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Forums - General Discussion - Coronavirus (COVID-19) Discussion Thread

vivster said:
RolStoppable said:

Doesn't really matter. A virus is way easier to combat than established bad habits. You could say the same about smoking and drinking, but it's moot to talk about it. It's only logical to tackle the easier to solve problem first or maybe do both at the same time? It's not like people have stopped caring about other issues during the pandemic.

I mean, most never cared about other issues, to begin with. 9 million people died of hunger last year. 3 million were children under 5. I strongly suspect that would take less financial resources and logistic planning to solve than vaccinating everyone for Covid and instead, here we are, shocked that retired boomers in developed countries are dying above usual rates.

Whataboutism? I'd rather consider it relevant context to determine whether certain attitudes or concerns are actually fair and not merely deflections...

I mean, so many people are like oooh 2020 is the worst year ever. Pal, you don't need to go more than ten or fifteen years to the past to find out, for the average human being, in terms of life expectancy, income, etc., that life was worse than this, all the time.



 

 

 

 

 

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haxxiy said:
vivster said:

Doesn't really matter. A virus is way easier to combat than established bad habits. You could say the same about smoking and drinking, but it's moot to talk about it. It's only logical to tackle the easier to solve problem first or maybe do both at the same time? It's not like people have stopped caring about other issues during the pandemic.

I mean, most never cared about other issues, to begin with. 9 million people died of hunger last year. 3 million were children under 5. I strongly suspect that would take less financial resources and logistic planning to solve than vaccinating everyone for Covid and instead, here we are, shocked that retired boomers in developed countries are dying above usual rates.

Whataboutism? I'd rather consider it relevant context to determine whether certain attitudes or concerns are actually fair and not merely deflections...

I mean, so many people are like oooh 2020 is the worst year ever. Pal, you don't need to go more than ten or fifteen years to the past to find out, for the average human being, in terms of life expectancy, income, etc., that life was worse than this, all the time.

Fairness isn't how humanity works. Everything is just shitty compromises and decisions based on the least shitty outcome. It's also never an "either or" decision.

The global fight against a pandemic does not mean wasted resources. To think that those resources would be used to solve other crises instead is foolish. Poor people aren't dying of hunger because rich white people are getting treated for COVID. They will die either way because in the grand scheme nobody cares enough. If they did they would be fighting the pandemic and hunger at the same time. Well, actually if anyone cared about hunger it would've been solved long before the pandemic even started. Comparing the two is neither fair nor productive. Other issues are separate fights that need to be fought. There are enough resources to fight everything without trying to question the resources put into one.

The question isn't if there are too many resources pumped into one crisis, the question should be why aren't more resources made available for other things. If you want more resources try the world's war industry and not desperate doctors trying to solve a pandemic.



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RolStoppable said:

"For comparison's sake, how many people died in 2020 from the consequences of too high sugar and fat intake over the course of their lives?

I am pretty sure that the food industry is a much bigger threat to human life than the virus" 

A couple of years back a strange virus broke out in my country. Its syntoms were fever, joint pain and diarrea, but it was not lethal so no extra meassures were taken against it, so in less than two months almost everyone got it.  So after seeing first hand how fast a virus can spread I can't help but wonder what would've happened if no meassures had been taken to try to stop this one.

The point I'm trying to make is that these "low" numbers are precisely BECAUSE we haven't been able to go to a movie theater, a music concert, a sport game, a night out at the disco, etc, etc, for the last eight months, not to mention the fact that we have had to wear masks and try to avoid human contact as much as possible. I'm pretty sure things would be much MUCH different now if nothing had been done to try to slow down its spread.



RolStoppable said:
vivster said:

Doesn't really matter. A virus is way easier to combat than established bad habits. You could say the same about smoking and drinking, but it's moot to talk about it. It's only logical to tackle the easier to solve problem first or maybe do both at the same time? It's not like people have stopped caring about other issues during the pandemic.

