By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Politics Discussion - A French teacher beheaded, chaos ensues, EU warns Turkey of sanctions

Jaicee said:
DonFerrari said:

Will just disagree on the president. For the power he holds and the amount of mockery he receives I don't see he taking any absurd measures. While other groups try to make every comment against them a form of prejudice and hatred to make people go to jail or lose job because of what they said.

Oh I see. So you've never heard of the infamous "LOCK..HER..UP! LOCK..HER..UP!" chant that everyone else on Earth remembers as a defining feature of his first election campaign, you're saying? Likewise, you don't recall Mr. Trump recently calling on Congress to arrest and imprison his rival in this election, Joe Biden, as well as Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton, and pretty much all other prominent Democrats in existence for good measure? You don't remember him sending in the army to quell protests even after the cities in question asked him not to? You don't remember him threatening to delay this year's presidential election because he might lose (er I mean 'corrupt mail-in ballots', sorry)? You don't recall his endorsement of the Proud Boys (a right wing street gang that requires its members to physically attack leftists) last month? Or his repeated attempts to impose new legal restrictions on the ability of the press ("the enemy of the people", in his words) to criticize him? Or his decision to do nothing in response to the cold-blooded murder of a Washington Post journalist because the Washington Post had been critical of him? Or his attempt to ban TikTok because some kids used it to prank him this summer? Or the tax hikes on "blue states" contained in the 2017 "tax cut" bill because those people voted against him? Or his systematic withholding of personal protective equipment from "blue states" because they voted against him (i.e. 'you didn't vote for me, so you can die from the virus')? All of that slipping your mind? That's just for starters! I could go on with this list forever if you want, but the point is that the man obviously can't handle dissent. We are only lucky that he hasn't gotten his way much of the time because if he did...*shudders*...I don't even want to think about what kind of country we'd be right now. We'd be like his favorite country, Russia.

Donald Trump is NOT a good poster boy for free speech, or for freedom of anything in general. I really only threw in a passing mention of him because the reality is that without the Islamic State, he wouldn't be president. The kind of actions and attitudes we're talking about on this thread are much of the reason he was able to become a viable candidate. People across the Western world legitimately feared for their lives after seeing what happened to France and Sweden in 2015. That was very real. I felt it. I was scared too. That's what terrorism is. It's the whole point. Without it, there's no way Donald Trump would be my president right now. This is how people like Trump and Modi and the rest go from being demagogues to becoming heads of state.

Actually no I don't, these haven't reached Brazil.

I do know several places requested for elections to be suspended because well we have lockdown to avoid large number of people in same place, but for election politicians will ignore it (In Brazil we had pandemic fearmongering for months but on the month of election everybody is supposed to pretend everything is under control to go and vote, and quite likely them hear about a second wave).

Will you say Biden, Obama et caterva doesn't support BLM that essentially do violent acts? The tiktok what I know was that USA forced they to be sold to an American company.

Trump certainly isn't a poster boy for free speech, nor is any politician as far as I'm concerned. But to pretend the regular citizen doesn't demand even more (looking at you cancel culture). Trump and some other right wing politicians are declared dictators by their oponents, but all we can really verify is they claiming something done but not really changing laws or doing anything really dictatorial. And sure terrorism makes people feel in terror (that is their purpose) and sure politicians that take a pledge to be hard on it will gain traction.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

Around the Network
HollyGamer said:
sales2099 said:

First paragraph is nonsense. It’s called “separation of Church and state”. Religious laws do not trump society laws in the West. In general there is a major sensitivity problem that needs to be addressed. I am offended by anti Christian rhetoric, but people can say whatever they please in a free country. That’s how a modern society should function. 

Separation can only happen it there is something wrong with the source of the  religion and the bible has been question of originality. In Islam we don't have that because separation is a sin for a ruler (if you a ruler of a country and Muslim but separate God and country ) but this sin only applied to a ruler or government who believe in Islam. 

I’d counter that these laws from Judaism, Christianity and Islam were written when life was harsh and its laws reflected that. We have evolved as a species and as such the laws have largely changed since 1500+ years ago. I’m just gonna say if people of your faith believe saying words equals death, or chopping off heads is even considered as a punishment, then maybe you need some type of reform. 

Our faith and belief doesn’t change. How we conduct ourselves as people should however adapt with the times. 



Xbox: Best hardware, Game Pass best value, best BC, more 1st party genres and multiplayer titles. 

