help society to evolve. We don't separate religion with modernization because the religion it self already perfect and can be tested.