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Forums - Politics Discussion - J.K. Rowling Writes about Her Reasons for Speaking out on Sex and Gender Issues

Immersiveunreality said:
RenCutypoison said:

Worst trope ever. Noone discloses trans-identity by pulling down their pants.

Clear ? Why should I have to disclose I'm trans' (I do, because I'm an activist not because I have to as trans') when the problem is violent transphobic people. Why don't they have to disclose they are violent transphobic people ? I'd just walk away, I don't want anything to do with these creeps.

Thats good.

And now you stop the extreme that people like you are so vulnerable of being beaten up,that is a rarity.

Violence against transgendered individuals is unfortunately fairly common. According to the US Transgender Survey (2015) about 9% of transgendered individuals reported being physically assaulted based on their transgender identity over the past year, and 13% of transgendered individuals reporting assault for any reason over the past year. This compares to about 1.5% of individuals in the general population being assaulted that same year, which indicates that transgendered individuals are over 8.5x more likely to be victims of assault, and the majority of that difference is because of transphobic violence.

Sources:

https://transequality.org/sites/default/files/docs/usts/USTS-Full-Report-Dec17.pdf

https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/cv18.pdf

EDIT: Dammit, Torillian...



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sundin13 said:
Immersiveunreality said:

Thats good.

And now you stop the extreme that people like you are so vulnerable of being beaten up,that is a rarity.

Violence against transgendered individuals is unfortunately fairly common. According to the US Transgender Survey (2015) about 9% of transgendered individuals reported being physically assaulted based on their transgender identity over the past year, and 13% of transgendered individuals reporting assault for any reason over the past year. This compares to about 1.5% of individuals in the general population being assaulted that same year, which indicates that transgendered individuals are over 8.5x more likely to be victims of assault, and the majority of that difference is because of transphobic violence.

Sources:

https://transequality.org/sites/default/files/docs/usts/USTS-Full-Report-Dec17.pdf

https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/cv18.pdf

EDIT: Dammit, Torillian...

Gonna have to google faster than that if you want to beat me to a claim that can be easily disproven with math. Though I appreciate that you found the rate that the general population gets assaulted. Good call just finding assault claims I was trying to figure out how I would show what percentage of the general population report being physically assaulted within the last year to compare apples to apples but your comparison works better. 



...

Immersiveunreality said:
RenCutypoison said:

Worst trope ever. Noone discloses trans-identity by pulling down their pants.

Clear ? Why should I have to disclose I'm trans' (I do, because I'm an activist not because I have to as trans') when the problem is violent transphobic people. Why don't they have to disclose they are violent transphobic people ? I'd just walk away, I don't want anything to do with these creeps.

Thats good.

And now you stop the extreme that people like you are so vulnerable of being beaten up,that is a rarity.

Nearly half (48%) of all respondents in the sample reported being denied equal treatment, verbally harassed, and/or physically attacked in the past year because of being transgender.
• One in seven (14%) respondents reported that they were denied equal treatment or service in a public place in the past year because of being transgender.
• Nearly half (46%) of respondents reported that they were verbally harassed in the past year because of being transgender.
• Nearly one in ten (9%) respondents reported that they were physically attacked in the past year because of being transgender.
Nearly half (47%) of respondents have been sexually assaulted at some point in their lifetime.
One in ten (10%) respondents in the survey were sexually assaulted in the past year.
More than half (54%) of respondents experienced some form of intimate partner violence.
• More than one-third (35%) experienced physical violence by an intimate partner, compared to 30% of the U.S. adult population. Nearly one-quarter (24%) experienced severe physical violence by a current or former partner, compared with 18% of the U.S. population.

source : https://transequality.org/sites/default/files/docs/usts/USTS-Full-Report-Dec17.pdf



RenCutypoison said:
Nautilus said:

Just bumping this, because it's another thing I really agree with.

That's the very definition of transphobia, so congratulations.

Quick remainder that what happens in anybody's pants is their and their sexual partners business only.

"B-but outrage culture" We all have a right to be outraged when getting insulted by people who have clearly no idea what we're going trough.

I remember a few years ago when people pointed out a large majority of the mod pool was part of the LGBT community and I tought this hadn't changed since, I got to admit I'm pretty surprised no one is saying anything about the unmoderated blatant transphobia in this thread.

Didn't know that having a preference is being transphobic and racist.You learn something new every day.

Wouldn't that make you racist and prejudiced then, simply because you don't accept the way I think( and label me as such in a negative way), especially when I and many other have nothing against anyone?

Edit: About the bolded - Thank god we have the mod team we have. I may disagree with them every now and again, but they are all level headed. This is very different from Resetera, where it#s a hive mind and any vestige of Freedom of Speech and just common sense is tried to be wiped away.

