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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Germany lifts ban on Nazi Symbols in Video Games

Vinther1991 said:
Hope it's soon time to get rid of that stupid law completely. Where's the ban on Marxist imagery or any other political imagery?

Section 86
Dissemination of propaganda material of unconstitutional organisations

(1) Whosoever within Germany disseminates or produces, stocks, imports or exports or makes publicly accessible through data storage media for dissemination within Germany or abroad, propaganda material

1.  of a political party which has been declared unconstitutional by the Federal Constitutional Court or a political party or organisation which has been held by final decision to be a surrogate organisation of such a party;

2.  of an organisation which has been banned by final decision because it is directed against the constitutional order or against the idea of the comity of nations or which has been held by final decision to be a surrogate organisation of such a banned organisation;

3.  of a government, organisation or institution outside the Federal Republic of Germany active in pursuing the objectives of one of the parties or organisations indicated in Nos 1 and 2 above; or

4.  propaganda materials the contents of which are intended to further the aims of a former National Socialist organisation, shall be liable to imprisonment not exceeding three years or a fine.

(2) Propaganda materials within the meaning of subsection (1) above shall only be written materials (section 11(3)) the content of which is directed against the free, democratic constitutional order or the idea of the comity of nations.

(3) Subsection (1) above shall not apply if the propaganda materials or the act is meant to serve civil education, to avert unconstitutional movements, to promote art or science, research or teaching, the reporting about current or historical events or similar purposes.

(4) If the guilt is of a minor nature, the court may order a discharge under this provision.

https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_stgb/englisch_stgb.html#p0868

Before you criticize something you should check what you are criticizing. Also I don't think it needs an explanation why there is an extra emphasis for National Socialist organisations.

And I don't think the law is stupid unless someone wants to wave a extremist flag in his front garden...

Last edited by MrWayne - on 12 August 2018

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CaptainExplosion said:
RespectDecena said:
Even if it's related to something good it seems things always end up with people trying to rip each other's anuses apart.

Well since the ban included Wolfenstein games, now German gamers can freely enjoy ripping Nazis to shreds like the rest of us. ^^ Except maybe Israel, don't know if the ban was lifted there.

Well, we got versions of Wolfenstein censored by Bethesda. It's 'the regime' instead of the Nazis and it's chancelor Heiler (actually funny because it means healer) instead of Hitler, so basically we got Nazis that aren't called Nazis.

Bethesda did self-censoring though and went way further than would've been 'necessary'.



MrWayne said:
Vinther1991 said:
Hope it's soon time to get rid of that stupid law completely. Where's the ban on Marxist imagery or any other political imagery?

Section 86
Dissemination of propaganda material of unconstitutional organisations

(1) Whosoever within Germany disseminates or produces, stocks, imports or exports or makes publicly accessible through data storage media for dissemination within Germany or abroad, propaganda material

1.  of a political party which has been declared unconstitutional by the Federal Constitutional Court or a political party or organisation which has been held by final decision to be a surrogate organisation of such a party;

2.  of an organisation which has been banned by final decision because it is directed against the constitutional order or against the idea of the comity of nations or which has been held by final decision to be a surrogate organisation of such a banned organisation;

3.  of a government, organisation or institution outside the Federal Republic of Germany active in pursuing the objectives of one of the parties or organisations indicated in Nos 1 and 2 above; or

4.  propaganda materials the contents of which are intended to further the aims of a former National Socialist organisation, shall be liable to imprisonment not exceeding three years or a fine.

(2) Propaganda materials within the meaning of subsection (1) above shall only be written materials (section 11(3)) the content of which is directed against the free, democratic constitutional order or the idea of the comity of nations.

(3) Subsection (1) above shall not apply if the propaganda materials or the act is meant to serve civil education, to avert unconstitutional movements, to promote art or science, research or teaching, the reporting about current or historical events or similar purposes.

(4) If the guilt is of a minor nature, the court may order a discharge under this provision.

https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_stgb/englisch_stgb.html#p0868

Before you criticize something you should check what you are criticizing. Also I don't think it needs an explanation why there is an extra emphasis for National Socialist organisations.

And I don't think the law is stupid unless someone wants to wave a extremist flag in his front garden...

Okay, so some Marxist pieces of imagery seem to have also been subjected to this law. Doesn't make it any better. What if AfD gets the power sometime in the future and decides to declare the green party unconstitutional? Would you be fine with that?

What makes this law good in your eyes? 



Vinther1991 said:
MrWayne said:

Section 86
Dissemination of propaganda material of unconstitutional organisations

(1) Whosoever within Germany disseminates or produces, stocks, imports or exports or makes publicly accessible through data storage media for dissemination within Germany or abroad, propaganda material

1.  of a political party which has been declared unconstitutional by the Federal Constitutional Court or a political party or organisation which has been held by final decision to be a surrogate organisation of such a party;

2.  of an organisation which has been banned by final decision because it is directed against the constitutional order or against the idea of the comity of nations or which has been held by final decision to be a surrogate organisation of such a banned organisation;

3.  of a government, organisation or institution outside the Federal Republic of Germany active in pursuing the objectives of one of the parties or organisations indicated in Nos 1 and 2 above; or

4.  propaganda materials the contents of which are intended to further the aims of a former National Socialist organisation, shall be liable to imprisonment not exceeding three years or a fine.

(2) Propaganda materials within the meaning of subsection (1) above shall only be written materials (section 11(3)) the content of which is directed against the free, democratic constitutional order or the idea of the comity of nations.

(3) Subsection (1) above shall not apply if the propaganda materials or the act is meant to serve civil education, to avert unconstitutional movements, to promote art or science, research or teaching, the reporting about current or historical events or similar purposes.

