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Forums - Sports Discussion - 2022 NBA Offseason - Rest in Peace Bill Russell

Not only isn't Steph Curry a top ten player he also isn't that revolutionary. Jerry West was Steph Curry before Steph Curry but was a better overall player. Since he was a better scorer (without the aid of a tree point line), passer, clutch player, rebounder and defender plus he could play at the point and off-guard position and at small forward.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerry_West

If you have Curry in your top ten but don't have Jerry West in it, you are pretty much clueless when it comes to the NBA and basketball.



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LOL at the New York Knicks they made all of today's trades to try to get Jalen Brunson. No wonder they haven't won a title since 1973 they keep on making bone headed moves that don't improve the team.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfplWwoRR6w



Chris Hu said:
Chrkeller said:

Shaq played exclusively in the paint.  He didn't handle the ball, shoot mid range nor hit 3 pointers.  He was a god awful foul shooter.  His field goal was high because all he did was dunk.  He was one dimensional and an all time great.  Your argument is weak at best.  Because while Shaq was one dimensional he was dominant and an all time great.  Winning matters, Curry wins.

Also there is no need to be rude.

All centers during Shaq's era pretty much got all their points in the paint.  Shaq also made three NBA defensive second teams.  Curry never even came close to making a first of second all defensive team.

Moving goalposts.  Shaq is one dimensional.  Being one dimensional doesn't mean anything.

As for Steph, he is an all time great, regardless if he is top 15 or top 10.  



Chris Hu said:
Chrkeller said:

Shaq played exclusively in the paint.  He didn't handle the ball, shoot mid range nor hit 3 pointers.  He was a god awful foul shooter.  His field goal was high because all he did was dunk.  He was one dimensional and an all time great.  Your argument is weak at best.  Because while Shaq was one dimensional he was dominant and an all time great.  Winning matters, Curry wins.

Also there is no need to be rude.

All centers during Shaq's era pretty much got all their points in the paint.  Shaq also made three NBA defensive second teams.  Curry never even came close to making a first of second all defensive team.

Magic Johnson never made an All NBA Defensive team in his career and his jump shot was inconsistent. He was strictly a floor general and the vast majority of his scoring came off layups, dunks, and transition offense. So in a sense, he was one dimensional. Is Magic not a Top 10 player?

Jerry West (I assume the Mitch Richmond example didn't work out? Why am I not surprised?) played in an era where there were only 8 teams in his rookie year and 17 teams in his final year. Not 30 like today. And only 6-8 teams made the playoffs. Not 16 teams (not counting the Play-In tournament) The level of competition was MUCH smaller and nowhere near as diverse as it is now. You think ANY team in ANY sport, let alone the modern NBA, will come close to winning 8 straight or 11 in 13 years like Bill Russell's Celtics did back then? There's a reason why no team in any sport has been able to 3-peat since the Shaq/Kobe Lakers and the one team that came the closest to doing it since was... the Golden State Warriors... The team Steph plays for and was built around HIM. Three titles in a row seems so far fetched in today's league. 8 in a row? 11 in 13 years? Forget about it! Same goes for a player averaging 50 and 26 while playing all every minute of every game like Wilt Chamberlain did. 

Seeing as how you were the one who brought up the "If he played in this era" narrative. You think that 60s Celtics team still wins 8 in a row if the competition back then was a diverse and as fierce as it is now where we have elite, superstar players from all over the world? Russell, Wilt, Jerry, and Oscar would still be great players, but they would struggle and they wouldn't have the same level of success just because it's more taxing and demanding to play in today's league and competition compared to back then. 

And even with that lack of competition back then, Jerry is a whopping 1-8 in NBA Finals appearances. Winning matters and Jerry certainly didn't win nearly enough to warrant a place in a Top 10 over many of his peers or successors who all accomplished and did more than him. Even with Wilt Chamberlain and Elgin Baylor on his team for two of those trips and Game 7 on his home floor for the first one, they STILL couldn't beat an old, aging Celtics team or a hobbled Knicks team with their All Star center injured. 

You're so fixated on stats that I genuinely question if you've ever actually seen a game or if you even take a moment to stop and think about the context behind all those stats you love to pull.



You really do change goalpost a lot. Curry's not a bad defender. He used to be more of a reliability early on, but as of the last few years he's been pretty good. You should look at his defensive ratings during these playoffs. Speaking of Shaq, do you know who his favorite player during the modern era??

If Curry's not in your top 10, that's fine, but stop trying to argue with others why he not actually that good because it makes you look foolish. Everyone pretty much agrees Curry is revolutionary to the modern era of basketball, and you saying he isn't tells me you probably haven't played a pick up game in a very long time.



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Chrkeller said:
Chris Hu said:

All centers during Shaq's era pretty much got all their points in the paint.  Shaq also made three NBA defensive second teams.  Curry never even came close to making a first of second all defensive team.

