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Forums - Nintendo - The truth about Nintendo

 

What do you think about Nintendo's attitude?

Awful, they should fail i... 189 14.04%
 
Pretty Bad, they should l... 385 28.60%
 
Not bad, they're just as anybody else 188 13.97%
 
Good, we need more like them 389 28.90%
 
Excellent, they don't need to change one bit 173 12.85%
 
Total:1,324
trixiemafia86 said:
With the success of the Wii, N had the resourses to create more ips and better hardware yet they came with wii u which only has a few exclusives with limited 3rd party games after over a year on the market.
remember, they abandoned the wii in its final years, yet they still weren't ready with games for wii u.

all that profit with nothing much invested. you got some good points, i give u that.


That is one of the biggest things that bothers me about nintendo right now, that is a very valid point. But they are working on that as we speak. I'm bothered by it now, but when they deliver on games I will be one happy gamer. I just wish they could deliver the goods faster.



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Zod95 said:

That give us a good insight about what might have happened with the Wii and is happening with the Wii U. And that's one of the things sundin13 fails to understand. He thinks about the short-term and how a specific company has benefited from the easy-way of making money out of games and he doesn't get how the whole ecosystem (industry and market) got harmed because of that.

Slander I say! But seriously, you fail to see how the company has changed. Yeah, maybe what they did 20 years had a negative effect on the industry. Who knows? The industry was truly a mess back then (see the Video Game Crash of 1983) and Nintendo had an undeniably large part in shaping it into something amazing. I think its just as arguable that everything Nintendo did was beneficial to the industry as the inverse. 

On top of that, they don't employ those practices any more. In fact, from what I've seen, Sony and MS are much worse at that now than Nintendo is. Additionally, the ecosystem that MS/Sony have bred is a large part of what is pushing the industry to another crash. 

You just see the company as evil for old and outdated reasons, I see the fact that they have changed (despite you claiming that they make no effort to change) and not only play a large role in making the industry as it is now into a great place but also they played a huge part in making the gaming industry wonderful all those years ago. Would the video game industry be in a better place now if Nintendo was never around? I highly doubt it and you have no way of proving otherwise.

Once again, you claim baseless supposition as fact.

@ Your Response to MDMAlliance (page 17):

1. Nintendo has around 7-8B$ in the bank...I don't really know where you are getting that 32B$ figure from but you seem to be fairly misguided. I would like a source that is more trustworthy than an imgur pic...

2. You need to admit that your whole "debt" (I used quotations!) argument is bollocks and has no hand in truth whatsoever...

3. "First, they didn't evolve as fast as competition (that's why I said "Nintendo wasn’t able to follow the market trends and the industry turns"). Second, they were the same IPs with the same characters and in many times with the same formulas. Look at the examples the OP gives (cartoonish graphics and balloon-based games are some of them). That's not evolving."

 Why should Nintendo follow the market? I've asked this before but you haven't told me. What good does everybody doing the same thing to for the market? Why should we encourage market homogenization? How is Nintendo doing something different that everybody else in any way a bad thing? 

Also, you say Nintendo wasn't able to keep up with the market yet through the entirety of last gen, the market was chasing Nintendo with things like Move and Kinect and a multitude of clone-esque games (eg. kinect sports). Nintendo doesn't follow the market, that much is true. It leads. 
You want to insult Nintendo for making cartoonish games? Why? How would changing that be good for the industry? Evolution generally occurs because there is some external force selecting for change but there is no force doing that. The market isn't trying to change Nintendo as shown by the massive sales of games like mario kart and New Super Mario Bros. If Nintendo did "evolve" into photorealism, they would just be joining a crowed market fighting for the same resources everybody else is consuming, arguably hurting themselves and hurting the market.

4. If you want to insult the fact that Nintendo relies too heavily on Platformers and RPGs, how about looking at other companies instead of the "market".

