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Forums - Politics Discussion - The Stagnant Working Class

tsogud said:
Snoopy said:

Then stop voting for parties AKA the Democrat party that wants to increase the government's power. Private charities are great because there is a lot to choose from and since they are nonprofit, we know most of our money is going to a good cause instead of the man in the middle aka the government. Also, we can help people like our families or even strangers without private charities. 

We got that technology mostly due to private companies and not the government. The only exception when the government help us with technology and made our lives better is usually through military/defense spending. Which is why I don't mind it as much unless we go to useless wars or pay for useless things.

You know you can be for multiple things at once right? Being a progressive I'm for progressive policies, including the one's I mentioned above, which require government intervention and I'm also for getting money out of politics because I know getting those policies that I and the people want enacted, will be next to impossible to achieve with the current corrupted way that money can easily influence those in the political sector. I'm not against government, I'm against corrupted government.

The Republican party is not the party you want to vote for if you want to decrease the governments involvement. Republicans literally want the government to intervene between women and their doctors, that's not small government that's big government.

I'm not arguing where we got are technology from and frankly I didn't bring that point up because it's irrelevant. The government isn't really there to innovate and make scientific discoveries. Technology is a product of a society working together and building upon collective knowledge to better the entire population. Sounds a little "socialist" if you ask me.

Republicans, in general, want a smaller government and believe the role of the government is to protect our rights and nothing else. Roe vs Wade already passed and you can get an abortion in most states. The argument is they want to protect an "innocent baby's life". It's a bit of a gray area. I don't mind abortions personally unless it's way late in the cycle such as 36 weeks. Not to get off subject, I do think the government should be interfering with some of these states that think it is okay to kill a baby after it is born. That is just messed up and shouldn't be a Republican/Democrat thing at that point.

Military protection isn't socialism at all. It is something we need to protect our rights. The technology is just a great benefits thanks to military spending. Which is why i don't mind it.



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Mostly because the point of the video is silly. A process showing improvement isn't indicative of an optimal process. Correlation doesn't necessary equate to causality.



The class that benefited most from capitalism is the working class.

Going from needing to work 16h a day just to eat to 8h and have plenty of luxure is a great bonus



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Snoopy said:
tsogud said:

You know you can be for multiple things at once right? Being a progressive I'm for progressive policies, including the one's I mentioned above, which require government intervention and I'm also for getting money out of politics because I know getting those policies that I and the people want enacted, will be next to impossible to achieve with the current corrupted way that money can easily influence those in the political sector. I'm not against government, I'm against corrupted government.

The Republican party is not the party you want to vote for if you want to decrease the governments involvement. Republicans literally want the government to intervene between women and their doctors, that's not small government that's big government.

I'm not arguing where we got are technology from and frankly I didn't bring that point up because it's irrelevant. The government isn't really there to innovate and make scientific discoveries. Technology is a product of a society working together and building upon collective knowledge to better the entire population. Sounds a little "socialist" if you ask me.

Republicans, in general, want a smaller government and believe the role of the government is to protect our rights and nothing else. Roe vs Wade already passed and you can get an abortion in most states. The argument is they want to protect an "innocent baby's life". It's a bit of a gray area. I don't mind abortions personally unless it's way late in the cycle such as 36 weeks. Not to get off subject, I do think the government should be interfering with some of these states that think it is okay to kill a baby after it is born. That is just messed up and shouldn't be a Republican/Democrat thing at that point.

Military protection isn't socialism at all. It is something we need to protect our rights. The technology is just a great benefits thanks to military spending. Which is why i don't mind it.

What??? Where are you getting this info? Not one state thinks it's okay to kill a baby after it's born. And late abortions aren't even legal.

So you don't mind the government interfering if you determine the situation is "messed up" according to what you've said. Well I agree, I think it's "messed up" that so many Americans can't afford healthcare or education or housing. The government should step in and create a safety net because what is going on is "messed up."

The military is a socialism. They have free food, healthcare, and education all paid for by our taxes and orchestrated by our government. I agree it is something we need but let's not pretend it isn't a social institution. Here are a couple of articles on the matter.



 

DonFerrari said:
The class that benefited most from capitalism is the working class.

Going from needing to work 16h a day just to eat to 8h and have plenty of luxure is a great bonus

Labor laws were a byproduct of government regulation....  



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Snoopy said:

Not true, only certain aspects are better. For example, Canadians have a longer wait time and way higher taxes. Not to mention the cost for basic commodities in Canada is a lot more expensive than America's products. This is all thanks to government interference. When the U.S. government got out of certain health care aspects such as lasik eye surgery the cost went way down.

