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Forums - Nintendo - How does Nintendo convince its fans to buy 3rd party games?

padib said:
MaskedBandit2 said:

The question isn't "How does Nintendo convince their fans to buy 3rd party games," nor is it "How do 3rd parties convince Nintendo fans to buy their games."  What you need to be asking is "How does Nintendo convince 3rd parties their system is a viable and worthwhile investment to properly develop games for?"  And yes, that is entirely on Nintendo.  It's not the third party's job to establish an audience.  They don't need Nintendo, per say.  All they need is an audience and a platform that either has the established userbase already, or one which is strongly cultivating it. 

The first post got it right.  In order to do that, they need to diversify and start making games for the same audiences as whom 3rd parties target.  They need to market the system at that audience to show their system is viable in terms of the games they want to play (shooters, racers, sports games, RPGs, etc), and they need to build a strong online community.  Doing so would prove to 3rd parties there is an established audience on the system hungry for the games they make.  The 3rd parties can tap into that easily and effectively with their established games. 

Nintendo also doesn't need 3rd parties.

It begs the question: "So what?"

lol of course they do.  They need the licensing revenue.  They need the genre diversity.  They need the games to fill in the gaps between their own releases.  They need a larger and expanding audience to sell to.  They need the consumer mindshare and retail presence throughtout the whole year.  3rd parties bring all of these.  No console maker can survive on their own, and frankly, there's no point to either.  



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It's a bit late now, but what they SHOULD have done was intervene to make sure Wii U ports were technically up to scratch, like how MS stepped in to make Diablo 3 on Xbone 1080p.



baloofarsan said:

To get to an attach ratio at the end of the generation of ten games sold per console, there should at least be twice as many to choose from as each gamer is different.

Let's see if Nintendo can dig up enough First Party games:

Mario Kart, Mario 2D, Mario 3D, Zelda, Metroid, Smash Bros, Mario Party, Donkey Kong, Animal Crossing, Paper Mario, WarioWare, Kirby, Yoshi, Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games, Pikmin, Mario Golf, Fire Emblem, Pilotwings, Starfox, Luigi's Mansion, Pokemon, Nintendogs, Kid Icarus, Mario Tennis, Golden Sun, Mario Strikers, Art Academy, Style Savvy, Wii Party...

 ...and even more! That's almost 30 games just there! 

 

Now let's look at Sony:

Gran Turismo, Uncharted, Little Big Planet, Resistance, MotorStorm, Killzone, inFAMOUS, God of War, Ratchet & Clank.

 

Now let's look at MS:

Halo, Gears, Fable, Forza!

 

Conclusion! Nintendo is pushing away Third Party because they have too much First Party!

The attachment ratio right now is 5.5  http://www.nintendo.co.jp/ir/en/sales/hard_soft/


wow. I'm amazed that a single person can be that heavily biased.



padib said:
MaskedBandit2 said:

lol of course they do.  They need the licensing revenue.  They need the genre diversity.  They need the games to fill in the gaps between their own releases.  They need a larger and expanding audience to sell to.  They need the consumer mindshare and retail presence throughtout the whole year.  3rd parties bring all of these.  No console maker can survive on their own, and frankly, there's no point to either.  

@bold. Nintendo did fine on their handhelds. I don't see why it should be any different for their home consoles. All their most popular systems were successful on and only on the success of 1st party hardware, even the NES. The only possible exception may be the SNES.

If licensing revenue is the issue, then 3rd parties could also make more money on Nintendo platforms. It goes both ways.

What Nintendo needs is coming next gen, and that is a unified game library between its portables and its home consoles. Problem solved.

1) Handhelds are a different market and in the past have had less competition.

2) Handhelds are cheaper to develop and quicker to develop for, meaning higher margins and more games out in a shorter amount of time.

3) Their handhelds still have had a large selection of 3rd party games in the past.  The 3DS still has some Japanese titles. 