Square Enix: Leans too heavily on RPGs

EA: Leans too heavily on shooters and sports games

Microsoft: Leans too heavily on Shooters and racing games

I could go on. Additionally, I wouldn't even say that your point is true. Nintendo releases games in all sorts of genres from sports games, shooters, puzzle, racing, fighting, platformer, turn based RPG, real time RPG, hack and slash and much more...

5. Why is complexity the direction the industry should go? Why is it inherently better? I for one hate racing sims...they are just boring. I don't find it fun to drive a car around a circle for twenty minutes, that just isn't interesting to me. Basketball games are just boring, running up and down the court with mechanics that just aren't fun...However, I can really enjoy Mario Kart or Mario Sports games. They focus on fun and they deliver in spades. Your implication that this is inferior is baseless.

6. "Nintendo has only made linear games":

Have you forgotten that Nintendo are the ones who made games like Metroid (are you really calling metroid linear? really?) and Xenoblade? What exactly would you consider non-linear because to be honest, I don't see many non-linear games in the industry from anyone...

7. "Games began with balloons and have gradually evolved into voice acting. Please go see the videogaming history."

He was saying that voice acting does not imply that a game is more advanced. yes, its something that was impossible with old technology but there are plenty of "advanced" games without voice acting and for that matter, plenty of Nintendo games with voice acting (xenoblade, bayonetta 2, fire emblem, kid icarus, wonderful 101, Fatal Frame, etc)...
8. "Real-time anymations exist in games such as Gran Turismo, FIFA or Skate. Each collision is a collision. Each goal kick is a goal kick. Each skate trick is a skate trick. But, among the balloon-based games Nintendo has, such as Pokémon, you don't control the character to perform your unique attacks (that would be character full-control). You just order the attack and the attack "X" has always the same animation (it's not real-time)."
While Pokemon isn't real time (not sure why you are attacking turn based, its a viable genre that can provide a lot of fun and entertainment and a lot of people greatly enjoy turn based games) Nintendo has a multitude of other games that aren't turn based from Zelda to Xenoblade to Pikmin etc...
9. "It depends on what you consider to be evolution. If it is about your personal tastes"
I thought you were presenting us with the truth, not personal tastes...hmmmmm
10. "Of course it is. To buy cameras, to hire professionals to travel and shoot real places, to hire designers to recreate those environments, to spend the time to make sure that the result in the game is similar to the real thing. And realistic HD graphics demand eagle-eye and a thorough work. Cartoonish SD graphics don't require any of that."
That doesn't mean that cartoonish graphics aren't a lot of work...also, I've made this point before but how is the fact that somebody works harder in any way indicitave of quality? Why should I (the gamer) care how much work was put into a product as long as it is a good product? Also, I would like to point out the fact that dev times for Nintendo games are generally longer than dev times for your heralded photorealistic games...

11. "Yes, Sony and Microsoft, unlike Nintendo, develop top-notch game engines."

Funny stuff...Nintendo uses great custom made game engines for their games that lead them to be the best looking on the hardware. Implying Nintendo doesn't put a lot of effort into their engines is ridiculous (its the whole reason Pikmin 3 took so long to make).

12. "How do you define "great music"? It's again your personal tastes? Please understand this (read it 3 times before any reply to me)"

Listen to the soundtrack from most Nintendo games and its easy to see how much work went into it. From the fully orchestral soundtracks of Galaxy 2 to the brilliant compositions in Metroid to the amazing soundwork in Xenoblade...You may say quality is subjective but you would be hardpressed to deny that Nintendo puts a lot of work into game music. 



Yes, Sony and Microsoft, unlike Nintendo, develop top-notch game engines.

Can you list  some examples, and what distinctions you made to determine why those are top-notch engines. Are you implying that Nintendo's in house game engines do not meet that criteria? What can NIntendo do to make their game engines top-notch?



Current gaming platforms - Switch, PlayStation 4, Xbox One, Wii U, New 3DS, PC

Zod95 said:
Spazzy_D said:
Just want to say, but graphically at least, the 6th gen consoles were pretty clearly Xbox > Gamecube > PS2 > Dreamcast.