 

sales2099 said:
HollyGamer said:

Separation can only happen it there is something wrong with the source of the  religion and the bible has been question of originality. In Islam we don't have that because separation is a sin for a ruler (if you a ruler of a country and Muslim but separate God and country ) but this sin only applied to a ruler or government who believe in Islam. 

I’d counter that these laws from Judaism, Christianity and Islam were written when life was harsh and its laws reflected that. We have evolved as a species and as such the laws have largely changed since 1500+ years ago. I’m just gonna say if people of your faith believe saying words equals death, or chopping off heads is even considered as a punishment, then maybe you need some type of reform. 

Our faith and belief doesn’t change. How we conduct ourselves as people should however adapt with the times. 

I think the same of some of the jewish traditions, they not eating pork, removing the skin from the penis and some other you can really see were really helpful 2000 years ago or more because it helped hygiene and increased their survival rates. But nowadays they aren't necessary, but well as long as it doesn't harm others I don't care they keep with those. But sure whatever costume that is harmful needs to go.

And contrary to many atheist I recognize the importance to religion and religious thinking in shaping our culture and law. Several stuff we call moral, law and etc were born from religious teaching and are good.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

DonFerrari said:

Actually no I don't, these haven't reached Brazil.

I do know several places requested for elections to be suspended because well we have lockdown to avoid large number of people in same place, but for election politicians will ignore it (In Brazil we had pandemic fearmongering for months but on the month of election everybody is supposed to pretend everything is under control to go and vote, and quite likely them hear about a second wave).

Will you say Biden, Obama et caterva doesn't support BLM that essentially do violent acts? The tiktok what I know was that USA forced they to be sold to an American company.

Trump certainly isn't a poster boy for free speech, nor is any politician as far as I'm concerned. But to pretend the regular citizen doesn't demand even more (looking at you cancel culture). Trump and some other right wing politicians are declared dictators by their oponents, but all we can really verify is they claiming something done but not really changing laws or doing anything really dictatorial. And sure terrorism makes people feel in terror (that is their purpose) and sure politicians that take a pledge to be hard on it will gain traction.

That you're implicitly comparing a mass, largely non-violent movement of millions of people to a street gang perfectly shows the kind of disingenuousness that one depends on to defend Donald Trump. Black Lives Matter does not "essentially do violent acts". A small minority of participants sometimes respond to direct acts of police violence against them physically is what you'll find happens. That is quite different from endorsing an organization that requires its members to physically combat political rivals. Black lives do matter. Racial justice does matter. One is hardly a tyrant or a more violent person for saying as much.

I don't really wish to further pursue this exchange on President Trump and how Covid-19 is () supposedly not a real problem here on this thread because I feel we're getting a bit far astray from the actual subject at hand by so doing. I will just say that there was a time  in late 2015 and early 2016 when I felt open to the idea of banning Muslims from entering the country like Trump was proposing myself. But there were so many other things about him that made me see right through his act. The "Hillary for Prison" stuff, the Access Hollywood video, the proposal to deport like half the immigrant population in this country...I mean his whole shit was public safety, and yet most of the time he spoke, he made me feel less safe, not more safe. That's why I had no difficulty voting for Hillary Clinton. But I do understand why some people might have had different opinions, unfortunately.



Barozi said:
HollyGamer said:

And also in my opinion, Christian should respect Jesus more if they still believe in their religion. It's sad many Cristian is not Christian anymore. If they love Jesus they should at least angry with many seculars person make fun of Jesus. Me as Muslim sad to see Jesus treated that way.

Thing is, if Jesus was really like the bible portrayed him to be, he wouldn't give a fuck about what other people say about him.

That's why modern Christians aren't going to be as angry about it when someone mocks him. If Jesus wouldn't care, why would I?

Not sure if I can say the same about Muhammad.

Your avatar - it is too perfect - really says it all. The one episode of South Park with Mohammed in it - can't be aired anymore because of the nut cases, fundamentalists, extrimists, whatever you want to call the muslims who think people commit a crime by portraying their prophet. Your pal Jesus, no problemo. Macron is right - Islam needs reform.



Around the Network
HollyGamer said:

Yet what happen in France is they mocking the prophet, slandering, and ridiculed the prophet based on false accusation 

Good. They are entitled to do so.

Our job isn't to shut down people we disagree with, our job is to counter their points with sound logical reasoning and evidence.

HollyGamer said:

Not at all , I am not offended by anyone in here on this thread  , my comment is about why Macron defending free speech but at the same time what he did is not protecting free speech at all. 

Again. Free speech has a ton of restrictions.

Libel/Defamation being one such example.

HollyGamer said:

That's your opinion,  I respect that, but for me and Muslim . Religion is part of life and death. And Muslim believe there is life after death.