Your talk just pointed out what is wrong with all this stupid movement: You guys don't care about whats right or wrong. You just want to everyone to accept your own view of the worldf, and the ones that don't should be banned the right to speak up. And this forum and countless others proves just that: It dosen't matter that you are gay, bi or straight, all opinions are respected, as long as you don't outright attack an user.

Last edited by Nautilus - on 03 July 2020

My (locked) thread about how difficulty should be a decision for the developers, not the gamers.

https://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/thread.php?id=241866&page=1

Nautilus said:
RenCutypoison said:

That's the very definition of transphobia, so congratulations.

Quick remainder that what happens in anybody's pants is their and their sexual partners business only.

"B-but outrage culture" We all have a right to be outraged when getting insulted by people who have clearly no idea what we're going trough.

I remember a few years ago when people pointed out a large majority of the mod pool was part of the LGBT community and I tought this hadn't changed since, I got to admit I'm pretty surprised no one is saying anything about the unmoderated blatant transphobia in this thread.

Didn't know that having a preference is being transphobic and racist.You learn something new every day.

Everyone has sexual preferences and I never denied that.

Nautilus said:

Wouldn't that make you racist and prejudiced then, simply because you don't accept the way I think( and label me as such in a negative way), especially when I and many other have nothing against anyone?

I called you on for defining people in a way they don't want to be defined. I never called you racist, I have no reason to.

Yes I think you are prejudiced, if you think gendering people based on your attraction is okay, it's not, and it causes prejudice to people. 

That's like saying ugly women are not women lol.

Nautilus said:

Your talk just pointed out what is rong with all this stupid movement: You guys don't care about whats right or wrong. You just want to everyone to accept your own view of the worldf, anmatter d the ones that don't should be banned the right to speak up. And this forum and countless others proves just that: It dosen't that you are gay, bi or straight, all opinions are respected, as long as you don't outright attack an user.

Prejudiciable view of the world lead, as implied,, to prejudice, in this case, to my peers. As such, I have a duty, as someone that educated themself on the subject for earlier stated reason, to educate people who propagate misconceptions.

I wouldn't call people asking for civic rights and basic human understanding "stupid".

We don't want to impose our worldview, we are just fighting for a right to be the one to define ourselves.

You are awfully defensive btw, everyone argued in a civil way despite the agressivness you perceived.

(Formating went wrong, big sorry. Also my terrible english, but it's friday night and i'm tired)



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RenCutypoison said:
Shinobi-san said:
People should be allowed to identify with whatever gender they want to.

But surely common sense should prevail when we talk about the use of public spaces, sports etc. Which i believe is what JK Rowling referred to. If biological woman do not feel safe sharing a toilet with transgender woman then that should in my opinion be the end of the story. Based on the fact that there is a clear physical difference between the two. Quite literally if that was ever to become a law in my country, it would EASILY be abused - and would open up an exploitable avenue for legitimate criminals.

Same goes with sports, males are now identifying as female then proceed to go and compete with females with zero hormonal balances or surgeries etc. Surelt thats rediculous and dangerous. Imagine if Francis Nganhou decided to be female tomorrow (and imagine it was a legitimate case). Then he decides to continue competing in the UFC with other females. As ridiculous as that sounds, based on some peoples opinions which lack common sense, we should allow this. Quite literally he will kill the first female he fights. And I dont mean knock out I mean literally they will die.

I can understand how cis women can feel unsafe with a transwoman in the toilets. HOWEVER, do you realise how unsafe transwomen are in a toilet with cismen ?

If you weren't outed before the best way is to use your birth gender toilet. 

The whole trans toilets shit is out of control, litterally what everyone wants from a toilet is for it to be vacant, and surrounded by walls, trans or cis. Public toilets with multiple people in the same room suck for everyone.

@bolded absolutely and I don't have a perfect solution - neither does JK Rowling or anyone else really, but surely she has a right to voice her opinion on something she feels directly impacted on, without getting cancelled?

That being said my initial premise is based primarily on physical differences. Provided that a transwomen has not undergone any medical alterations, he/she is better equipped to handle an immediate physical threat, as is any biological man. I think we can all agree which is the more vulnerable biological gender given history. So it makes zero sense to me, when we are living in a world that is actively fighting GBV, to start adding in disclaimers that would literally allow anyone to walk into any bathroom. As of right now society by and large adheres to biological acceptance of who is allowed in which toilet - which at the very least creates some sense of safety for biological woman.

To your last sentence, perhaps this seems like a small thing to people who live in first world countries, but in third world countries it can rapidly devolve into a disaster mascarading behind "social justice". First world countries, perhaps have the luxury of coming of with decent solutions to this - adding additional bathrooms etc.