PS2 was the most powerful console when it was launched. That is being cutting-edge. Otherwise, NES was not cutting-edge either.

WiiU was the most powerful console when it was launched. Therefore cutting edge.



3DS-FC: 4511-1768-7903 (Mii-Name: Mnementh), Nintendo-Network-ID: Mnementh, Switch: SW-7706-3819-9381 (Mnementh)

my greatest games: 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020, 2021, 2022, 2023, 2024

10 years greatest game event!

bets: [peak year] [+], [1], [2], [3], [4]

Zod95 said:
Mnementh said:
Zod95 said:

1. Harming gamers

1.1. What Nintendo does with your dollar

It doesn’t take much time to search for graphics and tables on Google images about the profits of the big three and realize that Sony and Microsoft pick your dollar to spend on more games and consoles while Nintendo keeps much (if not most) of it.

1 dollar spent on Sony or Microsoft products means 1 dollar to feed hardware and software developers for the production of more and better games. 1 dollar spent on Nintendo products means a very significant part of it out of the videogaming industry. It’s interesting to realize that the only 100% gaming corporation making consoles nowadays is also the only one taking money away from the gaming cycle.

 

LOL. They made more money, because they produced games that appealed to many people. And that argument means, you should currently support Nintendo, because they are losing money currently. You should rethink that argument.

No, that's not what is written. It's not about small or big amounts of money. It's about every dollar. Read it again and see the 1-dollar example.

You didn't bother to read my post exactly. Let's make it simple: For every dollar you pay for WiiU or WiiU-games, Nintendo invests more than one dollar (let's say 1.30$) into games or hardware. For every dollar you pay for PS4 or PS4-games, Sony invests less than 1 dollar (let's say 0.70$) into games or hardware. That is your exact argument, but applied to the current situation instead of history.



3DS-FC: 4511-1768-7903 (Mii-Name: Mnementh), Nintendo-Network-ID: Mnementh, Switch: SW-7706-3819-9381 (Mnementh)

my greatest games: 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020, 2021, 2022, 2023, 2024

10 years greatest game event!

bets: [peak year] [+], [1], [2], [3], [4]

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trixiemafia86 said:
With the success of the Wii, N had the resourses to create more ips and better hardware yet they came with wii u which only has a few exclusives with limited 3rd party games after over a year on the market.
remember, they abandoned the wii in its final years, yet they still weren't ready with games for wii u.

all that profit with nothing much invested. you got some good points, i give u that.

They just built a massive new R&D facility.  I think they pulled support for Wii and had little new for Wii U because they were in transition from the 2 buildings.  They couldn't expand their development teams in the old building and Wii U certainly requires more development resources than did Wii.  Their Wii U output was limited simply due to logistics and manpower allocations.

Ever notice how far more external studios are handling Nintendo 1st party development?  They've had to outsource a lot.



The rEVOLution is not being televised

The problem with this thread is that you take your opinions, some really blurry sources (that are not even first hand sources, or even second hand sources), then merge them and call them facts.

 

You decide to take as true an anonymous-sourced article that was about an prelaunch and early dev. dev (theres a whole thread about that in this forum) yet you downplay and article about a recent dev that shows that most if not all of those problems were arranged or never existed. When some user reply you and you dont know how to explain that you only tell them to go and read the op again (or a part of it) as if, for your concern, you are already right and they didnt read in the way you wrote it. And you do this constantly

 

Zod95 said:
sundin13 said:

- inadequate documentation: I'm not entirely sure what you mean and I would like proof.

- incompetent help support: I've heard far more stories of good experiences with Nintendo than bad experiences with Nintendo and for every story you could find of some random indie saying something bad about Nintendo, I could probably find five good good experiences. I think you need to prove your point a little better here.

Last paragraphs of section 2.2 of the OP (source: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2014-secret-developers-wii-u-the-inside-story).

