Forums - Sports Discussion - Transgender and sports

sundin13 said:
DonFerrari said:

We may lack more data, but when I see that when they were male these athletes were below average but after transitioning and even when taking in count all the elements transexual advocates on sports mention (like hormone therapy, time in that therapy, etc), these athletes just suddenly become top in class. And what is often pointed is that even though that person have hormone level like a woman and have been transitioned for several years their infancy and formation of their body (bone density, muscle density, etc) was already benefitted a lot.

The data is scarce, but what data we do have available doesn't indicate that transgender individual have a significant advantage after transitioning.

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/07/scientist-racing-discover-how-gender-transitions-alter-athletic-performance-including

And how would we then explain that athletes that have competed for several years as male were below average but after transition became top players? And as put by someone here for marathon (mainly swimming) female have a much closer times to male than on any other competitive sport;



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DonFerrari said:
sundin13 said:

The data is scarce, but what data we do have available doesn't indicate that transgender individual have a significant advantage after transitioning.

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/07/scientist-racing-discover-how-gender-transitions-alter-athletic-performance-including

And how would we then explain that athletes that have competed for several years as male were below average but after transition became top players? And as put by someone here for marathon (mainly swimming) female have a much closer times to male than on any other competitive sport;

Depends on the specific example.



I feel like if you're trans and an athlete you should be able to play sports with the gender you now identify as.



jason1637 said:
I feel like if you're trans and an athlete you should be able to play sports with the gender you now identify as.

That's going to make it hard for those born female to compete. 

In cases where people are segregated due to gender, I'm all for (in most cases) people being grouped according to how they identify.  When people are segregated based on physical characteristics, then I don't think that makes sense.  Allowing a male who has not transitioned to compete would completely defeat the purpose of women's sports.  If someone has transitioned, then that may be alright, if the data shows their advantage has been mitigated.



JWeinCom said:
jason1637 said:
I feel like if you're trans and an athlete you should be able to play sports with the gender you now identify as.

That's going to make it hard for those born female to compete. 

In cases where people are segregated due to gender, I'm all for (in most cases) people being grouped according to how they identify.  When people are segregated based on physical characteristics, then I don't think that makes sense.  Allowing a male who has not transitioned to compete would completely defeat the purpose of women's sports.  If someone has transitioned, then that may be alright, if the data shows their advantage has been mitigated.

As a gamer my response to these people is "get good"

Edit: I'm talking specifically about people who have gone through the transition. 



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JWeinCom said:
jason1637 said:
I feel like if you're trans and an athlete you should be able to play sports with the gender you now identify as.

That's going to make it hard for those born female to compete. 

In cases where people are segregated due to gender, I'm all for (in most cases) people being grouped according to how they identify.  When people are segregated based on physical characteristics, then I don't think that makes sense.  Allowing a male who has not transitioned to compete would completely defeat the purpose of women's sports.  If someone has transitioned, then that may be alright, if the data shows their advantage has been mitigated.

Totally. Trans people, particularly males who transitioned to become females, should be able to compete without problems once they demonstrate that they don't have significant advantages over other female competitors. 

But from what I understand, it's hard to properly level down a transitioned female. Some things from the male buildup never go away, which make this whole ordeal more complicated. Don't know which things specifically but it's no wonder several trans women are successful in their carreers. 



Not a fan of this at all. It's unfair to biological women to make them compete against people who were born men, as males simply have more muscle mass and can maintain more muscle mass even after hormone therapy. We've now seen multiple examples of trans women who were allowed to compete against biological women and utterly dominated them. Trans women should be in a league of their own.

As for trans men, I honestly have no idea how fair that is as we have seen few examples of trans men competing against biological men so far. 



shikamaru317 said:

Not a fan of this at all. It's unfair to biological women to make them compete against people who were born men, as males simply have more muscle mass and can maintain more muscle mass even after hormone therapy. We've now seen multiple examples of trans women who were allowed to compete against biological women and utterly dominated them. Trans women should be in a league of their own.