(4) If the guilt is of a minor nature, the court may order a discharge under this provision.

https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_stgb/englisch_stgb.html#p0868

Before you criticize something you should check what you are criticizing. Also I don't think it needs an explanation why there is an extra emphasis for National Socialist organisations.

And I don't think the law is stupid unless someone wants to wave a extremist flag in his front garden...

Okay, so some Marxist pieces of imagery seem to have also been subjected to this law. Doesn't make it any better. What if AfD gets the power sometime in the future and decides to declare the green party unconstitutional? Would you be fine with that?

What makes this law good in your eyes? 

Wow serious lack of political knowledge detected. The government can't declare any political party unconstitutional.
Only the constitutional court can do that.



Barozi said:
Vinther1991 said:

Okay, so some Marxist pieces of imagery seem to have also been subjected to this law. Doesn't make it any better. What if AfD gets the power sometime in the future and decides to declare the green party unconstitutional? Would you be fine with that?

What makes this law good in your eyes? 

Wow serious lack of political knowledge detected. The government can't declare any political party unconstitutional.
Only the constitutional court can do that.

I said power, not government. 

Who does it is irrelevant. Do you think it is okay to unconstitutionalise a political party? 



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Vinther1991 said:
Barozi said:

Wow serious lack of political knowledge detected. The government can't declare any political party unconstitutional.
Only the constitutional court can do that.

I said power, not government. 

Who does it is irrelevant. Do you think it is okay to unconstitutionalise a political party? 

It matters in how difficult it would be for a government to be able to do that. How much reach/power they need to accumulate within it.

 

It's quite pointless to criticize a law based on the the manners in which an extremist party could abuse it once said party holds a stranglehold of all sectors of governance; because at that point, said extremist party could bend the laws as they see fit, regardless.

 

The legislature that was put in place to facilitate the suppression of extremist parties, particularly of far right nationalists, was set up at a time when all agreed that the danger was evident and large enough for its suppression to be of constitutional significance to the new republic. 



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palou said:
Vinther1991 said:

I said power, not government. 

Who does it is irrelevant. Do you think it is okay to unconstitutionalise a political party? 

It matters in how difficult it would be for a government to be able to do that. How much reach/power they need to accumulate within it.

 

It's quite pointless to criticize a law based on the the manners in which an extremist party could abuse it once said party holds a stranglehold of all sectors of governance; because at that point, said extremist party could bend the laws as they see fit, regardless.

 

The legislature that was put in place to facilitate the suppression of extremist parties, particularly of far right nationalists, was set up at a time when all agreed that the danger was evident and large enough for its suppression to be of constitutional significance to the new republic. 

That is true. But I think it's the principle of making  a party unconstitutional that is wrong.

I agree that it can make sense in the aftermath of a world war to make the responsible party unconstitutional, but to still have it be that so many years later, is grotesque. 

It's not like Germany has less right wing extremism than other western countries where you can use the symbolism whatever way you like. Germany is doing nrather poor in that regard. 



Vinther1991 said:
Barozi said:

Wow serious lack of political knowledge detected. The government can't declare any political party unconstitutional.
Only the constitutional court can do that.

I said power, not government. 

Who does it is irrelevant. Do you think it is okay to unconstitutionalise a political party? 

and the difference is?
They absolutely need to be part of the government for it to make at least little sense. You can't have power as a political party and not be part of the government.

You act like the court targets random parties. Of course it's acceptable to unconstitutionalise a party when it's trying to fight against the basic principles of the constitution. That's exactly what it means. Why should the constitution allow parties that actively try to abolish it? That would make no sense at all.



Vinther1991 said:
palou said:

It matters in how difficult it would be for a government to be able to do that. How much reach/power they need to accumulate within it.

 

It's quite pointless to criticize a law based on the the manners in which an extremist party could abuse it once said party holds a stranglehold of all sectors of governance; because at that point, said extremist party could bend the laws as they see fit, regardless.

 

The legislature that was put in place to facilitate the suppression of extremist parties, particularly of far right nationalists, was set up at a time when all agreed that the danger was evident and large enough for its suppression to be of constitutional significance to the new republic. 

That is true. But I think it's the principle of making  a party unconstitutional that is wrong.

I agree that it can make sense in the aftermath of a world war to make the responsible party unconstitutional, but to still have it be that so many years later, is grotesque. 

It's not like Germany has less right wing extremism than other western countries where you can use the symbolism whatever way you like. Germany is doing nrather poor in that regard. 

I think the opposite is true. It's remarkable that we have so few right wing extremists considering we were THE fascist country of the past century.
If you look at other European countries, fascist and right wing parties are much stronger than here so no idea what you're talking about. (Poland, France, Italy, Hungary, Switzerland, Austria etc.)




Vinther1991 said:
palou said:

It matters in how difficult it would be for a government to be able to do that. How much reach/power they need to accumulate within it.

 

It's quite pointless to criticize a law based on the the manners in which an extremist party could abuse it once said party holds a stranglehold of all sectors of governance; because at that point, said extremist party could bend the laws as they see fit, regardless.

 

The legislature that was put in place to facilitate the suppression of extremist parties, particularly of far right nationalists, was set up at a time when all agreed that the danger was evident and large enough for its suppression to be of constitutional significance to the new republic. 

That is true. But I think it's the principle of making  a party unconstitutional that is wrong.

I agree that it can make sense in the aftermath of a world war to make the responsible party unconstitutional, but to still have it be that so many years later, is grotesque. 

It's not like Germany has less right wing extremism than other western countries where you can use the symbolism whatever way you like. Germany is doing nrather poor in that regard. 

Compared to the US and especially most other European countries Germany indeed has far less far right voters in comparison.