 

You say "I don't need to read that pile of text to understand that high power allows low power but the opposite is not true.". With that you imply that you have previous knowledge, and that is excelent, but when someone tries to do the same but against you op you do it again, tell them to go and read that part of the op that, acording to you (you dont say it, but you imply it), they just dont undersand. The argument you most use is the guiness records one, you throw it away as if people have not read/undertand it and you continue; let me bring a counter argument of some user, this time with all respect 

The Guinness book relies on facts (i.e. fastest car speed officially recorded,  most number of hotdogs eaten in X minutes). Most importanly, it limits itself to facts, it doesn't try to link facts with each others, it doesn't try to explain reality, it stops before that. You comparaison with the Guinness book doesn't make sense since you are trying to explain reality.

And using the quantitative measure of ''Effort/time/money'' to qualitatively analyse games is misleading since the quality of a particular game is not determined by the amount of ''Effort/time/money'' put into it, notwithstanding you even knowing that amount.

You also downplay others opinions and articles, but your sources are: An image (sourceless one, already have been searching for it), a blog entry about the pre 90's nintendo (sourceless again, but thats not bad if we consider that is a BLOG) that actually conclude with "I personally think that the inherent risks of a single system market are sufficient to warrant concern if the industry becomes dominated by one company again.that actually has more to do with the actual state of ps4, but lets continue, you also have a source about the lets play in youtube and nintendo not allowing it, wich you yourself say that it has damaged themselves more tha anything and only covers your op's 3.2, and an article from eurogamer, doubted and called "clickbait" from others developers (something i cant deny or probe personally), no more sources (you didnt quote anything in your op also) and yet you claim that most if not all of your arguments are facts or are "backed up"

 

Im going to do a final quote from a user up there, 

You want us to see things your way like it's the only logical way to see things.



sundin13 said:

1. As I have already said, there is nothing wrong with a weaker console. I have made my point multiple times but you continue to assert that a weaker console is inherently bad and yet you champion the PS2 as if it some god amongst peasants. When Nintendo does it they are screwing third parties but when Sony does it they are heralded as the savior of yore! Er, sorry, got a little carried away, but c'mon man, look at your bias!

I've just answered your question (how has the Wii attracted shovelware). You say there's nothing wrong with that. That's fine by me, but I have a different perspective, that's all.

Nintendo has screwed 3rd parties because of many many points I've mentioned on the entire section 2 of the OP...and only 1 of them is creating a significantly weaker console than competition, which neither Sony nor Microsoft have ever made. Wii is 1 gen behind X360 and PS3. WiiU is 1 gen behind XOne and PS4. PS1 was not 1 gen behind N64. PS2 was not 1 gen behind GC. Am I being biased for that? I think I'm not.

And this is one tiny part of the whole section 2 (harming developers). Please read it and tell me if you don't perceive a difference between Nintendo and Sony/Microsoft.

 

sundin13 said:

2. 2.2 once again asserts that weaker consoles are inherently EVIL. Also you seem to have missed the fact that Nintendo are actually doing quite brilliantly with indies right about now. So yeah, Nintendo has created a friendly ecosystem for developers on the Wii U.

Please show me evidence. Not that it erases Nintendo's bad practices, but it would be already a start.

 

sundin13 said:

3. You didn't really say much in this point...You blame Nintendo for the shovelware saying that they set the example but if that was true, we would have seen more great, creative and intuitive games that followed Nintendo's example on the Wii and Wii U...You give Nintendo too much blame for things that aren't really their fault...

Setting the example is just one of the several points I've made there. Why do you ignore most of what I say so that you won't get the right message? Are you willing to really debate the points I've made or you just want to break my arguments into small little pieces and spin-off whatever you get from there?

