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Forums - Sony Discussion - Sony: climate "not healthy" for PlayStation Vita successor

JustBeingReal said:
Dr.Henry_Killinger said:
Scisca said:


I think the only way a new handheld could work is if it was a PS4 Portable. The most important thing being it would have to share the same library of games. They'd have to work on the handheld out of the box - without any sort of extra work put in by the devs. Also all games would have to be cross-buy on PSN. It would be acceptable for it to somehow scale the graphics down a bit, but the previous point would have to stand - everything works. I don't believe a handheld with its own unique library is possible or viable at all in this market.

Remote Play invalidates this. Assume for a minute that this PS4 portable could exist, to beat out remote play, a free app, so it costs 0$, it would at the very least need to store these games on an HDD, which is anywhere from 50-100$ in terms of price to scale so to speak, 500gb to 1tb a very rough estimate. It's already 100$ more expensive than the free app, and we don't even have a screen, gpu, or cpu yet.

The App may be free, but the use of mobile data isn't, also the costs to rent games through PS Now are also not free.

A dedicated handheld is a one off cost for the platform, then the costs of each game, as I said in my other reply to you said handheld gets support from a pool of developers that are capable of making a much better experience than the freebie titles that get given away and people may pay the odd bit here and there to cheat their way through multiple repetitive levels of a freemium title.

Now of course there's the odd game made by indies or a dedicated App game developer that may be good, but those are few and far between and certainly not on the same level as a developer that has been making awesome experiences for years.

Remote play doesn't invalidate a thing, it's one area of the market, certainly not the entire thing, there's also the issue that remote play has latency issues and cannot provide a latency free experience of local hardware inside of a device.

 

There's a place for everything in this modern world and to ignore something just because is pretty silly IMO.

You want to compare a subscription service that is a necessity to a luxury item that only has one function? Don't you think that is pretty silly?

Entry cost is what matters to consumers, especially when these phones are traded in a year's subscription might be 75-100$ then you upgrade it to an even better phone with better specs vs a one off cost on outdated hardware, is that even a contest?

We are talking about economics here, whether or not it makes sense to do something. If the market exists, it doesn't always makes sense to go for it.



In this day and age, with the Internet, ignorance is a choice! And they're still choosing Ignorance! - Dr. Filthy Frank

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Dr.Henry_Killinger said:

My point exactly. People are saying, oh why don't Sony just pull a Nintendo with their handhelds. Not to mention price subsidies in smartphones.

No gawd damned chance.

These "free phones" are mostly for people who can't calculate. These subsidies are just hidden follow-up costs.

I bought my smartphone 2 years ago for 300 € and have to pay 3€ per month for internet flat (it gets slower after a few 100 MB, but I'm patient) and telephone calls (free to all home lines in my country and free to other cell phones in the same mobile net)... so ~400 € in 2 years (300 + 24x3 + a few phone calls in other mobile nets).

Most people I know with "purchase plans" have to pay 30 - 60 € per month... so 720 - 1440 € in 2 years.



Dr.Henry_Killinger said:
JustBeingReal said:

Nothing that I wrote wasn't contradictory, not in the slightest.

Making games suited for the market isn't Nintendo's strategy, it's good general business sense, has absolutely nothing to do with Nintendo specifically and it's also not something that Nintendo does on the 3ds in the west, they certainly aren't getting major western 3rd party support on 3DS, 3DS doesn't have games like The Witcher, COD, Battlefield or the like on handheld, those games are however on PS4, XB1, they were on 360 and PS3, because those companies make their own games suited to that audience and thus the big 3rd party publishers put those games on those console platforms.

This would undoubtedly happen too if a company like Sony or Nintendo made their own 1st party games that were targeted towards and sold to the audience that buys 3rd party software too.

Actually there is, which is why the 3rd party games aren't released on any handhelds anymore and it's a huge mistake on Sony and Nintendo's part to not cater to that audience on a handheld platform that is exclusive to them, hell Nintendo doesn't even provide their own games for that market on home consoles, hence why they lack hardware sales on Wii U, it's definitely the biggest reason why Wii U doesn't sell that well around the globe.

No Vita was not the PS3 mini, for one thing Vita wasn't complicated to develop games for, also Vita doesn't have built-in memory storage for it's games and finally Vita lacks software that appeals to the biggest section of the market, you only have to look at PS3 exclusive software line-up, it's only gotten better western focused AAA titles that you can't get on any other platform, Vita on the other hand has been ignored for the most part, at best getting the odd game here and there suited to that market.

SCE has it's own unique games, some of the best talent in the world when it comes to making such experiences, those developers used to make such games for PSP, but PS Vita didn't get anywhere near as much love, maybe in the Japanese area of the market, but not the western style games.

