Forums - Sony Discussion - Sony might be useing 3D stacked chips to be more power effecient, have better cooling.

Mindblown?

yes, 3D stacked chips arn... 7 50.00%
 
nah, I'm liveing in the f... 7 50.00%
 
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I think it's quite bold from them, if true.

I hope they've thought and designed it well, otherwise it may come back and bite their ass hard.



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drkohler said:
vivster said:

As for 3D stacking, that has been used commercially since the PSP. Today it's mostly used in SSDs.

The memory chips in an ssd are layered, not stacked.

Nope, stacked. They are vertically connected to each other, not just layered on top of each other.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-dimensional_integrated_circuit#Commercial_3D_ICs_(2004%E2%80%93present)

Unless we're talking about something completely different.



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Nah - the consoles will contain off-the-shelf parts. They'll be something that looks like a Ryzen 3800X CPU, and a Radeon RX 5700 GPU. The only stacked chips could be the SSD (where stacking is already common).

A console isn't like a phone or laptop where size is a premium. There is no point increasing complexity/risk/price for the product.



JRPGfan said:

Im gonna go ahead and say I'm impressed.

They are patents. They aren't actual products.
Don't be impressed when there is no demonstrable product yet.

JRPGfan said:


Sony seems to be doing alot of "new" things.
The variable clock speeds, to maximise performance without needing to waste anything on overhead.
The 3D stacked chip, and the unique cooling solution seem, like something we've heard of would be comeing in the future, but no one really expected to see anytime soon.

Variable clockrates that aren't developer controlled/influenced isn't a good thing...

JRPGfan said:

The 3D stacked chip, and the unique cooling solution seem, like something we've heard of would be comeing in the future, but no one really expected to see anytime soon.

We have been stacking NAND chips for years.

JRPGfan said:


Even the controller is new, its no longer called a dualshock, but now the dualSense, after the changes it got in tech.

Controller is just an evolution of past designs, it's different, but it's not going to be playing games any differently, it still has your normal array of buttons and two analogue sticks and a d-pad.

JRPGfan said:


This ontop of stuff like all the work they put into removeing bottlenecks, when moveing data around (from the SSD).

Please elaborate on those bottlenecks.

JRPGfan said:


Alot of this stuff just "seems" more planned out than what Microsoft did.
With the Xbox series X, there wasnt any "surprises", it was basically just more or less what everyone thought it would be.
With the Playstation 5, there seems to be alot of elegant solutions, and new stuff/thinking.

Seems? Elegant solutions? We haven't even seen the console yet!
It's all well and good to use buzzwords to hype something up, but don't use them before we have even seen the hardware.

JRPGfan said:
Moren said:

Thank you Sony for inventing 3D IC stacking!

Sarcasm I take it?... but how many other consumer products do you know that use it currently? Do you see other CPU or GPU solutions that do so?
How many other products do you see a 3D stacked chip cooled on both side? I've never seen that before.

Chip stacking has a ton of caveats... And like you alluded to, cooling is a big one... Implementing an additional cooling layer between stacked chips increases complexity and reduces yields and is entirely unnecessary in scenarios where you have enough space (I.E. PC and Console) when you can simply go the chiplet route and interface those chips with a larger and more efficient surface area to draw heat from. - Basic thermodynamics comes into play.

However 3D chip stacking isn't new or novel... The PSP from 2004 even had a stacked Toshiba eDRAM chip.

HBM Memory uses an interposer with stacked RAM chips on top.

This isn't a new technology invented by Sony.



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

i dobt this simply becasue sony likely remembers what happened the last time they tried bleeding edge tech- the ps3.



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If they are using 3d stacking, its expensive and one of the reasons that not many besides(Apple) and maybe a few others are even using this tech....



vivster said:
drkohler said:

The memory chips in an ssd are layered, not stacked.

Nope, stacked. They are vertically connected to each other, not just layered on top of each other.

Stacked = Different chips placed on top of each other connected with ball point grids or whatever in between.

Layered = One chip, internally made in layers or stacks connected with vias.

Memory chips in ssds are layered chips (I think the record is around 96 layers?)

I know it's semantics in the end.



Moren said:
JRPGfan said:

Sarcasm I take it?... but how many other consumer products do you know that use it currently? Do you see other CPU or GPU solutions that do so?
How many other products do you see a 3D stacked chip cooled on both side? I've never seen that before.

Implying that somehow Microsoft's design wasn't "planned" or innovative is a pretty bold claim, considering they've talked extensively about how they'll handle cooling - they're just going for intricate mechanical designs, which are time-tested and effective.

https://twitter.com/xbox/status/1239522130196193285?lang=en

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Fjn4GRw8qE

Ofcourse because the top of the xbox series x is open for air,so much dust is going to be collected i suspect where going to see a lot of broken systems.

Or not.



 

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xl-klaudkil said:
Moren said:

Implying that somehow Microsoft's design wasn't "planned" or innovative is a pretty bold claim, considering they've talked extensively about how they'll handle cooling - they're just going for intricate mechanical designs, which are time-tested and effective.

https://twitter.com/xbox/status/1239522130196193285?lang=en

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Fjn4GRw8qE

Ofcourse because the top of the xbox series x is open for air,so much dust is going to be collected i suspect where going to see a lot of broken systems.

Or not.

"Or not" is the accurate answer.

Because Microsoft and Sony are adopting PC technology, namely PC technology from AMD... They also adopt all the benefits that go with that.

Now since the Pentium 4/Athlon 64, Intel and AMD have implemented overheating protecting in all their processors... That means when you hit the thermal limits of the chips, the chips either throttle downwards in voltage and clockrate or shut off entirely in order to protect themselves, aka. Thermal protection.

The 7th gen consoles missed out on this technological development because they used IBM processors... And that impacted on their reliability to various extents.

The 8th gen consoles do feature the technology, I am sure someone on this forum has seen the error message when their console has hit the thermal limits.

Either way... Microsoft and Sony will have developed the Xbox Series X and Playstation 5 with enough headroom to account for dust accumulation which will reduce the consoles ability to dissipate heat effectively over periods of years, Microsoft's engineering is much much better than it used to be, the Xbox One S and Xbox One X, Microsoft Surface and more is a testament to that very fact.

Either-way, it will be a non-issue for either company/console... Or at the very least an issue that can be rectified with some compressed air once every few years.



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

Reading through the patent, it made itself look quite old. As in, nothing about stacked hardware, but instead the description in the OP is mostly one of FCPGA, or Flipped Chip Pin Grid Array. Those were originally developed because non-flipped ones started needing some active cooling at the time, and they still needed to figure out how to do that effectively. The only new stuff are some holes for coolant, basically integrated heatpipes, which allow for the heat to also exit from the sides of the die, not just above, hence no need for a cooler on the upper side. But that doesn't mean no cooler at all.