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Forums - Sony - The Order: 1886 Is Actually Quite Innovative; it’s Time to Shelve that Boring, Generic Excuse to Bash it

I would just like to point out that innovations in rendering tech do not equal innovations in gaming, since games are first and foremost an interactive medium and if these new techniques do not in any way impact the actual experience and mechanics it's not an innovation to the game, just engine tech. And that's my personal concern is that they are under extreme pressure to make it an excellent show piece. They're a young developer and putting this much weight on them could be a problem. Here's an idea: instead of Sony and the media pressuring these guys to be a super team, they just ask they make a good game? A complete lack of innovation doesn't mean lack of originality nor does it mean lack of quality. If the Order 1886 is fun and engaging without doing one thing new, then that's a success.



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Intrinsic said:
curl-6 said:

Just to be clear, I am NOT saying "it will suck cos it's not innovative".

I just hardly think the things described in the OP are innovative.

Ok, two questions. 

 

  1. what is your idea of an innovative game, and by that I mean a game that is doing a majority of things that's have never been done before in games released in the last 10 years?
  2. Let's assume that the points pointed out in the op doesn't qualify as innovation in your book (which is perfectly fine) with a thorough understanding of what it ,means for a game to be innovative do you feel the games criticism is justified? 
Its one thing to day a game is boring, or doesn't play well or even that its broken. its another thing to say its not innovative. Like look at this,
"the gunplay in the game feels great, the weapons are perfectly weighted and they seem to pack a punch, the cover system works great and how the game seamlessly goes from gameplay to cut scenes is beautifully done, but the game just lacks innovation. I felt I was playing another third person shooter"
Wtf??? That was an actual criticism on the game. And that is what I find shocking. So the games biggest flaw is that its a third person shooter??????

 

I hesitate to judge a game that isn't out yet, and I'm not going to do so for The Order until I get the chance to have a shot for myself. I don't believe innovation is an essential component of a quality game, as I can think of many that do nothing new, but what they do, they do well. From the extract you gave me though, it sounds like what they are trying to describe isn't so much innovation, but rather novelty, or personality. Again, I can't say yet if I agree or not.



For me what has looked weak in gameplay videos is the shooting gameplay itself. If that looked satisfactory one could look the other way on the lack of multiplayer or co-op game modes that other similar titles have. Just a short time now until we see if it lives up to expectations, and by that I mean if it really is as underwhelming as it looks.



My 8th gen collection

*Sigh*

"Let us, first and foremost, define what “innovation” is, and what isn’t. The Merriam-Webster dictionary comes to our help:"

Whenever you use the dictionary definition for something, you've already erred. Words often have different meanings in different contexts. What we mean by gimmick in terms of the Wii stuff is rarely the actual definition of the word. You can't go to the dictionary definition if we're talking about industry specific usage.

"Finding a game that does absolutely nothing new is actually rather difficult, due to the simple fact that game development is a very creative process. Innovation doesn’t just lay on single elements, but also in the combination of them, and there are nearly infinite ways to combine gameplay elements."

So then everything is innovative? Yay! Give every developer a gold star.

This is sort of the argument Vanilla Ice uses to defend himself against allegations that he ripped off queen. But, if everything is innovative, then obviously when we refer to a game as innovative, we mean that it is exceptionally so.

"First of all, the setting an story itself is an innovation. How many AAA games can you find out there set in an alternate Victorian age, with an order of fanatical knights fighting a two front-war against their own people and a semi-alien race using steampunk-ish technology and weapons?"

I've seen all of these elements in different capacities. The war against aliens (or some outside force) and their own people is fairly common. (Mass Effect is the one that comes most immediately to mind. Dead Rising works if we replace aliens with zombies. I believe Infamous 1 or 2 had similar themes with a human police force and some mutated force. You could even include Marvel Ultimate Alliance in there with a battle between heroes and nanobots). We have a lot of steampunk games, and even Steampunk alien conflicts in project S.T.E.A.M.

The story COULD be innovative. I have to see how its conflicts play out, its characterizations, its plot points, etc. But just having fairly well worn tropes mixed together doesn't bring it to a level of innovation that makes the game stand out.

"The game is also rather innovative in the way it tells the story. Cutscenes and gameplay are nearly seamless, with the player not only retaining a limited degree of control during narrative sections, but there’s no difference in 3D models and assets between cutscenes and gameplay. This is something definitely new at this level of visual fidelity, where normal gameplay normally utilizes downscaled models because there’s more hardware headroom."

Wait what? Since when is this innovative? We've had interactive cutscenes that use similar or the same models since Shenmue. Resident Evil 4 comes to mind. Heavy Rain is just one giant interactive cutscene. This isn't innovative by any stretch of the imagination.

"Finally, the game innovates in the field of music as well. This kind of genre and setting normally relies heavily on brass instruments to give that “heroic” and “epic” feel to the score. Composer Jason Graves removed the brass from the picture, on the other hand adding a choir of twenty-four men exclusively belonging to the low end of the scale, even to the exclusion of tenors, that normally are considered nearly indispensable."

This kind of genre and setting? I thought you said that this game has such an innovative never before seen this kind of setting? At any rate, the bar for "innovation" in your argument is getting lower and lower. No brass! Innovative!!!

"You may or may not like it, but even the cinematic 2.40:1 aspect ratio used in The Order: 1886 is also an innovation."

A lot of games have aspect ratios that leave bars on the screen. Usually 4:3, but I guess 2.4:1 makes it marvelously innovative. And not giving players the option to change it if they prefer makes it even move innovative.





Imagine if I sold you a car and said "this car goes really fast"! You try it out, and it goes a max of 80 miles per hour. You say to me "Hey what's the deal! This isn't fast at all."