A virus is only easier to combat because politicians have no spine. If they weren't servants of capitalism, then it would be clear to everyone that combating a virus is not easier.

A good example of this is sugar tax. The reason why a lot of sugar is added to processed food and drinks is because sugar tastes good and is a cheap ingredient, making it a win-win for producers; the downside is that it's unhealthy which in turn puts a lot of strain on healthcare. With COVID-19, politicians came up with a lot of measures that were often inconsistent and illogical, and which will ultimately cost the people of all countries a lot of money, because all variants of relief bills consist of a combination of taxpayer money and states taking on more debt which will have to be paid back with taxpayer money. On the other hand, sugar tax is a single easy to implement measure with longlasting positive effects and on top of that it isn't detrimental to the common people. Sugar tax makes sugar a more expensive ingredient, so producers will refrain from adding a lot of sugar for the sake of profitability; it really is that easy.

The coronavirus made peoples all around the world unite together because it was played up to be an immense threat despite being something that the vast majority was easily going to survive without any lasting drawbacks for their health. Meanwhile, there are much bigger problems with more severe consequences that keep leaving people cold. That makes it very easy to be cynical about humanity's grasp of common sense. Just like the high approval ratings of politicians who ordered strict corona measures, simply because not a lot of people died, completely ignoring that there was never going to be a big number to die because of COVID to begin with. But what can you do when the media has hammered the threat of corona into people's heads by continuously highlighting the worst cases instead of pointing to how many people got off easily.

The thing that bothers me the most about all those corona measures is that no country went with the simple idea of isolating its risk groups from the rest of the population instead of isolating everyone. The cherry on top is that old people are the most likely to not go along with the measures for reasons like having no faith in politics because they've become numb over decades of lies and deception, or having already experienced so many other crises that they know that it's always made out to be much worse than it really is.

Thankfully, the vaccines are coming. Because otherwise we would have politicians repeat the same thing again and again.

If most politicians worldwide did the lockdowns properly instead of half assed measures we wouldn't have a problem right now. Temporary lockdowns are absolutely fine. But if everyone is only doing a half assed job it will be as ineffective as a negligible sugar tax. The initial plan in Germany was solid; isolating local outbreaks. Sadly Angie had to wank off on her beloved federalism instead of actually enforcing the local lockdowns herself and let the individual states do nothing. God, I hate federalism so much.

Though I admit I could be a bit biased here since my introversion allows me to enjoy lockdowns, which are probably much harder on the general population. Which would make any measures against a virus a hopeless endeavor, just like trying to combat other harmful things that have become habits to people. But that means we're fucked either way and no point to complain about it.

Only isolating risk groups is not gonna work, mainly because there isn't a clear cut risk group. Imagine isolating only old people and letting the virus roam free amongst young people. You will cross a point where the virus will kill more young people than old people and then people will start to become worried again and demand action. Media hysteria aside I have plenty of colleagues who are genuinely worried about themselves or their loved ones because it really could hit them, no matter how small the chance and it could have irreversible lasting effects. That's legitimately scary. Much more scary than becoming fat but always having the option to do something about it.

Last edited by vivster - on 03 January 2021

If you demand respect or gratitude for your volunteer work, you're doing volunteering wrong.

RolStoppable said:
vivster said:

Doesn't really matter. A virus is way easier to combat than established bad habits. You could say the same about smoking and drinking, but it's moot to talk about it. It's only logical to tackle the easier to solve problem first or maybe do both at the same time? It's not like people have stopped caring about other issues during the pandemic.

A virus is only easier to combat because politicians have no spine. If they weren't servants of capitalism, then it would be clear to everyone that combating a virus is not easier.

