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Pemalite said:
HollyGamer said:

Yet what happen in France is they mocking the prophet, slandering, and ridiculed the prophet based on false accusation 

Good. They are entitled to do so.

Our job isn't to shut down people we disagree with, our job is to counter their points with sound logical reasoning and evidence.

Why they are entitled to mocking, Libeling,  Defamation  the prophet ??? Isn't the free speech cannot contain defamation, libel, and mocking,  ridiculing's or insulting a person ??? 

The problem is what happen in France is  not about critique or opinion,  but defaming , ridiculing's and insulting based on false acquisition that are not even unproven historically.  

You talk about logic and reasoning but in really insulting, mocking and defaming is what really happen and it's againts free speech.

HollyGamer said:

Not at all , I am not offended by anyone in here on this thread  , my comment is about why Macron defending free speech but at the same time what he did is not protecting free speech at all. 

Again. Free speech has a ton of restrictions.

Libel/Defamation being one such example.

Yet you don't understand that what happen in French is not frees speech, it's full of insulting, defamation to the prophet.    

HollyGamer said:

That's your opinion,  I respect that, but for me and Muslim . Religion is part of life and death. And Muslim believe there is life after death.

I don't care what Muslims or any religion believes.
There is zero evidence to support the assertion that there is life after death.

But what there is evidence for is life right now and that needs to come first.

If religion is incompatible with that, then I believe religion needs to go, life comes first, then property, then the environment, that is the hierarchy us first responders abide by.

Well you ether agree to disagree, people have right to choose, or  to believe or not, I am not here to convince you. I am just here to give you a reason we have different opinion, different faith and different believe. 

And agree there is zero evidence to support the assertion of life after death and overwhelming  evidence off life, that is indisputable and i agree. That because we are living on presents life while we are living and breathing, eating and interacting.

No one can prove life after death because no one from death able to back to life. And no one can prove if because no science able to do that based  on " human knowledge " that is limited by  "small brain ". That sometimes can be correct, but most of the times incorrect.

That's why we are not depending on "human " science alone, human are fragile, weak, can be sick, and limited by age, their small IQ, their desire and their needs. Human is not omnipotent. 

HollyGamer said:

Again this your opinion, we are not here to discuss a religion,  but moral according to their own rule. We can discuss on another thread discussing about which one is correct.

Well no. We are here to discuss religion within the context of the title and the Op.

The religious "morals" (I use that term loosely... As any religion that promotes discrimination, hate, death penalty has no morals.) are a part of the religious structure.

Which is incorrect , Islam does not promotes hates, death penalty, without any reasoning and cause. I can prove you many modern ideology is far worse than that. Tell that to Marxism and communisms . Also tell that to world war1 and world war 2 where secularism ideology lead to genocide 

The context of the OP is not about proving religion right  or not . PERIOD, make another thread 

But nice try deflecting.

HollyGamer said:

Again, this will lead to a bigger discussion, so i will end the discussion here. 

I have acknowledged that you have conceded this point due to the evidence presented.

I have a lot evidence but evidence will not able convinced people even if the evidence is right and can be proven by scientific method especially people like you who look dawn people opinion. 

And thus showing you million of evidence is useless to people like you, go outside and speak to local mosque (Masjid) and asked Muslim that living in your place 

HollyGamer said:

Again this is debatable, we are not here to discuss which one is correct way and methode 

It's really not debatable, it's logic. Again, I will acknowledge that you have conceded this point due to the evidence presented.

You talking about logic this and logic that. But there is no logic on ridiculing's Muslim and respecting other people idea. You just egoistic . If you want evidence just search more on Internet, visit local masjid, read book about  " The Bible, the Qur'an and Science: The Holy Scriptures Examined in the Light of Modern Knowledge " 

HollyGamer said:

Again this debatable but for sure, but don't forget many has been killed in the name of atheism like Marxism, and etc. 

I think you are confused.

Marxism is political and economical theories, not a religious position.