I don't care what Muslims or any religion believes.
There is zero evidence to support the assertion that there is life after death.

But what there is evidence for is life right now and that needs to come first.

If religion is incompatible with that, then I believe religion needs to go, life comes first, then property, then the environment, that is the hierarchy us first responders abide by.

HollyGamer said:

Again this your opinion, we are not here to discuss a religion,  but moral according to their own rule. We can discuss on another thread discussing about which one is correct.

Well no. We are here to discuss religion within the context of the title and the Op.

The religious "morals" (I use that term loosely... As any religion that promotes discrimination, hate, death penalty has no morals.) are a part of the religious structure.

But nice try deflecting.

HollyGamer said:

Again, this will lead to a bigger discussion, so i will end the discussion here. 

I have acknowledged that you have conceded this point due to the evidence presented.

HollyGamer said:

Again this is debatable, we are not here to discuss which one is correct way and methode 

It's really not debatable, it's logic. Again, I will acknowledge that you have conceded this point due to the evidence presented.

HollyGamer said:

Again this debatable but for sure, but don't forget many has been killed in the name of atheism like Marxism, and etc. 

I think you are confused.

Marxism is political and economical theories, not a religious position.

Atheism isn't actually a disbelief in a God or Gods, Atheism is about not holding a religious position because the burden of proof hasn't been met for certain religious claims.

Everyone is actually born Atheist, it's only later that indoctrination's like Islam converts them.

So basically this is a goal-post shifting logical fallacy.

HollyGamer said:

Muslim has been living on non Muslim place since the day of the prophet, they spreading in China, Europe, Asia and etc. Under non Muslim ruled country  . Islam teach to respect the local rule . 

Again. I don't disagree with that.

HollyGamer said:

Again this will create another debate out of this topic. I will end here

There is nothing to debate. There is no evidence to support your position.

HollyGamer said:

Qur'an never  changed, in fact Arabic grammatical word came from Qur'an. Before Qur'an exist the Arab did not have grammar

You keep saying this, but the evidence I have presented prior has determined that this is a lie.

HollyGamer said:

Again the shia is not Muslim because they don't believe in Qur'an  but that's for another topic. They are minority who reject Islam as teaching but pretend to be Islam, but in reality they rejecting to believe of the Qur'an and prophet words, they even killing many Muslim 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shia_Islam

And I quote:
"Shia Islam is the second largest branch of Islam: as of the late 2000s, Shia Muslims constituted 10–15% of all Muslims.[10] Twelver Shia is the largest branch of Shia Islam,[11] with 2012 estimates saying that 85% of Shias were Twelvers."

They are Muslims. Meaning this is another falsehood you are trying to propogate.

HollyGamer said:

that's not evidence at all, that just opinion  by shia. The Qur'an are still the same , the same words the same language, the same meaning unlike Bible that has been lost it's original language . The Qur'an has been translate to many language but the original Qur'an it self still preserve on original form "Arabic" . While it's true there is many dialect but the dialect never altered it's meaning and it still the same, even you can find the Qur'an that written in the stone from the prophet era. 

False. The evidence is there. Read it.

It's literally comparing different interpretations of the Qur'an. Meaning the words, language and interpretations are different.
The fact you are trying to argue this point despite the evidence shows you have a confirmation bias which is also a logical fallacy.

HollyGamer said:

Did Muslim kill every person on the street, or it just one person misguided?  The fact that Muslim are killed by the Rohingya, execute on India,  prove the other way Around, Muslim always been attacked , they should be the one attacking if your idea is true then Muslim the one who always rage a war.  

You don't need every Muslim to kill someone. You just need "enough" for there to be a systemic issue of violence... And let's face it. There absolutely is a systemic issue with religious extremism and violence and thus religion should be shut down until it can reform and become better.

I don't want Islam in my country anymore than I want Christianity or Judaism or any other religion, don't think I am targeting Islam alone in this, far from it.

HollyGamer said:

I am never said Islam always peace and love, there is some exception boundary and reason, that's why Islam can coexist with modern society. We can defend our self if it means killing people like any modern society  

The last several decades has proven it really can't.

HollyGamer said:

Ok so they can kill people in the war . :) 

You are confusing the death penalty with self defense or a countries right to self determination.

They are completely different things with completely different causes, purposes and goals.

You may need to do some research to get an understanding on the differences.