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Shinobi-san said:
RenCutypoison said:

I can understand how cis women can feel unsafe with a transwoman in the toilets. HOWEVER, do you realise how unsafe transwomen are in a toilet with cismen ?

If you weren't outed before the best way is to use your birth gender toilet. 

The whole trans toilets shit is out of control, litterally what everyone wants from a toilet is for it to be vacant, and surrounded by walls, trans or cis. Public toilets with multiple people in the same room suck for everyone.

@bolded absolutely and I don't have a perfect solution - neither does JK Rowling or anyone else really, but surely she has a right to voice her opinion on something she feels directly impacted on, without getting cancelled?

That being said my initial premise is based primarily on physical differences. Provided that a transwomen has not undergone any medical alterations, he/she is better equipped to handle an immediate physical threat, as is any biological man. I think we can all agree which is the more vulnerable biological gender given history. So it makes zero sense to me, when we are living in a world that is actively fighting GBV, to start adding in disclaimers that would literally allow anyone to walk into any bathroom. As of right now society by and large adheres to biological acceptance of who is allowed in which toilet - which at the very least creates some sense of safety for biological woman.

To your last sentence, perhaps this seems like a small thing to people who live in first world countries, but in third world countries it can rapidly devolve into a disaster mascarading behind "social justice". First world countries, perhaps have the luxury of coming of with decent solutions to this - adding additional bathrooms etc.

It didn't occur to me, that's a fair point.

However, the toilet argument is the least important and insteresting part of transgenderism. For trans' peeps, the biggest problem in toilets is fearing for your life, but it's kind of the same as anywhere else, in a more vulnerable and certainly uncomfortable way. But the problem is violent radical exclusive people in this case.

From my experience in workplaces, I mostly go to the toilet after I confirmed it's completely empty, and I use the least popular one (In my previous workplace, I loved the men's bathroom, there were 35 women for 4 men -including both bosses lol-). Some trans peeps avoid public toilets but for woman and amab nbs on anti-androgens it's pretty hard (you have to pee like, every 20 minutes, not that it changed anything for me). I have, every single time, been invited to use women's bathroom by my female coworkers. I have a lot of luck and everyone is supportive, and have never had any bad bathroom experiences.

Another problem is, women and queers are more likely to be physically abused. So queer women suffer from intersectionnality. Especially sex workers and PoC. And I think it's pretty sad for women and transwomen to fight like this, when they should help each other.



sundin13 said:
Shinobi-san said:
People should be allowed to identify with whatever gender they want to.

But surely common sense should prevail when we talk about the use of public spaces, sports etc. Which i believe is what JK Rowling referred to. If biological woman do not feel safe sharing a toilet with transgender woman then that should in my opinion be the end of the story. Based on the fact that there is a clear physical difference between the two. Quite literally if that was ever to become a law in my country, it would EASILY be abused - and would open up an exploitable avenue for legitimate criminals.

The problem with these laws dictating bathroom use is that it is basically impossible to formulate a law in which the cis women are never left to feel unsafe. I mean, first of all, I don't think the feelings of cis women should be the only deciding factor here, but lets put that aside for a bit. You seem to be advocating for access to spaces such as bathrooms to be dictated based upon the gender assigned at birth.

From what I can tell, the logic here is that if someone who looks like a man walks in, the cis women in the bathroom won't like it, and as such, trans women shouldn't be allowed in the bathroom. But what about trans men? Under this law, trans men would be required to use the women's bathroom despite the fact that they may look indistinguishable from a man, and would make cis women uncomfortable.

Similarly, the potential for abuse by cis men goes both ways. If individuals are allowed access to bathrooms based on gender identity, a cis man could claim to be a trans woman and enter the bathroom. On the other hand, if individuals are allowed access to bathrooms based on their gender assigned at birth, a cis man could claim to be a trans man and enter the bathroom. Either way the potential for abuse exists. This is one of the reasons why there hasn't been any noted increase in such crimes in areas where individuals are allowed to choose their bathroom based on gender identity.

I'm not really "advocating" for anything. I am stating what the current norms and laws are in most places I've been to and if we were to change them it would be disastrous - at least in some regions of the world. I would even go as far as to state all regions of the world, as most countries have poorer areas with a general lack of security and safety.

I guess currently these norms are handled by the public and society - if there are a group of guys hanging out in a female toilet, anyone can go and complain to security etc. It can easily be handled. But if all those guys are legally allowed to randomly claim that they identify as female nobody can do anything about it. That shift in reality is logically worse than the current status quo.