Moving goalposts.  Shaq is one dimensional.  Being one dimensional doesn't mean anything.

As for Steph, he is an all time great, regardless if he is top 15 or top 10.  

How is Shaq one dimensional when he was great at both offense and defense.



Since you guys are clueless here is a video that explains how great West was.



PAOerfulone said:
Chris Hu said:

All centers during Shaq's era pretty much got all their points in the paint.  Shaq also made three NBA defensive second teams.  Curry never even came close to making a first of second all defensive team.

Magic Johnson never made an All NBA Defensive team in his career and his jump shot was inconsistent. He was strictly a floor general and the vast majority of his scoring came off layups, dunks, and transition offense. So in a sense, he was one dimensional. Is Magic not a Top 10 player?

Jerry West (I assume the Mitch Richmond example didn't work out? Why am I not surprised?) played in an era where there were only 8 teams in his rookie year and 17 teams in his final year. Not 30 like today. And only 6-8 teams made the playoffs. Not 16 teams (not counting the Play-In tournament) The level of competition was MUCH smaller and nowhere near as diverse as it is now. You think ANY team in ANY sport, let alone the modern NBA, will come close to winning 8 straight or 11 in 13 years like Bill Russell's Celtics did back then? There's a reason why no team in any sport has been able to 3-peat since the Shaq/Kobe Lakers and the one team that came the closest to doing it since was... the Golden State Warriors... The team Steph plays for and was built around HIM. Three titles in a row seems so far fetched in today's league. 8 in a row? 11 in 13 years? Forget about it! Same goes for a player averaging 50 and 26 while playing all every minute of every game like Wilt Chamberlain did. 

Seeing as how you were the one who brought up the "If he played in this era" narrative. You think that 60s Celtics team still wins 8 in a row if the competition back then was a diverse and as fierce as it is now where we have elite, superstar players from all over the world? Russell, Wilt, Jerry, and Oscar would still be great players, but they would struggle and they wouldn't have the same level of success just because it's more taxing and demanding to play in today's league and competition compared to back then. 

And even with that lack of competition back then, Jerry is a whopping 1-8 in NBA Finals appearances. Winning matters and Jerry certainly didn't win nearly enough to warrant a place in a Top 10 over many of his peers or successors who all accomplished and did more than him. Even with Wilt Chamberlain and Elgin Baylor on his team for two of those trips and Game 7 on his home floor for the first one, they STILL couldn't beat an old, aging Celtics team or a hobbled Knicks team with their All Star center injured. 

You're so fixated on stats that I genuinely question if you've ever actually seen a game or if you even take a moment to stop and think about the context behind all those stats you love to pull.

Actually, you are completely wrong it was way more taxing to play in the 60s than it is today teams didn't have charter planes to get them from game to game they didn't have elite trainers and assistant coaches plus most of the player had jobs in the off seasons so they couldn't focus on being in elite playing shape 365 days of the year.  And on top of all that most of the players played a lot more minutes per game than they do now.

NBA & ABA Single Season Leaders and Records for Minutes Played | Basketball-Reference.com



Chris Hu said:
PAOerfulone said:

Magic Johnson never made an All NBA Defensive team in his career and his jump shot was inconsistent. He was strictly a floor general and the vast majority of his scoring came off layups, dunks, and transition offense. So in a sense, he was one dimensional. Is Magic not a Top 10 player?

Jerry West (I assume the Mitch Richmond example didn't work out? Why am I not surprised?) played in an era where there were only 8 teams in his rookie year and 17 teams in his final year. Not 30 like today. And only 6-8 teams made the playoffs. Not 16 teams (not counting the Play-In tournament) The level of competition was MUCH smaller and nowhere near as diverse as it is now. You think ANY team in ANY sport, let alone the modern NBA, will come close to winning 8 straight or 11 in 13 years like Bill Russell's Celtics did back then? There's a reason why no team in any sport has been able to 3-peat since the Shaq/Kobe Lakers and the one team that came the closest to doing it since was... the Golden State Warriors... The team Steph plays for and was built around HIM. Three titles in a row seems so far fetched in today's league. 8 in a row? 11 in 13 years? Forget about it! Same goes for a player averaging 50 and 26 while playing all every minute of every game like Wilt Chamberlain did. 

Seeing as how you were the one who brought up the "If he played in this era" narrative. You think that 60s Celtics team still wins 8 in a row if the competition back then was a diverse and as fierce as it is now where we have elite, superstar players from all over the world? Russell, Wilt, Jerry, and Oscar would still be great players, but they would struggle and they wouldn't have the same level of success just because it's more taxing and demanding to play in today's league and competition compared to back then. 

And even with that lack of competition back then, Jerry is a whopping 1-8 in NBA Finals appearances. Winning matters and Jerry certainly didn't win nearly enough to warrant a place in a Top 10 over many of his peers or successors who all accomplished and did more than him. Even with Wilt Chamberlain and Elgin Baylor on his team for two of those trips and Game 7 on his home floor for the first one, they STILL couldn't beat an old, aging Celtics team or a hobbled Knicks team with their All Star center injured. 