A good example of this is sugar tax. The reason why a lot of sugar is added to processed food and drinks is because sugar tastes good and is a cheap ingredient, making it a win-win for producers; the downside is that it's unhealthy which in turn puts a lot of strain on healthcare. With COVID-19, politicians came up with a lot of measures that were often inconsistent and illogical, and which will ultimately cost the people of all countries a lot of money, because all variants of relief bills consist of a combination of taxpayer money and states taking on more debt which will have to be paid back with taxpayer money. On the other hand, sugar tax is a single easy to implement measure with longlasting positive effects and on top of that it isn't detrimental to the common people. Sugar tax makes sugar a more expensive ingredient, so producers will refrain from adding a lot of sugar for the sake of profitability; it really is that easy.

The coronavirus made peoples all around the world unite together because it was played up to be an immense threat despite being something that the vast majority was easily going to survive without any lasting drawbacks for their health. Meanwhile, there are much bigger problems with more severe consequences that keep leaving people cold. That makes it very easy to be cynical about humanity's grasp of common sense. Just like the high approval ratings of politicians who ordered strict corona measures, simply because not a lot of people died, completely ignoring that there was never going to be a big number to die because of COVID to begin with. But what can you do when the media has hammered the threat of corona into people's heads by continuously highlighting the worst cases instead of pointing to how many people got off easily.

The thing that bothers me the most about all those corona measures is that no country went with the simple idea of isolating its risk groups from the rest of the population instead of isolating everyone. The cherry on top is that old people are the most likely to not go along with the measures for reasons like having no faith in politics because they've become numb over decades of lies and deception, or having already experienced so many other crises that they know that it's always made out to be much worse than it really is.

Thankfully, the vaccines are coming. Because otherwise we would have politicians repeat the same thing again and again.

"ignoring that there was never going to be a big number to die because of COVID to begin with"

lol you got any source for that? Sounds like a bunch of bullshit to me.

"The thing that bothers me the most about all those corona measures is that no country went with the simple idea of isolating its risk groups from the rest of the population instead of isolating everyone."

When it's so easy then you shouldn't have a problem telling me HOW that can be accomplished. You know, underage people at higher risk living with their parents or elderly living in the same household as their children and grand children. Elderly who live alone yet still need to visit a doctor and buy groceries. etc. etc. How can you properly isolate them when pretty much everyone else has a much much much higher chance of being infected?



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This is official data on excess mortality in germany until end of November. The text is in german, but you can see the data in the graph. The excess mortality in summer is because of a heat wave, if you wonder. Other than that the excess matches the covid-numbers.

https://www.destatis.de/DE/Themen/Querschnitt/Corona/Gesellschaft/bevoelkerung-sterbefaelle.html



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RolStoppable said:
Barozi said:

"ignoring that there was never going to be a big number to die because of COVID to begin with"

lol you got any source for that? Sounds like a bunch of bullshit to me.

"The thing that bothers me the most about all those corona measures is that no country went with the simple idea of isolating its risk groups from the rest of the population instead of isolating everyone."

When it's so easy then you shouldn't have a problem telling me HOW that can be accomplished. You know, underage people at higher risk living with their parents or elderly living in the same household as their children and grand children. Elderly who live alone yet still need to visit a doctor and buy groceries. etc. etc. How can you properly isolate them when pretty much everyone else has a much much much higher chance of being infected?

1. After so many months of COVID it should be common knowledge that the vast majority of corona infections resulted in no, mild or only moderate symptoms.

2. When governments are able to push through measures that apply to the whole population, then they are capable of doing the same for a smaller group. Risk groups that live in the same household as people who don't belong to a risk group, that is solved by the no-risk people doing the same thing that they are supposed to do during the actual measures that were applied; namely, keep contact to people outside the household as low as possible, do home office or work only a few hours per week while still getting nearly the same pay as for the full-time job.

Elderly who live alone can rely on relatives, neighbors or delivery services to get their necessary shopping done. Visiting a doctor isn't a problem either, because going outside doesn't lead to a corona infection while at the doctor's place there are rules to keep potential corona infections to a minimum anyway.