HollyGamer said:

My religion is not wrong, you can blame me but not my religion. The person who killed are not following the correct Islamic teaching .  The religion is perfect,  it  even help a barbaric un educated group of people living on the dessert far form civilization to be civilize, helping Europe gaining renaissance era.  When the Muslim spread on Europe . They help build the country unlike Mongol .

Prove it's not wrong. Stop using opinions and actually prove it. Go ahead, try. Please. You can do it, you got this.

The religion is far from perfect with it's hateful verses that seems to be a common theme with all abrahamic religions, they use the power of fear to subdue people to conforming to an indoctrinated way of life that I believe is incompatible with a modern, equal, highly advanced, respectful, democratic society.





--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

Immersiveunreality said:
HollyGamer said:
Jaicee said:

So like for example when an organization calls itself the Islamic State, that's a non-religious organization, you're saying?

I think it's worth being serious about getting to the roots of why terrorists commit acts of terror. Whether it's considered politically correct or not to say as much (the French people being known for their brutal frankness), religion definitely was the motive here. That's just a fact.

Also, I was obviously being sarcastic when I said "the mere assassination" before. The taking of someone's life is obviously the more genuine and serious issue here. it's obviously a big deal.

This is about intolerance. Macron was criticizing intolerant elements within Islam in response to a beheading. That's not irrational or unjustified. As an atheist lesbian myself, I can't help agreeing with the view that says most Muslims around the world are quite a bit more bigoted against me than I am against them. They would generally take away my right to be an atheist, my right to love other women, and hell maybe even my right to leave my house without the accompany of a male guardian because, being merely a woman, I'm not even thought of as an adult let alone their equal. Despite these realities, the unconditional respect of your faith by everyone on the globe is demanded. No. That's not how it works. If you want the respect of others, you have to treat them with the same level of respect you demand from them.

You can believe whatever you want, I don't care. But what you can't do is demand that I practice your faith or that I respect hypocrites.

Yes, the evidence is Islam never teach people or Muslim to kill people without reasoning, without judge permission, authority and without cause . There are some  misguided Muslim out there that made a mistake , i can agree but Islam it self never teach that. The same thing with every other religion like White supremacist , Hindus terroirs, Nazi or even Jew (Israel ) Zionist.

No in Islam we cannot killed people without any reasoning , without the permission of local authority ,Muslim cannot kill people or sentence people to death without permission of judge or other reasoning.

So The terrorist's is just a misguided people who misunderstood about Islam

“You ˹polytheists˺ may travel freely through the land for four months, but know that you will have no escape from Allah, and that Allah will disgrace the disbelievers.”1

A declaration from Allah and His Messenger ˹is made˺ to all people on the day of the greater pilgrimage1 that Allah and His Messenger are free of the polytheists. So if you ˹pagans˺ repent, it will be better for you. But if you turn away, then know that you will have no escape from Allah. And give good news ˹O Prophet˺ to the disbelievers of a painful punishment.

As for the polytheists who have honoured every term of their treaty with you and have not supported an enemy against you, honour your treaty with them until the end of its term. Surely Allah loves those who are mindful ˹of Him˺.

But once the Sacred Months have passed, kill the polytheists ˹who violated their treaties˺ wherever you find them,1 capture them, besiege them, and lie in wait for them on every way. But if they repent, perform prayers, and pay alms-tax, then set them free. Indeed, Allah is All-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

And if anyone from the polytheists asks for your protection ˹O Prophet˺, grant it to them so they may hear the Word of Allah, then escort them to a place of safety, for they are a people who have no knowledge.

How ˹can they have a treaty˺? If they were to have the upper hand over you, they would have no respect for kinship or treaty. They only flatter you with their tongues, but their hearts are in denial, and most of them are rebellious.

They chose a fleeting gain over Allah’s revelations, hindering ˹others˺ from His Way. Evil indeed is what they have done!

They do not honour the bonds of kinship or treaties with the believers. It is they who are the transgressors.

But if they repent, perform prayer, and pay alms-tax, then they are your brothers in faith. This is how We make the revelations clear for people of knowledge.

But if they break their oaths after making a pledge and attack your faith, then fight the champions of disbelief—who never honour their oaths—so perhaps they will desist.

Will you not fight those who have broken their oaths, conspired to expel the Messenger ˹from Mecca˺, and attacked you first? Do you fear them? Allah is more deserving of your fear, if you are ˹true˺ believers.

˹So˺ fight them and Allah will punish them at your hands, put them to shame, help you overcome them, and soothe the hearts of the believers—

Do you ˹pagans˺ consider providing the pilgrims with water and maintaining the Sacred Mosque as equal to believing in Allah and the Last Day and struggling in the cause of Allah? They are not equal in Allah’s sight. And Allah does not guide the wrongdoing people.