I say "What do you mean? 80 miles per hour is really fast! That's faster than any animal that ever existed could move!"

You say "yeah but all cars could go that fast. If you made a point of calling your car fast, I figured you meant it's fast compared to other cars!"

And I'd say "gee your right. I guess that was a silly thing to say."

To translate, when we call a game innovative, we obviously mean more innovative than other games. So far, the Order doesn't meet that criteria.



The complaints have never been levied against the graphics/setting/story, but good on them for writing out that informative and well thought out strawman



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curl-6 said:

By that logic Mario Party 10 is innovative because the series has never been in HD before.

 

EDIT: This does not mean I condemn the game. I am reserving judgement for now.

It's be a innovation for the Mario Party series, but not for the genre or platform. I don't think that's a fair statement and I don't necessarily agree with OP.



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JWeinCom said:
*Sigh*

"Let us, first and foremost, define what “innovation” is, and what isn’t. The Merriam-Webster dictionary comes to our help:"

Whenever you use the dictionary definition for something, you've already erred. Words often have different meanings in different contexts. What we mean by gimmick in terms of the Wii stuff is rarely the actual definition of the word. You can't go to the dictionary definition if we're talking about industry specific usage.

"Finding a game that does absolutely nothing new is actually rather difficult, due to the simple fact that game development is a very creative process. Innovation doesn’t just lay on single elements, but also in the combination of them, and there are nearly infinite ways to combine gameplay elements."

So then everything is innovative? Yay! Give every developer a gold star.

This is sort of the argument Vanilla Ice uses to defend himself against allegations that he ripped off queen. But, if everything is innovative, then obviously when we refer to a game as innovative, we mean that it is exceptionally so.

"First of all, the setting an story itself is an innovation. How many AAA games can you find out there set in an alternate Victorian age, with an order of fanatical knights fighting a two front-war against their own people and a semi-alien race using steampunk-ish technology and weapons?"

I've seen all of these elements in different capacities. The war against aliens (or some outside force) and their own people is fairly common. (Mass Effect is the one that comes most immediately to mind. Dead Rising works if we replace aliens with zombies. I believe Infamous 1 or 2 had similar themes with a human police force and some mutated force. You could even include Marvel Ultimate Alliance in there with a battle between heroes and nanobots). We have a lot of steampunk games, and even Steampunk alien conflicts in project S.T.E.A.M.

The story COULD be innovative. I have to see how its conflicts play out, its characterizations, its plot points, etc. But just having fairly well worn tropes mixed together doesn't bring it to a level of innovation that makes the game stand out.

"The game is also rather innovative in the way it tells the story. Cutscenes and gameplay are nearly seamless, with the player not only retaining a limited degree of control during narrative sections, but there’s no difference in 3D models and assets between cutscenes and gameplay. This is something definitely new at this level of visual fidelity, where normal gameplay normally utilizes downscaled models because there’s more hardware headroom."

Wait what? Since when is this innovative? We've had interactive cutscenes that use similar or the same models since Shenmue. Resident Evil 4 comes to mind. Heavy Rain is just one giant interactive cutscene. This isn't innovative by any stretch of the imagination.

"Finally, the game innovates in the field of music as well. This kind of genre and setting normally relies heavily on brass instruments to give that “heroic” and “epic” feel to the score. Composer Jason Graves removed the brass from the picture, on the other hand adding a choir of twenty-four men exclusively belonging to the low end of the scale, even to the exclusion of tenors, that normally are considered nearly indispensable."

This kind of genre and setting? I thought you said that this game has such an innovative never before seen this kind of setting? At any rate, the bar for "innovation" in your argument is getting lower and lower. No brass! Innovative!!!

"You may or may not like it, but even the cinematic 2.40:1 aspect ratio used in The Order: 1886 is also an innovation."

A lot of games have aspect ratios that leave bars on the screen. Usually 4:3, but I guess 2.4:1 makes it marvelously innovative. And not giving players the option to change it if they prefer makes it even move innovative.





Imagine if I sold you a car and said "this car goes really fast"! You try it out, and it goes a max of 80 miles per hour. You say to me "Hey what's the deal! This isn't fast at all."

I say "What do you mean? 80 miles per hour is really fast! That's faster than any animal that ever existed could move!"

You say "yeah but all cars could go that fast. If you made a point of calling your car fast, I figured you meant it's fast compared to other cars!"

And I'd say "gee your right. I guess that was a silly thing to say."

To translate, when we call a game innovative, we obviously mean more innovative than other games. So far, the Order doesn't meet that criteria.

^^What this guy said.

I also feel like the author in Duelshockers is trying to damage control the problems and previews it has.



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dont care that the game is about graphics and story the original uncharted was like this when it came out it had no MP the gameplay was pretty generic and other TPS where doing it better at that time but most could relate to drake sully elana raja and the environments

the problem i have with the order is that it has that 2.35.1 aspect ratio, that its europe based, and takes place in the 1800s, among having fantasy elements like half breed monsters

im sure it will sell well in EU but i have no interest and cant relate to none of the things mentioned it looks like it has good TPS gameplay and all something that sony doesnt have in terms as exclusives but i believe this game isnt going to appeal to many in the west



                                                             

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Boy, someone has it wrong. Nobody is complaining about a lack of innovation. In fact, the "innovative" setting will be the only saving grace for that game. The gripes are solely with the repetitive and seemingly shallow gameplay.

On another note, the definition in Merriam Webster only tells half of the story. As far as I know, simply doing something new is not innovating. For something new to become an innovation it has to be accepted and successful on at least some level.

That's why sticking a long knife into my colon isn't an innovative way to heal stomach cancer.



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I just want to know if it's good or not, personally don't care if it is innovative. Same with mario party (only have 2 and i liked it)