In Australia I can walk into any hospital and be seen almost instantly, for free.
Our healthcare is significantly cheaper... And we get far far far better quality care, you literally don't know what you are missing out on.

The American health system is old, inefficient, expensive and ineffective from top-to-bottom... I would rather be ill in Australia than the USA.

Snoopy said:

We can have a great safety net through private charities and we can have a lot more job opportunities and reduce artificial inflation by getting the government out of our business. Most of the big corporations that are corrupt are helped by the federal government. The biggest example is the pharmaceutical companies. It's one of the biggest reason why medical care is so expensive. They pretty much closed out all outside competition thanks to the government. Historically, there hasn't been a better time to live. Yes, we do have issues, but it pales in comparison to the past. We are living better than most past kings/ royal familes for god sakes.

Private Charities can also drive up inefficiencies as they try and make an extra buck for their own ends... Plus many charities tend to be religious in nature, lets remove religion from the equation wherever possible, freedom from religion, right?

The big pharmaceutical companies are just one aspect of your health systems inefficiencies, our Government dictates the pricing on medicine, companies still make a profit, patients get cheap medication... Everyone goes home happy.
And if you are worried it will cease innovation in the medicine field, it doesn't happen. - Plus the Government will invest in R&D anyway which reduces costs and keeps innovation happening.

The flip side is, you still get pharmaceutical companies competing against each other, thus capitalism is still at work.

Years ago there was a movement by some political parties here to almost "Americanize" parts of our healthcare system... It was a political shit storm... For good reason as it would be a regression on all fronts.
Fact is the vast majority of the western world have proven that a universal healthcare system is the way forward, the way to go to provide higher quality and cheaper care.

Snoopy said:

Making health care free makes it where people go to the hospital for the most trivial BS. Not to mention the doctors are in a hurry and more prone to make mistakes.

Doesn't happen... This is just baseless scaremongering.

Nurses and doctors will do a quick assessment of a patient to gauge how urgent a patients needs are and go from there... Often if it's just a small issue, they will tell them to go to a private clinic instead. (We have one next to the hospital here.)

DonFerrari said:
The class that benefited most from capitalism is the working class.

Going from needing to work 16h a day just to eat to 8h and have plenty of luxure is a great bonus

It was mostly left-wing socialist "unions" who made the push to 8 hour work days...
Socialism, Capitalism... None of it is intrinsically a bad thing, most western nations have found a really good balance between the two and have made some great strides. (I.E. Large swathes of Europe and Oceania.)

It's when either gets taken to far/extreme that issues really start to crop up as there are Pro's and Con's to each approach.



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Snoopy said:

Then stop voting for parties AKA the Democrat party that wants to increase the government's power. Private charities are great because there is a lot to choose from and since they are nonprofit, we know most of our money is going to a good cause instead of the man in the middle aka the government. Also, we can help people like our families or even strangers without private charities. 

We got that technology mostly due to private companies and not the government. The only exception when the government help us with technology and made our lives better is usually through military/defense spending. Which is why I don't mind it as much unless we go to useless wars or pay for useless things.

That's just flat out ridiculous.  The list of technology that derived from NASA alone is damn amazing, not to mention all the work that's been made possible by grants and public funding.



Snoopy said:
the-pi-guy said:

>wait times

Wait times are complicated to measure.  For one thing in the US a lot of people don't go at all.  Those people don't get counted in the average wait time.  

Another thing is wait times for different things differ.  

>higher taxes

Meaningless if you don't include the difference in healthcare costs.  

>government interference

Some commodities cost less because they get made in the US.  So no it's not "all thanks to government interference".  It's a complicated matter.  

> wait time

No it isn't, it's been proven Canadians have to wait a long time for health care services.

> higher taxes

No, it isn't meaningless. Canada pay more in taxes and commodities. Over the long run, they would pay a lot more than Americans.

 There are places in America where the cost of basic commodities is crazy high such as California because they are run by Democrats who support big government. That's why so many Californians are going to Republican states like Texas and Alabama. 

Republicans actually like to spend more money then most Democrats they just like to spend most of their money on stuff that benefits very few people like the military industrial complex and endless wars.



the-pi-guy said:

>wait times

Wait times are complicated to measure.  For one thing in the US a lot of people don't go at all.  Those people don't get counted in the average wait time.  

Another thing is wait times for different things differ.  

Thats the core of my issue with the argument. In Canada, everybody has to wait a bit for certain procedures. In America, we just make sure that the poor simply can't get certain procedures done so the rich don't have to wait. Sure, wait times are better in the US, but which is honestly a more just system?