O believers! Do not take your parents and siblings as trusted allies if they choose disbelief over belief. And whoever of you does so, they are the ˹true˺ wrongdoers.

Say, ˹O Prophet,˺ “If your parents and children and siblings and spouses and extended family and the wealth you have acquired and the trade you fear will decline and the homes you cherish—˹if all these˺ are more beloved to you than Allah and His Messenger and struggling in His Way, then wait until Allah brings about His Will. Allah does not guide the rebellious people.”

Indeed Allah has given you ˹believers˺ victory on many battlefields, even at the Battle of Ḥunain1 when you took pride in your great numbers, but they proved of no advantage to you. The earth, despite its vastness, seemed to close in on you, then you turned back in retreat.

Then Allah sent down His reassurance1 upon His Messenger and the believers, and sent down forces2 you could not see, and punished those who disbelieved. Such was the reward of the disbelievers.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yeah this is a snippet of a controversial part, do you acknowledge this can be used as a tool of extremism?

Bolded: Why not make an effort to not let people be misguided, is fingerpointing the most important or the effort?

No it cannot be used for tool of extremism or blame it for made people misguided. 

The surah even explained that the situation and condition. It was happen in land where tribalism happen, where there is no king and where people still on war and there is no ruler. because they have different situation, context and situation is very different.

The situation happen when The prophet and their companion trying to go inside Mecca to do pilgrimage but the ruler of the place forbid it for stupid reason. 

And also the surah and ayah explained further "And if anyone from the polytheists asks for your protection ˹O Prophet˺, grant it to them so they may hear the Word of Allah, then escort them to a place of safety, for they are a people who have no knowledge." This is explained that the prophet did not killed people easily but grant them protection , so it means if the person want to have peace .

read again the Qur'an verse and chapter that  you copied from Internet, the one that you copied in fact explain the context, the situation and the continuation of the story, nothing wrong with that . In fact it's normal, it was happen when the unbelievers disrespect the treaty , bullies' the prophet and attacked.

It's different from killing non Muslim or innocent people nowadays by the terrorist's.  



sales2099 said:
HollyGamer said:
sales2099 said:

First paragraph is nonsense. It’s called “separation of Church and state”. Religious laws do not trump society laws in the West. In general there is a major sensitivity problem that needs to be addressed. I am offended by anti Christian rhetoric, but people can say whatever they please in a free country. That’s how a modern society should function. 

Separation can only happen it there is something wrong with the source of the  religion and the bible has been question of originality. In Islam we don't have that because separation is a sin for a ruler (if you a ruler of a country and Muslim but separate God and country ) but this sin only applied to a ruler or government who believe in Islam. 

I’d counter that these laws from Judaism, Christianity and Islam were written when life was harsh and its laws reflected that. We have evolved as a species and as such the laws have largely changed since 1500+ years ago. I’m just gonna say if people of your faith believe saying words equals death, or chopping off heads is even considered as a punishment, then maybe you need some type of reform. 

Our faith and belief doesn’t change. How we conduct ourselves as people should however adapt with the times. 

Yes indeed Islam when it was reveal was in the harsh condition where people who lived where living in tribal age and far from civilization, and constant tribal war. But then again the prophet still continue receiving Qur'an revelations after The prophet won the battled and the prophet ended the war. The prophet still receiving the revelation and guided by God in peaceful era . Even when The prophet still in exodus in Madinah , The prophet living peaceful life with Non Muslim and doing business and transaction and deal with Jews, pagans and some Christian in Medina. 

So Qur'an has teach us in many condition etc.

Also Qur'an are not written by Muhammad , there is no Muhammad opinion or idea inside Qur'an. Even the prophet has very less name on it . inside the Qur'an is purely God revelation that God speak to the person who read from first person perspective. Muhammad is just messenger that cannot read, nor write. How come he able to write a fantastic book that lead a backward society and tribal people to be the most influential cavillation also lead the modern technology and civilization  until now. Nor human able to do that, because indeed the book are not written by person (Muhammad) 



HollyGamer said:
sales2099 said:
HollyGamer said:
sales2099 said:

First paragraph is nonsense. It’s called “separation of Church and state”. Religious laws do not trump society laws in the West. In general there is a major sensitivity problem that needs to be addressed. I am offended by anti Christian rhetoric, but people can say whatever they please in a free country. That’s how a modern society should function. 