The whole point of my post, which you're ignoring is the uniqueness of 1st party games and the fact that those titles, being uniquely available on a dedicated portable games system would definitely sell hardware, hell it happens on console, people have shown they still choose home consoles to game on, because they can get a different kind of experience on that platform, because said platform has access to games that are made by very talented developers and those games appeal to the the same kinds of people that buy 3rd party games.

TBH it shouldn't be a case of one or the other, we live in a technological world, with ever expanding options for how people can gain access to their entertainment, there's no reason why a dedicated gaming handheld can't exist within the market, unless developers don't support it, which is what we've found has happened on Vita, compared to consoles of today and PSP of old.

They aren't, for one thing no device is free, you've basically tried to use a fallacy to prove your point, it's a red herring and just isn't how it is.

I guess you could somewhat argue that some people have mobile phones anyway, but those platforms for entertainment still required money to change hands to pay for the device in the 1st place, it's not the case for quality tablets and Sony can somewhat subsidize the costs of hardware by selling more games, which is just how it works on consoles.

No mobile Phone, Tablet or whatever costs nothing, in fact in all cases the ones that are capable of providing a good experience cost hundreds of pounds or dollars, similar prices to a home console and they also lack the quality of games that you find on those systems, a dedicated portable gaming device has something mobile phones don't have and that's software development talent that has been in the industry for years proving how good the games they make are.

 

It's an outright fact that the very developers that make exclusives, 1st party games are inaccessible to the handheld market, because Sony, Nintendo, etc hold that development talent, it's a huge bonus and one that both companies should use to carve out thier portion of the market once again.

Obviously Sony and Nintendo could allow their studios to make mobile versions of their exclusives, but then they'd have to develop for a bunch of different specs of device, where as with a single handheld device they know the specs, if it shares architecture and API with the home consoles then using their game engines already made for those factors it becomes easy to make experiences for a portable platform.

The mobile market is lacking games made by the talent that works on consoles, we also don't see the very 3rd party games frpm other developers making the same level of experiences that you get on consoles (and PCs) on mobiles, so it would undoubtedly fill a demand to have that come back to the portable space.

If a market exists, which hasn't been catered to, then it's untapped business, revenue and profit that quite frankly is worth trying to sell products too.

It doesn't just need to be a matter of releasing old games from aging libraries of content, but also new exclusives to set it apart from other platforms, like PS4, PS VR and Mobile. PS Now is something that will work on any piece of hardware with the right input controls and a connection to the internet, Sony having another syste made to use it well, which is also mobile, with proper controls just means Sony are actually taking that platform more seriously than only using on a select few devices.

Having a new dedicated handheld doesn't mean they're abandoning anything besides maybe the 1st PS Vita, I really don't see how you can make out like having a new handheld gaming device means Sony will abandon PS4, that's a pretty silly thing to claim would happen.

Actually 3DS has had better support than Wii U has, hell Wii and basically all of those other platforms seem to have been better supported than Wii U has, the lack of a Zelda, Metroid, etc proves this, but still those platforms all lack the level of western software support that all but the Vita Playstation platforms have been given.

The very lack of AAA 1st party support, targeted towards the western market is the issue here, because if that was present then those games would be bought by the 3rd party gaming market and 3rd party publishers would have a market to put their games on.

Nintendo haven't supported those areas of the market for ages, even on consoles, their handhelds have lacked that too for way too long. PSP had this kind of game support, PS Vita had very little of it, PS4 gets it and thus the games come, sales follow.

No one can really deny what I'm saying here, if a platform lacks a certain kind of software, then there's no way it's going to appeal to that market, a proper dedicated gaming portable, with the kind of games people can play on consoles being made for the handheld market would sell.

Maybe Nintendo will get it if they merge their handheld and console platforms with the fusion thing rumored, anyway you really can't doubt that if you don't have software that a platform is going to tank. Indies and eastern focused software, with a tiny token amount of western focused AAA games isn't going to cut it and mobile Apps providing casual stuff like Candycrush doesn't make up for a lack of proper, historically established software developers not supporting those platforms.

First of all:

 

Irregardless of everything that you said that I don't have time to respond to. The fact remains that Sony cannot compete with this, and Nintendo barely competes against this. 

Yes money is exchanged...but entry price is what matters here.


That is in no way an argument for what I'm saying.

Sony and Nintendo can absolutely have their share of the market, because they have the development talent to provide what has always been appealing about portable gaming devices and that is games that you can't get on any other platform.

A mobile phone that you have to pay a monthly cost for isn't free, the montly fee is the cost.

That mobile phone doesn't have access to the very games that would sell a decent portable dedictated gaming device.

If Sony didn't make games for PS4, indies and 3rd party weren't supporting it and Sony just released the piece of hardware by itself it wouldn't sell, the portable gaming market isn't some special case here, it's logic really, make appealing games you can only get on that kind of a platform and the system will sell.

