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Forums - Microsoft - Leaked Lockhart specs

zero129 said:
KratosLives said:
Well I will be avoiding the series x now. Imagine trying to make a game that is only possible on the 12 teraflop powerhouse, then to be told, sorry it needs to run on on your 4 teraflop sibling. People thinking that the solution is to drop from 4k to 1080. But what if some grand epic is made at 1080 pushing the series x to its limit, how would you put that game on the series s?? Now devs will have to design for weaker hardware in mind. Screw this.

Lower to 720P lower textures etc, ya know the kinda stuff engines have been doing for years now.

No one will want to go back to 720p after getting used to 1080.



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NextGen_Gamer said:

although the chip itself will be much smaller than XSX (4TF "RDNA 2" GPU instead of 12TF), it will still need the exact same 1TB of SSD storage

i don't see need for same storage size, high res assets not only wouldn't be needed, but would put excessive strain on the system, esp. with low RAM. i expect Lockhart would use specific version of games with asset resolution optimized for it's capabilities, even if most game code is generally identical. Lockhart may just not download (or copy from disc) the high resolutions, and download or copy the Lockhart-specific low resolution assets SX doesn't.

on potential scaling problems, besides games that run at sub-4K on series x probably needing to scale to sub-1080p (which is more noticeable relatively), there is also physics and other compute applications of GPU that don't really scale, so if not touching those Lockhart will need to scale the rest much harder. (i.e. if physics/etc uses 2 TF that leaves 10 on SX but only 2 on Lockhardt, forcing to scale non-physics GPU load worse than 1080p equivalent of SX) that is excessive example, and if stats are correct they are provisioning 1/3 the TF for 1/4 the pixels, leaving room for that... but will it always be enough  room? although fair to say, plenty of games could probably have BETTER relative performance on Lockhart at 1080p than on SX at 4K, even if some have problems. (of course, games could also offer 'performance mode' on SX that lowers resolution/etc somewhat for better FPS or whatever is prioritized by that mode)

overall, find it weird if MS aren't launching with this, if devs will need to tweak games from day 1 to run on this sub-variant, weird to not actually sell it from day 1... although MS hasn't finished with all their pre-launch presentations eitiher, so who knows there. the more different specs within the platform, the more games will be held back by whatever lowest common denominator, even if bottleneck changes per game. dividing a gen like this doesn't seem like a good idea for the platform that has less than half it's direct competition, that much less payoff for the trouble it creates for developers. EDIT: also relevant to consider is how MS will continue to sell lastgen Xbox for awhile to price senstive consumers. selling Lockhart right away would get those consumers growing the newgen install base. although maybe 3rd parties are happier selling crossgen games to large lastgen base? /shrug

relatedly, i wonder about future high spec version of SX, if they will be doing that for one, but how it might play out... seems like the obvious way to address the performance benefits of Sony's advanced I/O architecture is expanding RAM capacity since that is what Sony's architecture "virtually" achieves basically. with consoles the baseline for much AAA development, also interesting to see if Sony's architecture leads to PC gaming embracing larger GPU memory size.

Last edited by mutantsushi - on 27 June 2020

why are we saying this isn't enough if DLSS like implementations will still make this thing run anything the actual bigdickconsoles will



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EricHiggin said:
eva01beserk said:

Im not. While I dont see it closing the gap, I see this do in really good if they market this as an xbox one x slim. They would already be a head in next gen. At 1080p and no raytracing, I see the xbox one x playing pretty much anything. Thats something the ps4 pro cant do as it dosent have the 12gb ram the x1x has.

A question that should really be asked, is does MS believe the XB1 branding is tainted, and would they be better served to drop it altogether next gen? While that would leave the sub $299 price range solely to PS4, it would allow MS to take a step towards getting rid of the XB1 negativity. It couldn't be forgotten completely as they will still be supporting XB1 consoles, but being able to say they are no longer selling that hardware, would be a way to make it look like they are making a worthy push into next gen without being held back as much. It would mostly be marketing PR, but MS needs all the positivity they can get now and going forward.

The fact that they called it "Series X", says to me, if there is going to be another lesser console, that's spec'd similar to XB1X, then there is next to no reason to keep the XB1X. Call it 'Series Whatever' and move forward, dropping XB1X. Maybe that means no more XB1S as well, maybe not. We'll see. 

If Lockhart is real and does exist with specs close to what has been leaked, who's to say there isn't a lower tier below that to compete with PS4? Perhaps just an xCloud streaming box. Maybe they end up with Series S, Series E, Series X. $199, $349, $499. Now that would be really interesting.

Would that be mic drop worthy in terms of hardware?

I never thought of that. your right, the xbox one name might be poisonous. that really could be a good reason to change the name even if the performance is the same.

There are rumors that the lockhart apu is meant for surface laptops. But that would cost more than an xsx most likely. I would not be surprised if part of the family is a set of laptops ranging from the rumor 4tf and going up to maybe matching the xsx at maybe a heafty premium. I would definetly consider that a mic drop moment. I have zero interest in an xsx, but if they make that laptop lockhart =< $1000 I would buy it instanly.  



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I assume this console will appeal to parents only



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KratosLives said:

I assume this console will appeal to parents only

I can imagine pissed kids complaining their parents bought the cheap skate version.



