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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Phil Spencer Says Xbox Series X Games Aren't Being Held Back By Xbox One

Azzanation said:
SvennoJ said:

That's not what next gen game play is about, bells and whistles.

Can you agree that there is a difference between games made for VR and games ported to VR? And that games made for VR lose a lot or can't be ported down to non VR?

That's what I expect from next gen game play. Worlds that weren't possible on the previous generation, either through lack of memory, lack of processing speed, lack of online capabilities, lack of input methods or lack of storage options / speed.

Next gen has about a 30x to 50x faster read/write access, a bigger jump than the increase in processing power from ps2 to ps3. So yep, it's disappointing to read that games will continue to be designed with 1/30th of the IO speed in mind. All these new possibilities, however the biggest change, don't use that to design your game around!

I want it to be different from buying into PC gaming.

Current gen is leaps and bounds better than last gen and yet it took the middle years before we saw games blowing the doors off for this generation. Titanfall was one of the best games around the launch of these consoles which shows that innovation didn't come in terms of hardware, it came in terms of game design. Which is exactly my point. PS4 offered Bloodborne, a game that is designed identically to all its predecessors, nothing next gen about it aside from its graphics (Bells and Whistles) Same can be said with Infamous Second Son, a game that didn't require PS4 hardware to make, it plays like the original games with again, all its (Bells and Whistles) which is what makes them stand out. This gen, you have been playing games that didn't require next gen hardware to be created for you to enjoy the games. 

Weather you agree with the decision of Phil's comments does not change the fact that its what they are focusing on. Go buy a PC game like RE2Remake, run it with its lowest settings, than play it again with everything turned on and you will see major differences. That is what Phil is saying. XSX is for those who want the ultimate versions of the games, and it will also be doing next gen games as well, because 3rd party games have the freedom to go with current or next gen designs. If you don't want to buy a XSX or are not interested in the games on it, than just don't, its pretty simple. The system is not for you.

I play a lot of Switch games and i cannot complain, Switch games are amazing and the last thing i think about when playing those games is the visuals, i just love the gameplay Nintendo offers me. Lets see how Halo Infinite looks at this event because that's designed around the XB1 and will see how disappointing it will look in your eyes.

Current gen is just as much limited by 5400 rpm HDD as last gen. There was zero improvement in random access speed. So yep, we mostly got bells and whistles this gen, but still some actual game play improvements thanks to ram increase (see my previous post).

Developers could have been preparing for next gen for years already by making game engines optimized for SSD. PCs have those for years but developers won't restrict their games to only be run from the fastest SSDs. (Unless your Star Citizen)

I'm starting to think gamers play games because of a lack of imagination lol. Leaving HDDs behind is a god send for game design, yet all I hear people come up with is scale able graphics, native 4K 60/120 FPS, ray tracing. What does that have to do with game play. (Well ray tracing offers some game play opportunities with reflections and light. 4K 120 FPS, not so much)



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SvennoJ said:

Current gen is just as much limited by 5400 rpm HDD as last gen. There was zero improvement in random access speed. So yep, we mostly got bells and whistles this gen, but still some actual game play improvements thanks to ram increase (see my previous post).

Developers could have been preparing for next gen for years already by making game engines optimized for SSD. PCs have those for years but developers won't restrict their games to only be run from the fastest SSDs. (Unless your Star Citizen)

I'm starting to think gamers play games because of a lack of imagination lol. Leaving HDDs behind is a god send for game design, yet all I hear people come up with is scale able graphics, native 4K 60/120 FPS, ray tracing. What does that have to do with game play. (Well ray tracing offers some game play opportunities with reflections and light. 4K 120 FPS, not so much)

No one is denying the advancements in technology. Advance and new tech is always a great thing to have however you don't need super fast SSDs to make great games.

I believe you have it the other way around, imagination comes from developers not hardware, as i mention before, its up to the developers if they believe there games requires tech advancements. Everyone is talking about next gen and the improvements in AI due to the CPU increase in the Series X and PS5.. yet AI wasn't an issue on the N64 which has games running better AI than whats running on CPUs light years ahead of its time. It falls on the developers and there investment into there own game designs.

It also doesn't matter how many devs utilize the new hardware, gamers will still be flocking to games like Fortnite and Minecraft and the next big thing etc. If some games need advancements in tech to be made, than that's why we have games like Crysis and Star Citizen, however a game like Command & Conquer Remaster does not need a super fast SSD to be fun. In fact the new Age of Empires 4 game due out soon is the same. 