You're so fixated on stats that I genuinely question if you've ever actually seen a game or if you even take a moment to stop and think about the context behind all those stats you love to pull.

Actually, you are completely wrong it was way more taxing to play in the 60s than it is today teams didn't have charter planes to get them from game to game they didn't have elite trainers and assistant coaches plus most of the player had jobs in the off seasons so they couldn't focus on being in elite playing shape 365 days of the year.  And on top of all that most of the players played a lot more minutes per game than they do now.

NBA & ABA Single Season Leaders and Records for Minutes Played | Basketball-Reference.com

Watched the video: And I got... Stats. Stats. And more stats. I don't know what I was expecting considering it was you who shared it and stats are all you seem to care about.

For starters, I consider West a SG, not a PG. Either way, I would still rank him 3rd behind Magic and Steph (PG) or MJ and Kobe (SG).

Secondly, again, he played in a league with 8-17 teams throughout his career and the average skill level and competition was MUCH lower than it is now. How many of those role players and bench warmers will make the league today with how many players come in from college, Europe, and South America, and all corners of the world. What could Leroy Ellis, the Lakers' starting Center in 1966, possibly do against guys like Gobert, KAT, and Adebayo, let alone Giannis, Embiid, or Jokic? Athleticism, conditioning, training regime, game planning, preparation, and overall talent pool are leaps and bounds above what they were back then. Your second point just emphasizes that! All those role players who had jobs in the off season and didn't have access to elite training and coaching back then, they wouldn't hack it in today's league, which supports my point that the competition today is much stronger and harder than it was back then. Since you were the one who brought up the "If they played in this era narrative?" Outside of the greatest players of that era (Russell, Wilt, West, Oscar, Elgin Baylor, etc.) Who could honestly hack it in today's league or even the 90s or 2000s before the worldwide talent started catching up to the U.S.? Again: You need to consider the context of the stats before you post them because stats alone do not tell the entire story.

For example: PACE OF PLAY. The pace of play was A LOT faster in the 60s than even today. Which means teams and players got A LOT more possessions and shots up per game. In the 13 years that Steph has been in the league from the '09-'10 season to the '21-'22 season, the average Pace Per Game is 95.6. In Jerry West's last season, the first season where pace of play was measured, the average pace of play was 107.8! That's 12.2 more possessions per game! And the further back you go from here to that season, especially as you go back through the 80s and late 70s, the pace gets noticeably higher and higher.

Don't believe me? Let's look at those stats you love to post so much.

2020's Pace ('20-'21 - '21-22 seasons): 98.7
2010's Pace ('10-'11 - '19-'20 seasons): 95.3
2000's Pace ('00-'01 - '09-'10 seasons): 91.32
1990's Pace ('90-'91 - '99-'00 seasons): 93.34
1980's Pace ('80-'81 - '89-'90 seasons): 101.07
1970's Pace ('73-'74 - '79-'80 seasons): 105.7

The further back we go from the 2000s backwards, the pace gets progressively faster and faster. So imagine how many more possessions and SHOTS in a game their were in the 60s before they started measuring it? Playing on at a very fast pace on top of playing a lot of minutes, OF COURSE some of these guys put up these absurd numbers. If LeBron or Russell Westbrook played in the league back then, they'd average a triple double every season!

If you want to post all these stats, go right ahead. But context matters. Just like WINNING matters. And once again, Jerry, hell of a player, (which is why I have him ranked 13th behind Hakeem and Shaq.) But he did not accomplish or WIN as much as his peers and successors. I guarantee, Jerry would have traded 5 PPG and 2-3 All NBA selections for 2-3 rings. 

Stats might be useful, but they never tell the entire story by themselves because each era is different and the game constantly changes and EVOLVES. And as the game changes, the stats change too.

Last edited by PAOerfulone - on 25 June 2022

Jerry West got to the NBA finals with three different head coaches which is more impressive than winning four with one the best head coaches of all time who learned a lot from the greatest head coach of all time Phil Jackson. In the NFL Peyton Manning getting to the Super Bowl with four different head coaches and winning two of them is more impressive than Montana and Bradshaw winning four Super Bowls not to mention he ended up with more than enough stats to easily be the second-best quarterback of all time behind Tom Brady. I also consider West a shooting guard that being said he actually played point guard during the final years of his career and is a way better passer than Steph ever was. Steph plays the point but is undersized shooting guard or combo guard and is an average passer at best since he never even came close to leading the league in assists. Jerry West was an above average passer and even an elite passer in three out of his last four season he played since he averaged 9.5 assists in 70-71, 9.7 assists in 71-72, and 8.8 in 72-73. Also, forgot to mention that Jerry West was a way better finisher than Curry also since he got to free throw line over twice as much per game.