Separation can only happen it there is something wrong with the source of the  religion and the bible has been question of originality. In Islam we don't have that because separation is a sin for a ruler (if you a ruler of a country and Muslim but separate God and country ) but this sin only applied to a ruler or government who believe in Islam. 

I’d counter that these laws from Judaism, Christianity and Islam were written when life was harsh and its laws reflected that. We have evolved as a species and as such the laws have largely changed since 1500+ years ago. I’m just gonna say if people of your faith believe saying words equals death, or chopping off heads is even considered as a punishment, then maybe you need some type of reform. 

Our faith and belief doesn’t change. How we conduct ourselves as people should however adapt with the times. 

Yes indeed Islam when it was reveal was in the harsh condition where people who lived where living in tribal age and far from civilization, and constant tribal war. But then again the prophet still continue receiving Qur'an revelations after The prophet won the battled and the prophet ended the war. The prophet still receiving the revelation and guided by God in peaceful era . Even when The prophet still in exodus in Madinah , The prophet living peaceful life with Non Muslim and doing business and transaction and deal with Jews, pagans and some Christian in Medina. 

So Qur'an has teach us in many condition etc.

Also Qur'an are not written by Muhammad , there is no Muhammad opinion or idea inside Qur'an. Even the prophet has very less name on it . inside the Qur'an is purely God revelation that God speak to the person who read from first person perspective. Muhammad is just messenger that cannot read, nor write. How come he able to write a fantastic book that lead a backward society and tribal people to be the most influential cavillation also lead the modern technology and civilization  until now. Nor human able to do that, because indeed the book are not written by person (Muhammad) 

The history lesson doesn’t address what I said. I said through the ages to modern times, our faith and devotion remains the same. However I think as a species we moved past the point of killing people for saying “words”. 



Xbox: Best hardware, Game Pass best value, best BC, more 1st party genres and multiplayer titles. 

 

Pemalite said:
HollyGamer said:

Yet what happen in France is they mocking the prophet, slandering, and ridiculed the prophet based on false accusation 

Good. They are entitled to do so.

Our job isn't to shut down people we disagree with, our job is to counter their points with sound logical reasoning and evidence.

Why they are entitled to mocking, Libeling,  Defamation  the prophet ??? Isn't the free speech cannot contain defamation, libel, and mocking,  ridiculing's or insulting a person ??? 

The problem is what happen in France is  not about critique or opinion,  but defaming , ridiculing's and insulting based on false acquisition that are not even unproven historically.  

You talk about logic and reasoning but in really insulting, mocking and defaming is what really happen and it's againts free speech.

HollyGamer said:

Not at all , I am not offended by anyone in here on this thread  , my comment is about why Macron defending free speech but at the same time what he did is not protecting free speech at all. 

Again. Free speech has a ton of restrictions.

Libel/Defamation being one such example.

Yet you don't understand that what happen in French is not frees speech, it's full of insulting, defamation to the prophet.    

HollyGamer said:

That's your opinion,  I respect that, but for me and Muslim . Religion is part of life and death. And Muslim believe there is life after death.

I don't care what Muslims or any religion believes.
There is zero evidence to support the assertion that there is life after death.

But what there is evidence for is life right now and that needs to come first.

If religion is incompatible with that, then I believe religion needs to go, life comes first, then property, then the environment, that is the hierarchy us first responders abide by.

Well you ether agree to disagree, people have right to choose, or  to believe or not, I am not here to convince you. I am just here to give you a reason we have different opinion, different faith and different believe. 

And agree there is zero evidence to support the assertion of life after death and overwhelming  evidence off life, that is indisputable and i agree. That because we are living on presents life while we are living and breathing, eating and interacting.

No one can prove life after death because no one from death able to back to life. And no one can prove if because no science able to do that based  on " human knowledge " that is limited by  "small brain ". That sometimes can be correct, but most of the times incorrect.

That's why we are not depending on "human " science alone, human are fragile, weak, can be sick, and limited by age, their small IQ, their desire and their needs. Human is not omnipotent. 

HollyGamer said:

Again this your opinion, we are not here to discuss a religion,  but moral according to their own rule. We can discuss on another thread discussing about which one is correct.

Well no. We are here to discuss religion within the context of the title and the Op.



The religious "morals" (I use that term loosely... As any religion that promotes discrimination, hate, death penalty has no morals.) are a part of the religious structure.

Which is incorrect , Islam does not promotes hates, death penalty, without any reasoning and cause. I can prove you many modern ideology is far worse than that. Tell that to Marxism and communisms . Also tell that to world war1 and world war 2 where secularism ideology lead to genocide 

The context of the OP is not about proving religion right  or not . PERIOD, make another thread 


But nice try deflecting.