I brought a PC because i wanted to play the current games better, not crossing my fingers hoping games use my hardware to create new ideas. I just enjoy playing games especially older games like Half Life 1 with more graphic options, i don't need them to redesign the entire thing to remove corridors in my games. If the game is fun than it doesn't matter to me.



SvennoJ said:
chakkra said:


What exactly have FPS games on PS4/X1 better than HL2 besides better graphics?

Bigger more interactive worlds. Tlou2 has vastly bigger environments than HL2 which you can even get lost in. So much more detail to hide in and hide traps / enemies is. You can't hide and crawl through tall grass in HL2 for example. Lighting plays a huge part in visibility and remaining hidden.

So TLOU2 is a first-person-shooter now?

You are mixing up game design with technical abilities.

In HL2 you are fighting the enemies straight on with a crowbar or a gun  instead of hiding in the grass like a rat.
You didn't hide behind walls like that coward Marcus Fenix either.

Nevertheless even back then lighting and staying in shadows was possible in sneaking games like Splinter Cell or Thief: Deadly Shadows... and it worked fine even on an Original Xbox.

SvennoJ said:
chakkra said:


What exactly have puzzle games on PS4/X1 better than Portal 2 besides better graphics?

Games like Infinifactory are not possible at that scale on PS3. This already has trouble chugging along on ps4 pro

These are the requirements for Infinifactory:

Impossible on PS3 with reduced graphics compared to PS4? I don't think so.



SvennoJ said:
Azzanation said:

Current gen is leaps and bounds better than last gen and yet it took the middle years before we saw games blowing the doors off for this generation. Titanfall was one of the best games around the launch of these consoles which shows that innovation didn't come in terms of hardware, it came in terms of game design. Which is exactly my point. PS4 offered Bloodborne, a game that is designed identically to all its predecessors, nothing next gen about it aside from its graphics (Bells and Whistles) Same can be said with Infamous Second Son, a game that didn't require PS4 hardware to make, it plays like the original games with again, all its (Bells and Whistles) which is what makes them stand out. This gen, you have been playing games that didn't require next gen hardware to be created for you to enjoy the games. 

Weather you agree with the decision of Phil's comments does not change the fact that its what they are focusing on. Go buy a PC game like RE2Remake, run it with its lowest settings, than play it again with everything turned on and you will see major differences. That is what Phil is saying. XSX is for those who want the ultimate versions of the games, and it will also be doing next gen games as well, because 3rd party games have the freedom to go with current or next gen designs. If you don't want to buy a XSX or are not interested in the games on it, than just don't, its pretty simple. The system is not for you.

I play a lot of Switch games and i cannot complain, Switch games are amazing and the last thing i think about when playing those games is the visuals, i just love the gameplay Nintendo offers me. Lets see how Halo Infinite looks at this event because that's designed around the XB1 and will see how disappointing it will look in your eyes.

Current gen is just as much limited by 5400 rpm HDD as last gen. There was zero improvement in random access speed. So yep, we mostly got bells and whistles this gen, but still some actual game play improvements thanks to ram increase (see my previous post).

Developers could have been preparing for next gen for years already by making game engines optimized for SSD. PCs have those for years but developers won't restrict their games to only be run from the fastest SSDs. (Unless your Star Citizen)

I'm starting to think gamers play games because of a lack of imagination lol. Leaving HDDs behind is a god send for game design, yet all I hear people come up with is scale able graphics, native 4K 60/120 FPS, ray tracing. What does that have to do with game play. (Well ray tracing offers some game play opportunities with reflections and light. 4K 120 FPS, not so much)

Totally agree. 4k and 120fps Might sound amazing but once we see games that are going for an actual generational leap at 1440p/30fps, playing current gen games at 120fps will look pretty boring in comparison. That's why nobody got excited about seeing something like Dirt 5.

It's strange that a lot of people don't seem to realize that you can take any 30fps current gen game, boost the framerate to 120fps and you're pretty much maxing out these next gen consoles already.



Azzanation said:
SvennoJ said:

Current gen is just as much limited by 5400 rpm HDD as last gen. There was zero improvement in random access speed. So yep, we mostly got bells and whistles this gen, but still some actual game play improvements thanks to ram increase (see my previous post).

