forest-spirit said:
Veknoid_Outcast said:
I think the problem here is that folks are painting with broad strokes. All feminists are x or all feminists are y. It's entirely without nuance.
People subscribe to many different -isms and interpret them in different ways. Feminism for one person might be more militant than feminism for another. The same holds true for Catholicism, communism, liberalism, conservatism, etc.
It would be easy to look at a few extreme examples and indict an entire movement but that would also be grossly irresponsible. I think we should all endeavor to capture the complexity of political movements instead of hurling about stereotypes and generalizations.
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naruball said:
I've been to two meetings of feminists and I was pleasantly surprised that though the hardcore ones were all about women's rights, the topics that they discussed and the reaction by most attendees were about men's rights too. They talked about how women are pressured to have a certain type of body and then female feminists would jump in and say, men don't have it much better since they're not allowed to show their feelings or they will be criticised by both men and women. They talked about words that they think are harmful, such as pussy or reference to "having balls" as a good thing, because both harm men and women. They brought up the need for paternity leave (though they said nothing about child custody).
My point is, how many times have people, who accuse feminist of all sorts of things, actually listened to them?
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I used to be a feminist-hater back in the days. Why? Because I, like so many, used the radicals to judge the entire movement. But then I took the time to do some research and discovered how little Iittle I actually knew about feminism. For starters it's a very, very broad definition and while most feminists seems to have about the same main goals, the ways to get there differs a lot between different groups of feminists. In Sweden, and I assume in many other countries as well, most political parties have their own groups of feminists, which of course helps to broaden the spectrum. In general, feminists on the left tend to be more positive towards quotations while those on the right tend to be more critical of such solutions. So political affiliation is important to take into consideration when talking feminism as [most] feminists don't live in a bubble unaffected by other ideologies.
Feminism only being for women and their rights and well-beings was another misconception of mine, and I have since then realised how feminism also benefits men and how it has been beneficial for me personally. I'm not a "manly man", I don't fit into the stereotypical man who loves sports and plays with cars and engines. I'm into home decoration, and it's nice to not get weird looks or be called fag because I like to spend money on fancy candles and pillows. It being as natural for women as for men to work and earn their own money is great for me, as it means I'm no longer expected to pay whenever I go out with a woman, and once I manage to catch a one I, not exactly born a leader, won't be expected to take on the traditional head of the family role. If me and my partner have children and later break up it won't be a piece of cake for her to take the kids away from me, like it used to be. The idea that it's more natural for the mother to take care of the kids is dying and with that comes more responsibilites for us men, but it also strenghens our rights to be with our children. It's also becoming more normal for men to stay home from work to spend time with their newborn child.
I've also had some experience with norm criticism, which led to another awakening as I was sure that norm criticism was a tool of Satan. But it wasn't at all the one-sided anti-white male circle jerk I had expected. In fact, we spent a lot of time discussing the demonisation of men and how it's more "ok" to have blacks make fun of whites than the other way around and whether that should be seen as acceptable or not. And for the record most participants were women, the lecturer was a woman and despite that me and the other guys could voice our opinions without getting killed.
About the relevancy of feminism today, I definitely think it's still needed and will be for the foreseeable future. We still have issues with women getting paid less in general (in Sweden at least), men's violence against women is still a huge problem and men are still greatly overrepresented when it comes to sexual harrassment and rape. Also, feminism today often includes standing up for LGTB rights, amongst other topics.
I also view feminism as the best bet for men fighting for their rights, and I think men's situations will get more and more publicity as more men join the movement. I know there are alternatives to feminism but I honestly view those as half-assed attempts at best.
There's a comic that I feel nails the problem with men's issues not getting enough publicity. Unfortunately I don't have a scan of it (and it would probably be illegal to post it anyway) but the dialogue, roughly translated by moi, goes something like this:
Man: Did you know it's the International Men's Day today? Nope, of course you didn't because not a single publication has written about it. There's a lot of ruckus on Women's Day but on Men's Day everyone becomes quiet.
Where are the articles about destructive machoculture and how it harms young boys? Where's the debate regarding high suicide rates, low school results and how men are oppressed in custody disputes, huh?
Woman: Absolutely! You should go out and protest or make articles about it. We need men's perspective on the male role.
The man glares at her.
Man: Hey, I'm not the feminist here. Why don't you write about it?
I know it's just my personal experience but too often have I seen this mentality amongst men and I find that sad, because there are issues that deserves more attention. It's becoming increasingly difficult for men to work in preschools because of pedophilia and how men are under constant surveillance simply for being men, and it's getting to the point where men just won't bother with those jobs because of the risk of being falsely accused of pedophilia. There's still a certain taboo regarding violence against men in relationships, talking about men's feelings in general, etc.
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