HollyGamer said:

Again, this will lead to a bigger discussion, so i will end the discussion here. 

I have acknowledged that you have conceded this point due to the evidence presented.

I have a lot evidence but evidence will not able convinced people even if the evidence is right and can be proven by scientific method especially people like you who look dawn people opinion. 

And thus showing you million of evidence is useless to people like you, go outside and speak to local mosque (Masjid) and asked Muslim that living in your place 

HollyGamer said:

Again this is debatable, we are not here to discuss which one is correct way and methode 

It's really not debatable, it's logic. Again, I will acknowledge that you have conceded this point due to the evidence presented.

You talking about logic this and logic that. But there is no logic on ridiculing's Muslim and respecting other people idea. You just egoistic . If you want evidence just search more on Internet, visit local masjid, read book about  " The Bible, the Qur'an and Science: The Holy Scriptures Examined in the Light of Modern Knowledge " 

HollyGamer said:

Again this debatable but for sure, but don't forget many has been killed in the name of atheism like Marxism, and etc. 

I think you are confused.

Marxism is political and economical theories, not a religious position.

Atheism isn't actually a disbelief in a God or Gods, Atheism is about not holding a religious position because the burden of proof hasn't been met for certain religious claims.

Everyone is actually born Atheist, it's only later that indoctrination's like Islam converts them.

So basically this is a goal-post shifting logical fallacy.

I am not confused, Marxism is not just political and economical believe, it's more than that. Every law, moral, way of life  are born from ideology it can be from philosophy or from religion. All of that came from human idea. The same with Marxism where Religion is burden to people.

Atheisms is not believe in God , the prove is people like you who don't believe on greater power and omnipotent existent then human. 

This your goal shifting logical fallacy from discussing free speech to arguing about which one is the correct one. 

HollyGamer said:

Muslim has been living on non Muslim place since the day of the prophet, they spreading in China, Europe, Asia and etc. Under non Muslim ruled country  . Islam teach to respect the local rule . 

Again. I don't disagree with that.

What a short answer , yet you cannot explain and elaborate . But I am fine I am here not looking for debate. you are not importunate to waste my time for that . You can search on Internet that history of  Islam on Internet.

HollyGamer said:

Again this will create another debate out of this topic. I will end here

There is nothing to debate. There is no evidence to support your position.

There is nothing to debate because you are trying move the goal post. Stop moving the goal post Mr. moderator

HollyGamer said:

Qur'an never  changed, in fact Arabic grammatical word came from Qur'an. Before Qur'an exist the Arab did not have grammar

You keep saying this, but the evidence I have presented prior has determined that this is a lie.

you are giving me a web link yet your self are not reading  the article, Show me which part of Qur'an that has been altered? 

HollyGamer said:

Again the shia is not Muslim because they don't believe in Qur'an  but that's for another topic. They are minority who reject Islam as teaching but pretend to be Islam, but in reality they rejecting to believe of the Qur'an and prophet words, they even killing many Muslim 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shia_Islam

And I quote:
"Shia Islam is the second largest branch of Islam: as of the late 2000s, Shia Muslims constituted 10–15% of all Muslims.[10] Twelver Shia is the largest branch of Shia Islam,[11] with 2012 estimates saying that 85% of Shias were Twelvers."

They are Muslims. Meaning this is another falsehood you are trying to propogate.

Tell me how to define Muslim as a Muslim ? I am asking you because you just copied the article without knowing  " what is the meaning of Islam " and "Muslim"

For example; There are many people who can claim they are "American or US citizen" but they are not American based on US law

The same thing can be explain with the shia,

HollyGamer said:

that's not evidence at all, that just opinion  by shia. The Qur'an are still the same , the same words the same language, the same meaning unlike Bible that has been lost it's original language . The Qur'an has been translate to many language but the original Qur'an it self still preserve on original form "Arabic" . While it's true there is many dialect but the dialect never altered it's meaning and it still the same, even you can find the Qur'an that written in the stone from the prophet era. 

False. The evidence is there. Read it.

It's literally comparing different interpretations of the Qur'an. Meaning the words, language and interpretations are different.
The fact you are trying to argue this point despite the evidence shows you have a confirmation bias which is also a logical fallacy.

None of the article were correct. because Arabic is only one , alto it has many dialect the meaning are the same, even if it has Persian dialect, Moroccan dialect, Mecca  the meaning of are the same. Arabic is still Arabic. For example The words  " Kitabun " in many dialect are the same "book" . The Qur'an has it's own Arabic that are not changed. Arabic words and language  is evolving I agree and it can be proven by literation on many generation . But The Qur'an it self are not because . The Qur'an were written on it's own Qur'anic words that even the Arab did not understand until it was explained by the prophet Him self. 