Atheism isn't actually a disbelief in a God or Gods, Atheism is about not holding a religious position because the burden of proof hasn't been met for certain religious claims.

Everyone is actually born Atheist, it's only later that indoctrination's like Islam converts them.

So basically this is a goal-post shifting logical fallacy.

I am not confused, Marxism is not just political and economical believe, it's more than that. Every law, moral, way of life  are born from ideology it can be from philosophy or from religion. All of that came from human idea. The same with Marxism where Religion is burden to people.

Atheisms is not believe in God , the prove is people like you who don't believe on greater power and omnipotent existent then human. 

This your goal shifting logical fallacy from discussing free speech to arguing about which one is the correct one. 

HollyGamer said:

Muslim has been living on non Muslim place since the day of the prophet, they spreading in China, Europe, Asia and etc. Under non Muslim ruled country  . Islam teach to respect the local rule . 

Again. I don't disagree with that.

What a short answer , yet you cannot explain and elaborate . But I am fine I am here not looking for debate. you are not importunate to waste my time for that . You can search on Internet that history of  Islam on Internet.

HollyGamer said:

Again this will create another debate out of this topic. I will end here

There is nothing to debate. There is no evidence to support your position.

There is nothing to debate because you are trying move the goal post. Stop moving the goal post Mr. moderator

HollyGamer said:

Qur'an never  changed, in fact Arabic grammatical word came from Qur'an. Before Qur'an exist the Arab did not have grammar

You keep saying this, but the evidence I have presented prior has determined that this is a lie.

you are giving me a web link yet your self are not reading  the article, Show me which part of Qur'an that has been altered? 

HollyGamer said:

Again the shia is not Muslim because they don't believe in Qur'an  but that's for another topic. They are minority who reject Islam as teaching but pretend to be Islam, but in reality they rejecting to believe of the Qur'an and prophet words, they even killing many Muslim

And I quote:
"Shia Islam is the second largest branch of Islam: as of the late 2000s, Shia Muslims constituted 10–15% of all Muslims.[10] Twelver Shia is the largest branch of Shia Islam,[11] with 2012 estimates saying that 85% of Shias were Twelvers."

They are Muslims. Meaning this is another falsehood you are trying to propogate.

Tell me how to define Muslim as a Muslim ? I am asking you because you just copied the article without knowing  " what is the meaning of Islam " and "Muslim"

For example; There are many people who can claim they are "American or US citizen" but they are not American based on US law

The same thing can be explain with the shia,

HollyGamer said:

that's not evidence at all, that just opinion  by shia. The Qur'an are still the same , the same words the same language, the same meaning unlike Bible that has been lost it's original language . The Qur'an has been translate to many language but the original Qur'an it self still preserve on original form "Arabic" . While it's true there is many dialect but the dialect never altered it's meaning and it still the same, even you can find the Qur'an that written in the stone from the prophet era. 

False. The evidence is there. Read it.

It's literally comparing different interpretations of the Qur'an. Meaning the words, language and interpretations are different.
The fact you are trying to argue this point despite the evidence shows you have a confirmation bias which is also a logical fallacy.

None of the article were correct. because Arabic is only one , alto it has many dialect the meaning are the same, even if it has Persian dialect, Moroccan dialect, Mecca  the meaning of are the same. Arabic is still Arabic. For example The words  " Kitabun " in many dialect are the same "book" . The Qur'an has it's own Arabic that are not changed. Arabic words and language  is evolving I agree and it can be proven by literation on many generation . But The Qur'an it self are not because . The Qur'an were written on it's own Qur'anic words that even the Arab did not understand until it was explained by the prophet Him self. 

Thus claiming the Qur'an has been  " changed/altered  " because "the Arabic words/language and literature  " evolving is just false and wrong.  language and literature  is evolving that's true, but The Qur'an is not simple Arabic, and persevered on it's own way. The evidence we still have the first Qur'an written on the stone still exist till this day. I dare you to look at the Internet. It still the same 

HollyGamer said:

Did Muslim kill every person on the street, or it just one person misguided?  The fact that Muslim are killed by the Rohingya, execute on India,  prove the other way Around, Muslim always been attacked , they should be the one attacking if your idea is true then Muslim the one who always rage a war.  