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Shinobi-san said:
sundin13 said:

The problem with these laws dictating bathroom use is that it is basically impossible to formulate a law in which the cis women are never left to feel unsafe. I mean, first of all, I don't think the feelings of cis women should be the only deciding factor here, but lets put that aside for a bit. You seem to be advocating for access to spaces such as bathrooms to be dictated based upon the gender assigned at birth.

From what I can tell, the logic here is that if someone who looks like a man walks in, the cis women in the bathroom won't like it, and as such, trans women shouldn't be allowed in the bathroom. But what about trans men? Under this law, trans men would be required to use the women's bathroom despite the fact that they may look indistinguishable from a man, and would make cis women uncomfortable.

Similarly, the potential for abuse by cis men goes both ways. If individuals are allowed access to bathrooms based on gender identity, a cis man could claim to be a trans woman and enter the bathroom. On the other hand, if individuals are allowed access to bathrooms based on their gender assigned at birth, a cis man could claim to be a trans man and enter the bathroom. Either way the potential for abuse exists. This is one of the reasons why there hasn't been any noted increase in such crimes in areas where individuals are allowed to choose their bathroom based on gender identity.

I'm not really "advocating" for anything. I am stating what the current norms and laws are in most places I've been to and if we were to change them it would be disastrous - at least in some regions of the world. I would even go as far as to state all regions of the world, as most countries have poorer areas with a general lack of security and safety.

I guess currently these norms are handled by the public and society - if there are a group of guys hanging out in a female toilet, anyone can go and complain to security etc. It can easily be handled. But if all those guys are legally allowed to randomly claim that they identify as female nobody can do anything about it. That shift in reality is logically worse than the current status quo.

You pose this assertion of disastrous consequences without any proof or evidence that such disastrous consequences would occur. Further, in areas where we have already seen individuals be allowed to use the bathroom of their choice, the have been no disastrous consequences, which should invalidate this argument, yet I still see it made commonly.

And again:

"The potential for abuse by cis men goes both ways. If individuals are allowed access to bathrooms based on gender identity, a cis man could claim to be a trans woman and enter the bathroom. On the other hand, if individuals are allowed access to bathrooms based on their gender assigned at birth, a cis man could claim to be a trans man and enter the bathroom. Either way the potential for abuse exists. This is one of the reasons why there hasn't been any noted increase in such crimes in areas where individuals are allowed to choose their bathroom based on gender identity."

Laws restricting bathroom use do not protect people. They put transgendered individuals in harms way, and we do not see any tangible benefits. There is no trade-off here. Laws restricting bathroom use are harmful.



Shinobi-san said:
sundin13 said:

The problem with these laws dictating bathroom use is that it is basically impossible to formulate a law in which the cis women are never left to feel unsafe. I mean, first of all, I don't think the feelings of cis women should be the only deciding factor here, but lets put that aside for a bit. You seem to be advocating for access to spaces such as bathrooms to be dictated based upon the gender assigned at birth.

From what I can tell, the logic here is that if someone who looks like a man walks in, the cis women in the bathroom won't like it, and as such, trans women shouldn't be allowed in the bathroom. But what about trans men? Under this law, trans men would be required to use the women's bathroom despite the fact that they may look indistinguishable from a man, and would make cis women uncomfortable.

Similarly, the potential for abuse by cis men goes both ways. If individuals are allowed access to bathrooms based on gender identity, a cis man could claim to be a trans woman and enter the bathroom. On the other hand, if individuals are allowed access to bathrooms based on their gender assigned at birth, a cis man could claim to be a trans man and enter the bathroom. Either way the potential for abuse exists. This is one of the reasons why there hasn't been any noted increase in such crimes in areas where individuals are allowed to choose their bathroom based on gender identity.

I'm not really "advocating" for anything. I am stating what the current norms and laws are in most places I've been to and if we were to change them it would be disastrous - at least in some regions of the world. I would even go as far as to state all regions of the world, as most countries have poorer areas with a general lack of security and safety.

I guess currently these norms are handled by the public and society - if there are a group of guys hanging out in a female toilet, anyone can go and complain to security etc. It can easily be handled. But if all those guys are legally allowed to randomly claim that they identify as female nobody can do anything about it. That shift in reality is logically worse than the current status quo.

Pretending to be trans' is a myth. Hormones make cis people go crazy, dressing as the other popular gender is ridiculed and automatically laughed at.

The problem with doubting claims is that it's all we have. Self perceived identity can't be proven or disproven.

And really, bathroom don't need laws to change. Just people to be more accepting, at most, but again, from my priviledged perspective, it's pretty chill rn.

Edit: this is trash written from my perspectives. Transmen have it worse. Like real worse. Being identified as AFaB in a bar's men bathroom is litterally life threatening.

Last edited by RenCutypoison - on 03 July 2020