Their consoles have always had some semblance of 3rd party support (their weakest having the least), and the majority of software sales on the Wii were from 3rd parties.  The Wii is exactly what I'm talking about when I say Nintendo has to establish the audience and 3rd parties will follow.  Their success with motion control and the likes of Wii Sports, Wii Play, Wii Fit, Wii Party, and Nintendo's appeal to kids brought in gamers and games and made the likes of Deca Sports, Carnival Games, Game Party, Zumba Fitness, EA Active, Just Dance, Skylanders, Disney Infinity, Lego games, etc succeed so well.  These games help carry momentum, spread positive word-of-mouth, instill retailer and publisher confidence, and provide a ton of licensing revenue for Nintendo.  

This is what they need, and what they are not getting with the Wii U.  They haven't got any sizable market onboard beyond their own fans, so 3rd parties have no one to sell to, which is exactly why 3rd parties can't make any money.  It doesn't go both ways here.  Right now, beyond the couple of IP aimed at kids, the 3rd party console market is mainly geared at the teenage-20s male audience, so I'm assuming that's the types of games this topic is addressing. 



MaskedBandit2 said:
padib said:

Nintendo also doesn't need 3rd parties.

It begs the question: "So what?"

lol of course they do.  They need the licensing revenue.

Bingo.  Think about it, why be a platform holder if you don't need licensing revenue?

Hardware is a very low margin business, or in video games a loss leading business.  The reason to be a platform holder is that everybody has to pay you to sell their games on it.  If they don't want / need licensee revenue and they just rely on Nintendo games for profit, it would be better to go 3rd party and not bother with their hardware platform.

Since they are in the platform business, they absolutely need 3rd party to increase revenue and to increase sales of their platform.



My 8th gen collection

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Teeqoz said:
baloofarsan said:

To get to an attach ratio at the end of the generation of ten games sold per console, there should at least be twice as many to choose from as each gamer is different.

Let's see if Nintendo can dig up enough First Party games:

Mario Kart, Mario 2D, Mario 3D, Zelda, Metroid, Smash Bros, Mario Party, Donkey Kong, Animal Crossing, Paper Mario, WarioWare, Kirby, Yoshi, Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games, Pikmin, Mario Golf, Fire Emblem, Pilotwings, Starfox, Luigi's Mansion, Pokemon, Nintendogs, Kid Icarus, Mario Tennis, Golden Sun, Mario Strikers, Art Academy, Style Savvy, Wii Party...

 ...and even more! That's almost 30 games just there! 

 

Now let's look at Sony:

Gran Turismo, Uncharted, Little Big Planet, Resistance, MotorStorm, Killzone, inFAMOUS, God of War, Ratchet & Clank.

 

Now let's look at MS:

Halo, Gears, Fable, Forza!

 

Conclusion! Nintendo is pushing away Third Party because they have too much First Party!

The attachment ratio right now is 5.5  http://www.nintendo.co.jp/ir/en/sales/hard_soft/


wow. I'm amazed that a single person can be that heavily biased.


The point I did not succeed in doing, I was not trying very hard really, was that:

Nintendo, much like Disney in the eighties, is so heavily relying on their iconic franchises that they fail to see what Third Party can contribute with. They flood their systems with franchise games that their fans crave. Problem is that not everyone is a nintendo fan.

Coming into the eight generation Nintendo tried to make a deal with EA. Despite having the successful Wii/DS generation behind them, someone at Nintendo sensed that they could not succeed again whitout Third Party developers. We do not know what happened - my guess is that Nintendo failed to see what EA could contribute with. They valued their own IPs to much to recognize EA expertise in games for a mature audience.

Well here we are, they will try to get to the mature audience themself but the only way that they know how to do it is to throw in Zelda costumes in Bayonetta, Zelda costumes in Warriors, Zelda chickens in Devil's Third, colourful squids in Quake MP (could have been Mario).



padib said:
ICStats said:
MaskedBandit2 said:

lol of course they do.  They need the licensing revenue.

Bingo.  Think about it, why be a platform holder if you don't need licensing revenue?