You don't need every Muslim to kill someone. You just need "enough" for there to be a systemic issue of violence... And let's face it. There absolutely is a systemic issue with religious extremism and violence and thus religion should be shut down until it can reform and become better.

I don't want Islam in my country anymore than I want Christianity or Judaism or any other religion, don't think I am targeting Islam alone in this, far from it.

Then that's unrealistic, because even outside  religion context you will find many country law , rule, and ideology that allowing someone to kill or someone allow people to be punish  to death. 

Like I said Islam is perfect because it can live on old society where war is happen but at the same time it has law and rule to live in peaceful society.

For example " In Islam  We can kill animal if want to consume it, but we cannot killed the animal by torturing it". That's logical, it's funny you insist logic but at the same time you insist "Islam is not based on logic" . Or perhaps you believe that animal will die in your hand without even killed . ROFL 

HollyGamer said:

I am never said Islam always peace and love, there is some exception boundary and reason, that's why Islam can coexist with modern society. We can defend our self if it means killing people like any modern society  

The last several decades has proven it really can't.

Which one??? Elaborate more, you did not show any evidence nor any explanation when and where.   

HollyGamer said:

Ok so they can kill people in the war . :) 

You are confusing the death penalty with self defense or a countries right to self determination.

They are completely different things with completely different causes, purposes and goals.

You may need to do some research to get an understanding on the differences.

I will use you own words for islam

" you are confusing the death penalty with self defense or a religion right to self determination.

They are completely different things with completely different causes, purposes and goals.

You may need to do some research to get an understanding on the differences. " 

HollyGamer said:

My religion is not wrong, you can blame me but not my religion. The person who killed are not following the correct Islamic teaching .  The religion is perfect,  it  even help a barbaric un educated group of people living on the dessert far form civilization to be civilize, helping Europe gaining renaissance era.  When the Muslim spread on Europe . They help build the country unlike Mongol .

Prove it's not wrong. Stop using opinions and actually prove it. Go ahead, try. Please. You can do it, you got this.

The religion is far from perfect with it's hateful verses that seems to be a common theme with all abrahamic religions, they use the power of fear to subdue people to conforming to an indoctrinated way of life that I believe is incompatible with a modern, equal, highly advanced, respectful, democratic society.

Hmm, highly advance democratic??? but with this ideology   many people were killed in war under democratic ideology. 

Equal really ???  many racism happen on what so called democratic country.

Modern really ??? many woman living on modern society  wearing half cloth like primitive stone age

respectful really ??? many modern society disrespect Muslim , disrespecting Islam tradition, disrespecting way of life and  disrespecting Islamic ideology, yes even they disrespecting the prophet. The thread it self is the evidence and macron it self is the "prove" 

pathetic with this false claim that modern society can live without religion. PERIOD 

also about my prove about my religion ,   " can you prove the inside of black hole, or  prove what is beyond our universe, can you prove the theory of everything ???"

No, until now none of scientist able to prove they hypothesis about those , but does the scientist believe with their theory ??? Yes they believe. Even until know none of the theory were correct and an proven.

The same thing with Islam, you cannot just prove with limited human understanding, just because human cannot grasp the knowledge because of their small brain and small IQ does not mean is false. 

And yes Religion use the power of fear to subdue people , I agree. But you forget that  religion also use the power of reward and comfort and reasoning (at least in Islam there is punishment there is also reward and reasoning) . And all of that are very human because human cannot escaped from that thread. Human are species' that  fear of power and love reward. Human cannotesisct without that you will find that in modern society where people are afraid of loosing job, fear of not eat, fear of not love, and fear of getting into jail , fear of sick and fear of not having comfort life.

Because religion are exist for guide humanity to live in  " this world " and here after.