 

sundin13 said:

5. You really cap this one off with a coup de grace of ridiculous @.@

Yes, how can anyone see that the fact that budgets have skyrocketed leading to one mistake being all it takes to wipe an otherwise wonderful developer out? How could anyone see an atmosphere that discourages experimentation by making it so new IPs are too much of a risk while doing the same thing as everyone else is almost a much more likely way to profit. Look up any article about how destructive the AAA market is and educate yourself before preaching some "truth" that is about as objective as the laymen's opinions...
Look at the fact that Nintendo repeatedly makes some of the most highly rated games before saying they are "lowering standards"...You seem to be fixated on your opinion that weaker consoles (when Nintendo makes them) are evil but there is no truth to that. You want to hate on shovelware, hate the people making it.

I will only say it again: a highly powerful hardware allows low powerful games, a low powerful hardware does not allow highly powerful games. Freedom means developers are free to do whatever they want.

Furthermore, a more powerful console is more expensive to design and to produce. No only your argument is false (devs have indeed all the freedom to do whatever they want on the powerful PS4 and XOne) but also Nintendo is not opting by producing less powerful consoles to protect devs, it's just to protect their own pockets.

 

sundin13 said:
Nobody expected the Wii to take off like it did and Nintendo was just doing what they had to to keep themselves alive.

Just to keep themselves alive?? Please, look at reality: http://i.imgur.com/vXo7Z.png?1

 

sundin13 said:
The market cannot support three identacle console manufacturers. Even Sony has said that Nintendo is good for the industry and Nintendo brings a lot of new consumers in and the "shovelware" games on every console helps to fund bigger, more ambitious projects. You need to see the whole picture. The market without Nintendo is not a market I would like to see and I quite frankly find it appalling that anyone would wish for it...

Yes it can. Consoles could even be all the same. We only need diversification on software, and even that doesn't mean there must be poor games. I know it's hard to imagine, but it would be possible to make a AAA Mario game. Nintendo has the resources and the talent to do that. They just lack of willingness.

 

sundin13 said:
EDIT: @ Below post: Oh no! A business is greedy! Oh wait...thats pretty much every business ever. Like I said, most of those points haven't been relevant for a long time so why should I care about them now? Especially when the guys who ran the company back then aren't around anymore (RIP Yamauchi). The market was a very different place back then too...those points just aren't relevant.

It's not the business that is greedy, it's a specific company in comparison to the others.

 

sundin13 said:
EDIT2: @ Region Lock: Region lock is largely a practice employed because of third parties and licensing rights...just sayin' that you keep yelling about how Nintendo is terrible to third parties and then you attack region lock...seems kinda silly to me. Here is a link, educate yourself: http://aussie-gamer.com/article/why-region-locking-is-good-for-video-games/

The arguments presented in there are laughable. I would be ashamed of posting such a link and say "educate yourself". Please, they even claim that squeezing a market is a good thing.

Sony and Microsoft also work with 3rd parties and licensing rights and they don't need region lock. Why? Please tell me why.

Those are only excuses and false arguments to stand for a shameful business practice.



Prediction made in 14/01/2014 for 31/12/2020:      PS4: 100M      XOne: 70M      WiiU: 25M

Prediction made in 01/04/2016 for 31/12/2020:      PS4: 100M      XOne: 50M      WiiU: 18M

Prediction made in 15/04/2017 for 31/12/2020:      PS4: 90M      XOne: 40M      WiiU: 15M      Switch: 20M

Prediction made in 24/03/2018 for 31/12/2020:      PS4: 110M      XOne: 50M      WiiU: 14M      Switch: 65M

The problem with this thread is that you take your opinions, some really blurry sources (that are not even first hand sources, or even second hand sources), then merge them and call them facts.

 

You decide to take as true an anonymous-sourced article that was about an prelaunch and early dev. dev (theres a whole thread about that in this forum) yet you downplay and article about a recent dev that shows that most if not all of those problems were arranged or never existed. When some user reply you and you dont know how to explain that you only tell them to go and read the op again (or a part of it) as if, for your concern, you are already right and they didnt read in the way you wrote it. And you do this constantly

 

Zod95 said:
sundin13 said:

- inadequate documentation: I'm not entirely sure what you mean and I would like proof.