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DonFerrari said:
KratosLives said:

I assume this console will appeal to parents only

I can imagine pissed kids complaining their parents bought the cheap skate version.



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NextGen_Gamer said:

Yeah the "Lockhart" rumors are getting more and more legit. I am thinking $299, since although the chip itself will be much smaller than XSX (being just a 4TF "RDNA 2" GPU instead of 12TF), it will still need the exact same 1TB of SSD storage setup as the high-end console. The small dip in the CPU clockspeed isn't unexpected and wouldn't have any negative effect on the games. A large part of the CPU's time is draw calls to the GPU - and since games running on "Lockhart" will be 1080p instead of 4K, that means a LOT less draw calls. I'm guessing maybe around 3.50GHz (down from 3.80GHz on XSX)?

At this point, here are my price predictions:

$499 - Xbox Series X, 1TB SSD

$299 - Xbox Series S, 1TB SSD

$499 - PlayStation 5, 825GB SSD

$449 - PlayStation 5 Digital Edition, 825GB SSD

A material with 1x1024 texture resolution set takes 1 draw call to render.
A material with 1x2048 texture resolution set takes 1 draw call to render.

Those draw calls are independent of the display and texture resolution, so the number of draw calls to render the high or low quality asset is exactly the same.

Draw calls are the number of "calls" for assets, not the fundamental quality if that makes sense.

Don't understand why it would still need 1 Tb of storage?

Angelv577 said:
My xb1X is more powerful in everything except the CPU.

Hell no it isn't.
Just like a 32bit console can be faster than a 64bit console... Not everything is about Teraflops.

Blood_Tears said:
Angelv577 said:
If the cpu is a slghtly underclocked cpu, I see this console to be priced at $399. My xb1X is more powerful in everything except the CPU.

How does the RAM stack up though?  IF Xbox One X uses 9GB GDDR5 for games and Lockhart uses 7.5GB of GDDR6 for games?

The SSD will allow for a more efficient use of memory.

The Xbox One X also uses allot of it's Ram chasing the "4k dream". - Microsoft for example retained a 1080P dashboard on the Xbox One X in order to reign in memory consumption of the UI/OS.

V-r0cK said:

So if MS makes an exclusive game disc that utilizes the full 4K and all its horsepower, can that same game disc be placed into the Lockhart and it will magically downgrade to make it playable?

Basically it works the same way games on Xbox One do now.
There are some "flags" that are exposed to developers, so that game settings are adjusted depending on the hardware.

That also means that Microsoft may have additional flags that pertains to more hardware sets than just Lockhart or Xbox Series X, so in the future when they release a "pro" console games can be upgraded further.

haxxiy said:

I'm fairly sure NVMe SSD + 10 GB of RAM overwhelms 12 GB + HDD easily, all other things being equal. Hell, even 6 - 8 GB + SSD would likely do it.

An SSD isn't a replacement for Ram, we need to keep that in mind.




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kirby007 said:
why are we saying this isn't enough if DLSS like implementations will still make this thing run anything the actual bigdickconsoles will

Because we don't have any demonstration of DLSS quality image reconstruction on PS5 or XSX yet. The functionality is built into Nvidia cards, so its not a given PS5/SX will be able to easily replicate that level of reconstruction (i.e 540p to 1080p) but maybe someone more informed on the matter can give their take. 

OP;

The specs look fine for launch and this will indeed make a compelling purchase for people not concerned about 4k., but I worry how this system will age down the road. People who pick this up at launch get a system which is simply running at 1080p, great! 4 years down the line they have a system which is having ray tracing features cut, have performance modes cut, is having to drop to 720p and lower.

For example previews of Cyberpunk 2077

"The performance report from the German publication is a bit concerning on multiple levels, as the Cyberpunk 2077 preview apparently ran at 1080p with DLSS 2.0 enabled (announced yesterday by NVIDIA to be available for the game) and some (but not all) raytracing effects enabled on a computer powered by the mighty RTX 2080Ti graphics card." 

https://wccftech.com/cyberpunk-2077-preview-ran-at-1080p-with-dlss-2-0-enabled-on-an-rtx-2080ti-powered-pc/
This is just a glimpse of the future where game devs are pushing powerful hardware to the max. So I worry about how Series S fits into these kind of equations when 4k is no longer the target. It sounds like it will eventually be a nuisance for developers and consumers will eventually start to get more compromises on it then they bargained for. In the end if it can deliver the same kind of visual experience and developers do not use it as a base (and instead port down to it, ala Switch) then I guess it will be a nice inclusion into next gen. 

Last edited by Otter - on 27 June 2020

Otter said:
kirby007 said:
why are we saying this isn't enough if DLSS like implementations will still make this thing run anything the actual bigdickconsoles will

Because we don't have any demonstration of DLSS quality image reconstruction on PS5 or XSX yet. The functionality is built into Nvidia cards, so its not a given PS5/SX will be able to easily replicate that level of reconstruction (i.e 540p to 1080p) but maybe someone more informed on the matter can give their take. 

Microsoft has an alternative, it is called DirectML.

AMD has also done "Radeon Image Sharpening" with some good results.

Image reconstruction is nothing new, Doom was doing it back in 1993, approaching 30 years ago.




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