Developers could have been preparing for next gen for years already by making game engines optimized for SSD. PCs have those for years but developers won't restrict their games to only be run from the fastest SSDs. (Unless your Star Citizen)

I'm starting to think gamers play games because of a lack of imagination lol. Leaving HDDs behind is a god send for game design, yet all I hear people come up with is scale able graphics, native 4K 60/120 FPS, ray tracing. What does that have to do with game play. (Well ray tracing offers some game play opportunities with reflections and light. 4K 120 FPS, not so much)

No one is denying the advancements in technology. Advance and new tech is always a great thing to have however you don't need super fast SSDs to make great games.

I believe you have it the other way around, imagination comes from developers not hardware, as i mention before, its up to the developers if they believe there games requires tech advancements. Everyone is talking about next gen and the improvements in AI due to the CPU increase in the Series X and PS5.. yet AI wasn't an issue on the N64 which has games running better AI than whats running on CPUs light years ahead of its time. It falls on the developers and there investment into there own game designs.

It also doesn't matter how many devs utilize the new hardware, gamers will still be flocking to games like Fortnite and Minecraft and the next big thing etc. If some games need advancements in tech to be made, than that's why we have games like Crysis and Star Citizen, however a game like Command & Conquer Remaster does not need a super fast SSD to be fun. In fact the new Age of Empires 4 game due out soon is the same. 

I brought a PC because i wanted to play the current games better, not crossing my fingers hoping games use my hardware to create new ideas. I just enjoy playing games especially older games like Half Life 1 with more graphic options, i don't need them to redesign the entire thing to remove corridors in my games. If the game is fun than it doesn't matter to me.

You do realize Fortnite and Minecraft weren't possible before their time, and it's only hardware / tech advancements that made these games possible. Fortnite and Minecraft are game play advancements, Crisis and Star Citizen are mostly graphical advancements.

Age of Empires 4 can benefit greatly from SSD. No memory limits to building / alterations. 200 player battle royale on a Earth size map. Near instant jump to any part of the map loading in the needed detail. Cloud computing to keep track of everyone's armies. Instead we'll probably just get AoE 2 with better graphics.

It's good for you you enjoy older games at higher res or the same old game play in higher fidelity. I love new experiences, hence only playing VR for well over a year.

You can always keep buying a PC to enjoy games at higher res/fps. But wouldn't it be nice to have new games unlocked from the constraints of slow HDDs. And traditional games will continue to be made. Heck we're practically drowning in retro games nowadays. And I greatly enjoyed streets of rage 4 as well. However, variety is the spice of life. New experiences is what keeps me interested in gaming. If it wasn't for VR, this gen would have been rather mediocre.



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Conina said:
SvennoJ said:

So TLOU2 is a first-person-shooter now?

You are mixing up game design with technical abilities.

In HL2 you are fighting the enemies straight on with a crowbar or a gun  instead of hiding in the grass like a rat.
You didn't hide behind walls like that coward Marcus Fenix either.

Nevertheless even back then lighting and staying in shadows was possible in sneaking games like Splinter Cell or Thief: Deadly Shadows... and it worked fine even on an Original Xbox.

SvennoJ said:

These are the requirements for Infinifactory:

Impossible on PS3 with reduced graphics compared to PS4? I don't think so.

The ps3 had 512 MB of ram, only half of that available for working system RAM. And as I said, it's already chugging along on ps4 pro in the later levels. Plus I don't see a Switch version.

You honestly believe PS3 can do this?


(Two different versions of the same puzzle, complete freedom in how to approach it)



SvennoJ said:

Current gen is just as much limited by 5400 rpm HDD as last gen. There was zero improvement in random access speed. So yep, we mostly got bells and whistles this gen, but still some actual game play improvements thanks to ram increase (see my previous post).

Wrong again.

In the last gen mandatory HDD installs were the exception, not the rule.

Most Xbox 360 and PS3 games had to load most of the data from the optical disc (DVD or Blu-ray):

The Xbox 360 had a 12x DVD drive, so sequential max. speed 15.8 MB/s with abysmal seeking speeds compared to 5400 rpm HDD.

The PS3 had a 2x Blu-ray drive, so sequential max. speed 8.6 MB/s with abysmal seeking speeds compared to 5400 rpm HDD.