- incompetent help support: I've heard far more stories of good experiences with Nintendo than bad experiences with Nintendo and for every story you could find of some random indie saying something bad about Nintendo, I could probably find five good good experiences. I think you need to prove your point a little better here.

Last paragraphs of section 2.2 of the OP (source: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2014-secret-developers-wii-u-the-inside-story).

 

You say "I don't need to read that pile of text to understand that high power allows low power but the opposite is not true.". With that you imply that you have previous knowledge, and that is excelent, but when someone tries to do the same but against you op you do it again, tell them to go and read that part of the op that, acording to you (you dont say it, but you imply it), they just dont undersand. The argument you most use is the guiness records one, you throw it away as if people have not read/undertand it and you continue; let me bring a counter argument of some user, this time with all respect 

The Guinness book relies on facts (i.e. fastest car speed officially recorded,  most number of hotdogs eaten in X minutes). Most importanly, it limits itself to facts, it doesn't try to link facts with each others, it doesn't try to explain reality, it stops before that. You comparaison with the Guinness book doesn't make sense since you are trying to explain reality.

And using the quantitative measure of ''Effort/time/money'' to qualitatively analyse games is misleading since the quality of a particular game is not determined by the amount of ''Effort/time/money'' put into it, notwithstanding you even knowing that amount.

You also downplay others opinions and articles, but your sources are: An image (sourceless one, already have been searching for it), a blog entry about the pre 90's nintendo (sourceless again, but thats not bad if we consider that is a BLOG) that actually conclude with "I personally think that the inherent risks of a single system market are sufficient to warrant concern if the industry becomes dominated by one company again.that actually has more to do with the actual state of ps4, but lets continue, you also have a source about the lets play in youtube and nintendo not allowing it, wich you yourself say that it has damaged themselves more tha anything and only covers your op's 3.2, and an article from eurogamer, doubted and called "clickbait" from others developers (something i cant deny or probe personally), no more sources (you didnt quote anything in your op also) and yet you claim that most if not all of your arguments are facts or are "baked up"

 

Im going to do a final quote from a user up there, 

You want us to see things your way like it's the only logical way to see things.


Ps: please pardon me for my english, not a native speaker

ps2: i cant expand my post as i have to go to the uni, but anyway is always a pleasure to have a discussion



sundin13 said:
Zod95 said:

That give us a good insight about what might have happened with the Wii and is happening with the Wii U. And that's one of the things sundin13 fails to understand. He thinks about the short-term and how a specific company has benefited from the easy-way of making money out of games and he doesn't get how the whole ecosystem (industry and market) got harmed because of that.

Slander I say! But seriously, you fail to see how the company has changed. Yeah, maybe what they did 20 years had a negative effect on the industry. Who knows? The industry was truly a mess back then (see the Video Game Crash of 1983) and Nintendo had an undeniably large part in shaping it into something amazing. I think its just as arguable that everything Nintendo did was beneficial to the industry as the inversrn based games) Nintendo has a multitude of other games that aren't turn based from Zelda to Xenoblade to Pikmin etc...

12. "How do you define "great music"? It's again your personal tastes? Please understand this (read it 3 times before any reply to me)"

Listen to the soundtrack from most Nintendo games and its easy to see how much work went into it. From the fully orchestral soundtracks of Galaxy 2 to the brilliant compositions in Metroid to the amazing soundwork in Xenoblade...You may say quality is subjective but you would be hardpressed to deny that Nintendo puts a lot of work into game music. 


I didnt read his long rant on Nintendo honestly, i feel it would be a waste of my precious time....

but if he, in the OP, somehow even implies that Nintendo doesnt have, not even competent, but TOP NOTCH Music composers and legendary artist, this is the BIGGEST facepalms in existence.

Nintendo has the best Music in the industry by far. I thought that was common knowledge