Thus claiming the Qur'an has been  " changed/altered  " because "the Arabic words/language and literature  " evolving is just false and wrong.  language and literature  is evolving that's true, but The Qur'an is not simple Arabic, and persevered on it's own way. The evidence we still have the first Qur'an written on the stone still exist till this day. I dare you to look at the Internet. It still the same 

HollyGamer said:

Did Muslim kill every person on the street, or it just one person misguided?  The fact that Muslim are killed by the Rohingya, execute on India,  prove the other way Around, Muslim always been attacked , they should be the one attacking if your idea is true then Muslim the one who always rage a war.  

You don't need every Muslim to kill someone. You just need "enough" for there to be a systemic issue of violence... And let's face it. There absolutely is a systemic issue with religious extremism and violence and thus religion should be shut down until it can reform and become better.

I don't want Islam in my country anymore than I want Christianity or Judaism or any other religion, don't think I am targeting Islam alone in this, far from it.

Then that's unrealistic, because even outside  religion context you will find many country law , rule, and ideology that allowing someone to kill or someone allow people to be punish  to death. 

Like I said Islam is perfect because it can live on old society where war is happen but at the same time it has law and rule to live in peaceful society.

For example " In Islam  We can kill animal if want to consume it, but we cannot killed the animal by torturing it". That's logical, it's funny you insist logic but at the same time you insist "Islam is not based on logic" . Or perhaps you believe that animal will die in your hand without even killed . ROFL 

HollyGamer said:

I am never said Islam always peace and love, there is some exception boundary and reason, that's why Islam can coexist with modern society. We can defend our self if it means killing people like any modern society  

The last several decades has proven it really can't.

Which one??? Elaborate more, you did not show any evidence nor any explanation when and where.   

HollyGamer said:

Ok so they can kill people in the war . :) 

You are confusing the death penalty with self defense or a countries right to self determination.

They are completely different things with completely different causes, purposes and goals.

You may need to do some research to get an understanding on the differences.

I will use you own words for islam

" you are confusing the death penalty with self defense or a religion right to self determination.

They are completely different things with completely different causes, purposes and goals.

You may need to do some research to get an understanding on the differences. " 

HollyGamer said:

My religion is not wrong, you can blame me but not my religion. The person who killed are not following the correct Islamic teaching .  The religion is perfect,  it  even help a barbaric un educated group of people living on the dessert far form civilization to be civilize, helping Europe gaining renaissance era.  When the Muslim spread on Europe . They help build the country unlike Mongol .

Prove it's not wrong. Stop using opinions and actually prove it. Go ahead, try. Please. You can do it, you got this.


The religion is far from perfect with it's hateful verses that seems to be a common theme with all abrahamic religions, they use the power of fear to subdue people to conforming to an indoctrinated way of life that I believe is incompatible with a modern, equal, highly advanced, respectful, democratic society.

Hmm, highly advance democratic??? but with this ideology   many people were killed in war under democratic ideology. 

Equal really ???  many racism happen on what so called democratic country.

Modern really ??? many woman living on modern society  wearing half cloth like primitive stone age

respectful really ??? many modern society disrespect Muslim , disrespecting Islam tradition, disrespecting way of life and  disrespecting Islamic ideology, yes even they disrespecting the prophet. The thread it self is the evidence and macron it self is the "prove" 

pathetic with this false claim that modern society can live without religion. PERIOD 

also about my prove about my religion ,   " can you prove the inside of black hole, or  prove what is beyond our universe, can you prove the theory of everything ???"

No, until now none of scientist able to prove they hypothesis about those , but does the scientist believe with their theory ??? Yes they believe. Even until know none of the theory were correct and an proven.

The same thing with Islam, you cannot just prove with limited human understanding, just because human cannot grasp the knowledge because of their small brain and small IQ does not mean is false. 

And yes Religion use the power of fear to subdue people , I agree. But you forget that  religion also use the power of reward and comfort and reasoning (at least in Islam there is punishment there is also reward and reasoning) . And all of that are very human because human cannot escaped from that thread. Human are species' that  fear of power and love reward. Human cannotesisct without that you will find that in modern society where people are afraid of loosing job, fear of not eat, fear of not love, and fear of getting into jail , fear of sick and fear of not having comfort life.

Because religion are exist for guide humanity to live in  " this world " and here after.