Everyone else can go on with their lives and meet other people, except that typical hazards aren't allowed: Big events don't get to have spectators, pubs and clubs are closed, any kind of big gatherings with notable consumption of alcoholic beverages. Vacations in other countries will have to be followed up by 14 days of quarantine at home. But when you put these things together, you need a whole lot less money to subsidize ailing businesses, because you focus on the few that pose an actual threat for the health of the whole population.

Did I mention mask duty in shops along with keeping distance to other customers? In any case, I am not proposing a "let's not do anything to keep the spread down", but rather a way to focus on where the actual risks are instead of treating everyone and everything the same.

The true fact that COVID-19 (as pretty much all illnesses) is more dangerous for older people has somehow transformed into: it is no problem for younger people. But that is just not true. COVID-19 is also for people in their 20s or 30s much more dangerous than the flu. But the flu also especially hits hard elderly people and the same is true for COVID-19. That doesn't change the fact, that younger people die form COVID, or what is often forgotten suffer long-term problems in long COVID.



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Why are we back to, it's not so bad, not that many people were going to die in the first place. It's only not so bad because we're doing all this shit to prevent it from becoming more than 'not so bad'. Exponential growth is what we're trying to prevent and so far we are succeeding at that at least.

Despite all the measures, the UK was back to 1.6x growth per week. The vast majority still has not had Covid-19. Not doing the lock downs wasn't working despite continued pleas from the governments to be more careful. 1.6x growth per week will quickly overwhelm the hospitals, causing many more deaths also from other situations that require hospital attention.

1.6x per week, that's about 7.5x growth per month, 56 times growth in 2 months. Exponential growth is the real killer. Stop with the comparisons to car crashes and sugar, those don't have exponential growth if left unchecked. Plus the more the virus is in circulation, the more chances it has to mutate into something more contagious or damaging like now again in the UK and South Africa.

Facts:
84,355,259 people infected so far, 1,834,484 dead

Both likely under reported, infections more so.
Dirty estimate 800 million people have had it already, 2.5 million dead
That leaves room for at least another 15-20 million deaths, if remaining at this pace (no overwhelmed hospitals) with another 7 years of lock downs before herd immunity might work. How effective is immunity though and how long will it last, and will it not mutate into something worse.

Relax the measures and let the rest get it over the next 6 months? Hospital collapse. Go ask some people working at hospitals how well its going. We're back into lock downs because despite all the measures, mandatory masks, isolating the elderly, social distancing, online learning, pleading the public to avoid travel, hospitals ran out of capacity again and have to cancel other surgeries.

Last edited by SvennoJ - on 03 January 2021

RolStoppable said:
Mnementh said:

The true fact that COVID-19 (as pretty much all illnesses) is more dangerous for older people has somehow transformed into: it is no problem for younger people. But that is just not true. COVID-19 is also for people in their 20s or 30s much more dangerous than the flu. But the flu also especially hits hard elderly people and the same is true for COVID-19. That doesn't change the fact, that younger people die form COVID, or what is often forgotten suffer long-term problems in long COVID.

It's also fact that people die in car crashes. But that didn't mean that cars got outlawed, rather step after step was taken to make driving safer without taking away people's driver licenses in the meantime.

Yes, it's fact that young people can seriously suffer from COVID, but it's also fact that the vast majority does not.

We *do* a lot stuff to prevent fatal car crashes: airbags, seat belts, traffic laws, traffic signs, car inspections, road safety, speed restrictions, mandatory driving instructions and so on. People get their driving license revoked, if they break rules. They also get fined. And they might even go to jail in cases of rule breaking which strongly endangers others. You are right, these are steps to make driving safer, and the same happens with the illness.

In Germany die about 3000 people each year in car crashes, but in 2020 died 30K+ people of COVID. So the problem with the epidemics is already 10 times worse than car crashes. It is obvious, that regulators are willing to tackle the problem with regulations, similar to traffic regulations. Seeing as the problem is already 10 times as big, you can expect that these regulations exceed traffic regulations - and we have a lot of these already. And germany isn't the country hit worst with the epidemic either. So yes, some regulations regarding COVID are surely made with a broad stroke, but traffic regulations had a century time to grow, time we don't have in the case of the pandemic. So regulators are struggling to find the right solutions. And I don't agree with all rules they make. But I can also see, that given the urgency and the big realm of unknowns, regulators had to make some decisions that possibly can be made better with more knowledge and more time to try out stuff.