SvennoJ said:

The ps3 had 512 MB of ram, only half of that available for working system RAM. And as I said, it's already chugging along on ps4 pro in the later levels. Plus I don't see a Switch version.

You honestly believe PS3 can do this?


(Two different versions of the same puzzle, complete freedom in how to approach it)

Moving a few hundred simple geometric objects on simple paths? Why shouldn't the PS3 be able to do that?

It handled much more complex games. It also handled games like GTA V and TLoU with its 512 MB RAM.

And that game would be a good fit for the Switch... wouldn't surprise me if it gets ported next year.

Last edited by Conina - on 12 July 2020

goopy20 said:
sales2099 said:

Couldn’t resist, your posts too juicy to ignore. 

Short answer: Sure it does. But it depends on the game design. Linear games, racing games, fighting games etc, not so much. Vast open world games I can imagine old hardware cant do as much detail in the scenery or draw distances etc. But even then you build high you can scale down like we saw in Witcher 3 for Switch. Scaling up then 100% old holds back new. I mean it would have to be a design choice so unique that it wouldn’t be possible to replicate, like the Ratchet and Clank quick loading of levels. 

Why not support for the full 9 years? Because gamers move on. Don’t see many core gamers still using Xbox 360 and PS3 in 2020. If old hardware has a market like Switch (not old per se but underpowered) then of course devs will do what they can to scale down: 

End of day we all know year 1-2 exclusives never take as much advantage as late gen games. That’s just a fact. Might as well take care of the late adopters at the same time. I see it as win win. 

Of course it all depends on what kind of game they're making. If it's a 2D platformer then yeah, its not going to be pushing SSD and those 12Tflops. The cool thing with next gen consoles is that developers can think about completely new and vastly more ambitious game concepts when they specifically target next gen consoles. 

Historically speaking we typically don't see the big ip's coming out in the first 1 or 2 years. That doesn't mean early games can't potentially take full advantage of the hardware, though. Killzone SF and something like the Order 1886 still look pretty darn good today, they just weren't great games. But what is stopping GG from turning HZW into a next gen showcase early on?

You are just talking about a graphics bump. The only next gen PS5 game I saw from a design perspective was Ratchet. The rest are all just a graphics bump. Series X can do that too even if they are cross gen. And it’s 20% stronger so that should help compensate.

Perhaps wait till the 23rd to see what games are falling outside the cross gen window. 



Xbox: Best hardware, Game Pass best value, best BC, more 1st party genres and multiplayer titles. 

 

goopy20 said:
SvennoJ said:

Current gen is just as much limited by 5400 rpm

I'm starting to think gamers play games because of a lack of imagination lol. Leaving HDDs behind is a god send for game design, yet all I hear people come up with is scale able graphics, native 4K 60/120 FPS, ray tracing. What does that have to do with game play. (Well ray tracing offers some game play opportunities with reflections and light. 4K 120 FPS, not so much)

Totally agree. 4k and 120fps Might sound amazing but once we see games that are going for an actual generational leap at 1440p/30fps, playing current gen games at 120fps will look pretty boring in comparison. That's why nobody got excited about seeing something like Dirt 5.

It's strange that a lot of people don't seem to realize that you can take any 30fps current gen game, boost the framerate to 120fps and you're pretty much maxing out these next gen consoles already.

Well that’s your narrative. I say Ps5 is holding back progress because the specs won’t allow for it. If Series X can hit any combination of 4K and 60fps AND provide a next gen graphics bump then that’s clear to me who’s actually trying to be next gen. Remember it’s 20% stronger so everything helps. 
As much as 30% when PS5 isn’t overclocking. Remember Series X is built to be consistent all the time.

It’s funny it should be like 2013 except I’m the smug PS fan who’s bragging about 1080p and you are supposed to be the Xbox guy being defensive saying 900p isn’t so bad. I am genuinely amazed the narrative is able to change to “1440p/30 FPS is next gen so long as I get my graphics bump”.

Hopefully the July show will help shift the narrative back to where it belongs because I know MS can do both. They can hit benchmarks and make their games look great. Because they have the hardware to do it, not using their PR and fans to justify lower expectations. 

Last edited by sales2099 - on 12 July 2020

Xbox: Best hardware, Game Pass best value, best BC, more 1st party genres and multiplayer titles.