As for trans men, I honestly have no idea how fair that is as we have seen few examples of trans men competing against biological men so far. 

Competitions are inherently unfair, especially physical ones. Some people are just naturally born with more athletic features and advantages. Also, considering the harassment, trauma, discrimination, etc. trans people receive, as well as the costs associated with transitioning, the chance that someone is transitioning specifically to have an advantage in competition is miniscule.

Trans men are men and trans women are women.



 

DonFerrari said:

...

But one thing that haven't saw a famous case yet is a former female athlete that have transitioned to be a trans male athlete and became a powerhouse at the sport. Do anyone heard a famous case?

...

Well DUH!

You'll find that men tend to have lots of physical advantages over women, ranging from (a lot) more natural muscle tissue to just tending to be taller and lots of other obvious stuff we all know good and well just from living in the world. These characteristics provide men with, on average, real and meaningful advantages in both strength and speed. I mean yeah, there are some exceptions, some men who do nothing to develop and hone any of that, and some women who work their asses off to build themselves up, but this is the rule and it's clear enough for all of us to be able to readily observe it. There is no amount of gender identification or artificial testosterone reduction that's ever plausibly going to truly level nature's fundamentally unequal playing field. When men (by which here I mean biological males) participate in women's sport, they tend to have a natural and unfair advantage. That's just a fact. This becomes especially significant in contact sports like American football or rugby or mixed martial arts, for example, where the difference between single-sex and unisex competitions could be measured not just in trophy allocations, but in broken bones.

Conversely, when women participate in men's sports, they enjoy the physical disadvantages of being female. That is why you don't hear of transmen setting new records in men's sport. Gender identity ideology contains no advantages for women (biological females). It confers social benefits only to men (biological males).

Men who set records in women's sport, I think you'll find, tend to achieve times/weightlifting accomplishments/whatever applies that would only make them average athletes in the corresponding men's leagues. They don't tend to be objectively great athletes, in other words. They're just biologically male and have that natural advantage in women's athletics. The fact that they're rarely great athletes by the standards of their sex could be part of their motivation for choosing to compete in the women's league, in fact.

Last edited by Jaicee - on 04 July 2020

YukikoAmagi said:
shikamaru317 said:

Not a fan of this at all. It's unfair to biological women to make them compete against people who were born men, as males simply have more muscle mass and can maintain more muscle mass even after hormone therapy. We've now seen multiple examples of trans women who were allowed to compete against biological women and utterly dominated them. Trans women should be in a league of their own.

As for trans men, I honestly have no idea how fair that is as we have seen few examples of trans men competing against biological men so far. 

Competitions are inherently unfair, especially physical ones. Some people are just naturally born with more athletic features and advantages. Also, considering the harassment, trauma, discrimination, etc. trans people receive, as well as the costs associated with transitioning, the chance that someone is transitioning specifically to have an advantage in competition is miniscule.

Trans men are men and trans women are women.

I don't doubt that athletes who transition are doing so sincerely. But, even if they're not doing it to gain an advantage, this does not mean they won't have one.

Athletic competitions are definitely unfair to the nonathletic. Sadly, I am never going to qualify for any major sporting event, even if I were to transition for a female. 

In particular, about 50% of the population has a chromosome that typically grants a very large competitive edge.  The advantage is so pronounced in most sports, that if this 50% and the other 50% competed together at the top levels of competition, nobody in the second group would ever be successful. As a society, we decided that segregating the two groups would allow more people to participate in athletics, and that's something we wanted to do. Allowing the group with the advantaged chromosomes to compete with those without it, unless that advantage could somehow be mitigated, would defeat the entire purpose.

Trans women are women.  And cis women are women.  The fact that they are both in the same category does not mean they are identical.  If I were running a medical experiment to see how males and females reacted to a drug, it would make no sense to include women who have not transitioned in the female group. I'm all for treating trans people the way they wish to be treated whenever it makes sense. Sports are one of the few instances where it probably doesn't (although I'm open to data that shows that post-transition athletes do not have an advantage).