To deny that a market exists because someone isn't catering towards it is ludicrous!



I'm so looking forward to the death of dedicated handhelds, finally no more "buhu why isn't this game that's technically way superior and more enjoyable to play on a big screen on my handheld device as well?" and "why don't they just make X for this handheld, it would surely sell a ton" or "they would just have to do this different and this handheld would sell gangbusters, there's totally a huge market that would rather play the same games they could play in a better version on the big screen on a small handheld"



That's wise of Sony to leave that market alone and just focus on other things.



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Dr.Henry_Killinger said:
JustBeingReal said:
Dr.Henry_Killinger said:
Scisca said:


I think the only way a new handheld could work is if it was a PS4 Portable. The most important thing being it would have to share the same library of games. They'd have to work on the handheld out of the box - without any sort of extra work put in by the devs. Also all games would have to be cross-buy on PSN. It would be acceptable for it to somehow scale the graphics down a bit, but the previous point would have to stand - everything works. I don't believe a handheld with its own unique library is possible or viable at all in this market.

Remote Play invalidates this. Assume for a minute that this PS4 portable could exist, to beat out remote play, a free app, so it costs 0$, it would at the very least need to store these games on an HDD, which is anywhere from 50-100$ in terms of price to scale so to speak, 500gb to 1tb a very rough estimate. It's already 100$ more expensive than the free app, and we don't even have a screen, gpu, or cpu yet.

The App may be free, but the use of mobile data isn't, also the costs to rent games through PS Now are also not free.

A dedicated handheld is a one off cost for the platform, then the costs of each game, as I said in my other reply to you said handheld gets support from a pool of developers that are capable of making a much better experience than the freebie titles that get given away and people may pay the odd bit here and there to cheat their way through multiple repetitive levels of a freemium title.

Now of course there's the odd game made by indies or a dedicated App game developer that may be good, but those are few and far between and certainly not on the same level as a developer that has been making awesome experiences for years.

Remote play doesn't invalidate a thing, it's one area of the market, certainly not the entire thing, there's also the issue that remote play has latency issues and cannot provide a latency free experience of local hardware inside of a device.

 

There's a place for everything in this modern world and to ignore something just because is pretty silly IMO.

You want to compare a subscription service that is a necessity to a luxury item that only has one function? Don't you think that is pretty silly?

Entry cost is what matters to consumers, especially when these phones are traded in a year's subscription might be 75-100$ then you upgrade it to an even better phone with better specs vs a one off cost on outdated hardware, is that even a contest?

We are talking about economics here, whether or not it makes sense to do something. If the market exists, it doesn't always makes sense to go for it.

How is a mobile phone contract a necessity, it's no less of a luxury than a gaming device, since when did a mobile phone become Air, Water or Food?

Those things are the only necessities of life!

You're ignoring the point here anyway, said mobile phone doesn't have access to the developers that make console games, a dedicated gaming handheld would, the point is to provide better games, it's meant for the kind of person that wants better games to play, compared to the stuff you can access through Mobile Phones and Tablets.

Gamers really don't care if they have to pay for a new device if it means they get a better quality of experience to take with them, where they want to play.

Also PS Now is an additional cost and data costs add to the price of the whole thing here too, those date costs aren't an issue if you can play those games locally on a handheld gaming device.

Entry costs isn't what matters, the full cost is what matters when it comes to paying for a mobile phone and the comtract, phones and those deals are marked up ridiculously high.

The whole point is the kind of games people can access, 1st party developers owned by Sony aren't making games for the mobile phones on the same level as a home console, that's the point and if you tell people that they can play that kind of experience if they buy a reasonably priced new Playstation Portable gaming device it's an option available to people.

 

If a market exists then it's potential money to be made, that's all that matters to a business such as Sony. If something isn't being tapped into then you're missing an opportunity, obviously it has to be worthwhile, but who says it isn't considering people buy console games for their home, there's really little difference if you can play that level of experience on the move.



I'm not shocked.. but I'm more dissapointed...



It was the obvious conclusion. Smartphones pretty much killed this arm of their business.
Hopefully the silver lining is that they'll keep the Vita going for a few more years and keep getting indies on it etc etc. There's no reason not to!



DerNebel said:
I'm so looking forward to the death of dedicated handhelds, finally no more "buhu why isn't this game that's technically way superior and more enjoyable to play on a big screen on my handheld device as well?" and "why don't they just make X for this handheld, it would surely sell a ton" or "they would just have to do this different and this handheld would sell gangbusters, there's totally a huge market that would rather play the same games they could play in a better version on the big screen on a small handheld"

That's a very rude. Handhelds are my favorite platform <3



They have a succesor, it's called the z-line series mobile phones with ps now installed.