Hardware is a very low margin business, or in video games a loss leading business.  The reason to be a platform holder is that everybody has to pay you to sell their games on it.  If they don't want / need licensee revenue and they just rely on Nintendo games for profit, it would be better to go 3rd party and not bother with their hardware platform.

Since they are in the platform business, they absolutely need 3rd party to increase revenue and to increase sales of their platform.

Nintendo is the greatest selling manufacturer and is saving tremendously on licensing fees themselves by being a manufacturer.

Again, the revenue argument goes both ways (for Nintendo and for 3rd parties).

Sure, if their platform is a best seller then they are saving tremendously by owning it themselves.  On the other hand if their platform is selling tremendously bad, they have a giant opportunity cost.

Let's say they could get 100% attach rate on a game for simplicity.

- On Wii U they would get 5.9M x $35 per-game =  $206.5M (saved $41M on licensing)
- On PS4 + XB1 they would get 14.5M * ($35 - $7 licensing) = $406M (opportunity cost of being exclusive)

The opportunity cost of exclusivity is 10X higher than what they have saved on licensing costs by owning their hardware.



My 8th gen collection

Fusioncode said:
flagstaad said:
Fusioncode said:

Never going to happen. 3rd parties don't need Nintendo. Nintendo needs 3rd parties.

I like your attitude, but is a lost cause, Nintendo fans nitpick every aspect of the game, "look it runs at 2 less frames than in the other version, what a piece of ****", "it does not have the DLC that I will never buy anyway, what a ****** port", "It came 2 months later, why bother somebody else in the world already played it", they want the best version or nothing at all, and 3rd party will not put their A team when the sales don't support that economical decision.

Yup. I've always get a strange sense of elitism from a lot of WiiU owners. Not everyone of course but still. 

Ohh the irony... you actually really wrote that...



If it isn't turnbased it isn't worth playing   (mostly)

And shepherds we shall be,

For Thee, my Lord, for Thee. Power hath descended forth from Thy hand, That our feet may swiftly carry out Thy command. So we shall flow a river forth to Thee And teeming with souls shall it ever be. In Nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritūs Sancti. -----The Boondock Saints

padib said:

Of course Nintendo won't refuse licensing revenue, but Nintendo didn't do anything to attract those Wii 3rd parties. Again all Nintendo did was ensure the success of its own games, and the sheepish 3rd parties simply piggyback.

In other words, given that this piggybacking is the kind of behavior you expect from 3rd parties, we both agree on Nintendo's step to take one way or the other: make sure their games sell well. After that, whether 3rd parties are on board changes really nothing for Nintendo since they've already succeeded, the rest is icing on the cake.

However, I would take the argument further and argue that 3rd parties are losing opportunity on Nintendo's consoles by simply piggybacking. Of course it would be more risky, but it could potentially be also more lucrative. I'm not saying that's the case on the U, but again my argument is that that is the 3rd party's job, not Nintendo's.

No.  What I'm getting at is that they can't be successful without appealing to a broader market.  Appealing to the same Nintendo fans with Mario and Zelda isn't going to do anything to widen your userbase or attract 3rd parties, as they primarily develop for a different audience.  And without them, it's pointless being a platform holder. 

That's the reason why I mentioned the Wii.  Nintendo aggressively targeted a different, larger, more-casual audience which found them (and third parties) tremendous success.  It works in tandem.

Again, third parties are not losing anything if there are no signs of a potential audience.  Them developing a single title and releasing it is going to do nothing to attract a market that's currently not on it.  Those resources used would be much better spent developing for a platform the audience is on.  It's up to the platform holder to design, market, and cultivate an audience because they control the most powerful message.  Just for an example: Ubisoft could release AC, Activision could release COD on a Nintendo system in November- but if Nintendo's primary games on the system are Mario this and Mario that, and the main marketing they've chosen is aimed directly at kids with Nintendo games, Amiibo, and Disney Infinity, those games are going to sell next to nothing.  There is a clear audience mismatch and the third parties can do nothing about it.  Nintendo controls the message of the system. 



Doing a better marketing; Offering deals/discounts.