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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Germany lifts ban on Nazi Symbols in Video Games

Vinther1991 said:
Barozi said:

Wow serious lack of political knowledge detected. The government can't declare any political party unconstitutional.
Only the constitutional court can do that.

I said power, not government. 

Who does it is irrelevant. Do you think it is okay to unconstitutionalise a political party? 

It matters in how difficult it would be for a government to be able to do that. How much reach/power they need to accumulate within it.

 

It's quite pointless to criticize a law based on the the manners in which an extremist party could abuse it once said party holds a stranglehold of all sectors of governance; because at that point, said extremist party could bend the laws as they see fit, regardless.

 

The legislature that was put in place to facilitate the suppression of extremist parties, particularly of far right nationalists, was set up at a time when all agreed that the danger was evident and large enough for its suppression to be of constitutional significance to the new republic. 



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palou said:
Vinther1991 said:

I said power, not government. 

Who does it is irrelevant. Do you think it is okay to unconstitutionalise a political party? 

It matters in how difficult it would be for a government to be able to do that. How much reach/power they need to accumulate within it.

 

It's quite pointless to criticize a law based on the the manners in which an extremist party could abuse it once said party holds a stranglehold of all sectors of governance; because at that point, said extremist party could bend the laws as they see fit, regardless.

 

The legislature that was put in place to facilitate the suppression of extremist parties, particularly of far right nationalists, was set up at a time when all agreed that the danger was evident and large enough for its suppression to be of constitutional significance to the new republic. 

That is true. But I think it's the principle of making  a party unconstitutional that is wrong.

I agree that it can make sense in the aftermath of a world war to make the responsible party unconstitutional, but to still have it be that so many years later, is grotesque. 

It's not like Germany has less right wing extremism than other western countries where you can use the symbolism whatever way you like. Germany is doing nrather poor in that regard. 



Vinther1991 said:
Barozi said:

Wow serious lack of political knowledge detected. The government can't declare any political party unconstitutional.
Only the constitutional court can do that.

I said power, not government. 

Who does it is irrelevant. Do you think it is okay to unconstitutionalise a political party? 

and the difference is?
They absolutely need to be part of the government for it to make at least little sense. You can't have power as a political party and not be part of the government.

You act like the court targets random parties. Of course it's acceptable to unconstitutionalise a party when it's trying to fight against the basic principles of the constitution. That's exactly what it means. Why should the constitution allow parties that actively try to abolish it? That would make no sense at all.



Vinther1991 said:
palou said:

It matters in how difficult it would be for a government to be able to do that. How much reach/power they need to accumulate within it.

 

It's quite pointless to criticize a law based on the the manners in which an extremist party could abuse it once said party holds a stranglehold of all sectors of governance; because at that point, said extremist party could bend the laws as they see fit, regardless.

 

The legislature that was put in place to facilitate the suppression of extremist parties, particularly of far right nationalists, was set up at a time when all agreed that the danger was evident and large enough for its suppression to be of constitutional significance to the new republic. 

That is true. But I think it's the principle of making  a party unconstitutional that is wrong.

I agree that it can make sense in the aftermath of a world war to make the responsible party unconstitutional, but to still have it be that so many years later, is grotesque. 

It's not like Germany has less right wing extremism than other western countries where you can use the symbolism whatever way you like. Germany is doing nrather poor in that regard. 

I think the opposite is true. It's remarkable that we have so few right wing extremists considering we were THE fascist country of the past century.
If you look at other European countries, fascist and right wing parties are much stronger than here so no idea what you're talking about. (Poland, France, Italy, Hungary, Switzerland, Austria etc.)




Vinther1991 said:
palou said:

It matters in how difficult it would be for a government to be able to do that. How much reach/power they need to accumulate within it.

 

It's quite pointless to criticize a law based on the the manners in which an extremist party could abuse it once said party holds a stranglehold of all sectors of governance; because at that point, said extremist party could bend the laws as they see fit, regardless.

 

The legislature that was put in place to facilitate the suppression of extremist parties, particularly of far right nationalists, was set up at a time when all agreed that the danger was evident and large enough for its suppression to be of constitutional significance to the new republic. 

That is true. But I think it's the principle of making  a party unconstitutional that is wrong.

I agree that it can make sense in the aftermath of a world war to make the responsible party unconstitutional, but to still have it be that so many years later, is grotesque. 

It's not like Germany has less right wing extremism than other western countries where you can use the symbolism whatever way you like. Germany is doing nrather poor in that regard. 

Compared to the US and especially most other European countries Germany indeed has far less far right voters in comparison.



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Barozi said:
Aeolus451 said:

I wasn't saying they were censoring their entire history, Sherlock. I only said that they shouldn't censor their history (as in any part of it) because it's history. Banning symbolism or the showing of something in a medium is a form of censorship regardless of the reasoning. I can't believe they banned it for that reason because it's so fucking stupid. Nazis are always portrayed as villians in games. A politician would have to be incredibly ignorant of video games to use that as an excuse. 

My post was fine. It was meant as a one time post as "I agree with lifting the ban because history should be preserved". That's it. If you want to argue over stupid shit, have at it with someone else. I don't care what you think of my post.

That's just not true. There exist lots of games where the nazis are the heroes. Most of them from the 80s and 90s.

Really? I haven't seen any but I'll take your word for it. "Nazis are almost always portrayed..." should suffice then.



Vinther1991 said:
MrWayne said:

Section 86
Dissemination of propaganda material of unconstitutional organisations

(1) Whosoever within Germany disseminates or produces, stocks, imports or exports or makes publicly accessible through data storage media for dissemination within Germany or abroad, propaganda material

1.  of a political party which has been declared unconstitutional by the Federal Constitutional Court or a political party or organisation which has been held by final decision to be a surrogate organisation of such a party;

2.  of an organisation which has been banned by final decision because it is directed against the constitutional order or against the idea of the comity of nations or which has been held by final decision to be a surrogate organisation of such a banned organisation;

3.  of a government, organisation or institution outside the Federal Republic of Germany active in pursuing the objectives of one of the parties or organisations indicated in Nos 1 and 2 above; or

4.  propaganda materials the contents of which are intended to further the aims of a former National Socialist organisation, shall be liable to imprisonment not exceeding three years or a fine.

(2) Propaganda materials within the meaning of subsection (1) above shall only be written materials (section 11(3)) the content of which is directed against the free, democratic constitutional order or the idea of the comity of nations.

(3) Subsection (1) above shall not apply if the propaganda materials or the act is meant to serve civil education, to avert unconstitutional movements, to promote art or science, research or teaching, the reporting about current or historical events or similar purposes.

(4) If the guilt is of a minor nature, the court may order a discharge under this provision.

https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_stgb/englisch_stgb.html#p0868

Before you criticize something you should check what you are criticizing. Also I don't think it needs an explanation why there is an extra emphasis for National Socialist organisations.

And I don't think the law is stupid unless someone wants to wave a extremist flag in his front garden...

Okay, so some Marxist pieces of imagery seem to have also been subjected to this law. Doesn't make it any better. What if AfD gets the power sometime in the future and decides to declare the green party unconstitutional? Would you be fine with that?

What makes this law good in your eyes? 

Although I warn always for such an occurence, we have separation of powers. The government or parliament can't declare something unconstitutional, it is the constitution court (Bundesverfassungsgericht). If though the AfD gets big enough to change the constitution or simply overthrow it - well then they could do whatever in any case.



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Cool. Hard to imagine WW2 games without those symbols.