I don't want to defend every stupid rule made. But you have to admit: Sweden tried to follow your suggestion of isolating the most endangered groups, but ended up with double the deaths per capita as germany, while hit with similar economic trouble. Instead of following such ways, we should look to countries that got away with much less trouble in dealing with the pandemic: Vietnam, Thailand, Taiwan, New Zealand, Singapore, Malaysia, Brunei, Cuba, South Korea.



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RolStoppable said:
vivster said:

Doesn't really matter. A virus is way easier to combat than established bad habits. You could say the same about smoking and drinking, but it's moot to talk about it. It's only logical to tackle the easier to solve problem first or maybe do both at the same time? It's not like people have stopped caring about other issues during the pandemic.

A virus is only easier to combat because politicians have no spine. If they weren't servants of capitalism, then it would be clear to everyone that combating a virus is not easier.

The coronavirus made peoples all around the world unite together because it was played up to be an immense threat despite being something that the vast majority was easily going to survive without any lasting drawbacks for their health. Meanwhile, there are much bigger problems with more severe consequences that keep leaving people cold. That makes it very easy to be cynical about humanity's grasp of common sense. Just like the high approval ratings of politicians who ordered strict corona measures, simply because not a lot of people died, completely ignoring that there was never going to be a big number to die because of COVID to begin with. But what can you do when the media has hammered the threat of corona into people's heads by continuously highlighting the worst cases instead of pointing to how many people got off easily.

The thing that bothers me the most about all those corona measures is that no country went with the simple idea of isolating its risk groups from the rest of the population instead of isolating everyone. The cherry on top is that old people are the most likely to not go along with the measures for reasons like having no faith in politics because they've become numb over decades of lies and deception, or having already experienced so many other crises that they know that it's always made out to be much worse than it really is.

Thankfully, the vaccines are coming. Because otherwise we would have politicians repeat the same thing again and again.

Places with fewer deaths due to corona virus, have populations that appreciate their politicans more than otherway around?
Who would have guessed.

"completely ignoreing that there was never going to be a big number to die because of COVID to begin with"

What is a big number? So far world wide, in less than 1 year, its killed more than 1.8m (offical number).
(while the true number is probably alot higher)

Also the vaccines wont magically fix things, deaths will keep riseing throughout 2021, possibly 2022.
(who can say when this goes away?)


"But what can you do when the media has hammered the threat of corona into people's heads by continuously highlighting the worst cases instead of pointing to how many people got off easily."

Even if Mortality rate is between 1,5% - 3% (offical number, going by worldometers.info).

And say,.... maybe ~10% of all that get it, have some form of lasting damage.


People focus on the bad, because you have no reason to fear the good.
Its only natural.  Also a little fear, is a good thing, if it keeps people from ignoreing it (which too many do) or forgetting we have a pandemic on our hands, and not doing their part to stop spread of it.



"The thing that bothers me the most about all those corona measures is that no country went with the simple idea of isolating its risk groups from the rest of the population instead of isolating everyone."

Sweden tried that, then regreted it, and started doing prevention too.
Basically its hard to keep staff & patients in nurseing homes isolated.
It sounds easy, but try to see how many people you can convince to lock themselves into a nurseing home for a year or two, without leaveing it.
(its the only way to really protect "at risk groups" from the rest of the population)

Also the elderly and their loved ones, will complain "my rights" "s/he's old and dying, why cant I go visit my gramps/grandma ect".

You run into issues eitherway.
Its failed everywhere they tried it (ei. keeping at risk groups safe is proveing hard).

As long as you dont lock it down, and keep staff locked in, along with patients eventually the corna gets in.