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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Is X1 forcing Kinect on us any different than PS3 forcing Bluray on us?

 

???

Yea! 301 40.13%
 
Nay! 447 59.60%
 
Total:748
Mr Puggsly said:
Michael-5 said:

Again, instead of accepting the others opinion, you're choosing the moral high grounds of insulting the other when you just plain don't agree..

I think we're done here, and I think you're pretty biased towards to 360 if you think it could play some of the exclusives which are outside the systems processing capabilities.

---

Anyway the thread was about Kinect, not graphics, and Kinect is not needed, so MS is forcing it upon us. Like many people said here, BR was a decision made to increase the amount of storage on a disk, and allow games more space. This largely paid off, as many PS3 exclusives hover around 40GB, and many late life 360 games, + JRPG's required 2 or more disks.

Kinect....isn't a design choice, it's a marketing ploy. It doesn't do anything to improve gameplay, and can be easily removed (unlike BR). So why is there no Kinect free package?


I didn't insult you, I just don't agree with the point you keep hammering. I don't accept your opinion.

There is no doubt in my mind developers can bring any PS3 exclusive to the 360. Could it look 100% exactly the same? Who knows?

 

PS3 exclusives are often ~40GB to speed up load times, not because the games have a lot of content.

As I said in my OP, the best things we saw from Bluray in the PS3 was sharper movies and less disc swaps.

I think the line between design and marketing is blurry. Obviously design choices are marketed.

MS's vision of the X1 included the Kinect. That's why there isn't a Kinect free package. Perhaps that'll change in the future to get the price down.

 <-- This is not an insult?

Like I already told you, there are a lot of games not possible on 360 because of the DVD format of the disk. MGS IV is one of them.

~40GB PS3 games - A lot of it is content, a lot of the bigger 360 games use 2 disks which is about 20GB, Sony just has BR instead.

As for MS's vision of the XB1, again this is what their vision of the console is not mine. They can easily sell me one without Kinect since it doesn't affect any games yet, and won't be used for the bulk of most games.

Put it this way, having Kinect come with the XBO is the same type of add on as XBLG. I don't play much online, so why would I want to buy a bundle with XBLG? I don't play Kinect, maybe this is MS's vision of the console, but if you can already turn it off and unplug it....then why can't I just buy a console without it? MS's vision of XBO clearly includes people not using the Kinect, so all I'm saying is that they are forcing us to buy it?

Sony with the BR, it's not like the PS3 has 2 disk drives and you can choose not to use the BR drive.



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ViktorBKK said:

Some people are very confused. Optical storage DOES NOT improve your game or graphics in any way whatsoever. It is simply a means to deliver the data. A huge game could come in 5 DVDs or in 1 blu-ray or be downloaded or whatever. The way the data is delivered is irrelevant to the game's quality. Also, running games directly from optical storage, wether its blu-ray or dvd, is pathetic. Compare to HDD/SSD, optical drives are loud, slow and more prone to fail eventually.  All games should be installed on the hard drive, in their entirety, before play. Optical drive should be inactive during gameplay. X360 offered such a feature on a system level, PS3 didn't.

Blu-ray was awesome for movie playback, and for convenience. It didn't improve the games in any way.

Disk space is important for how you partition data, and can indirectly affect graphics. If say you design a game which requires a lot of data to be accessed at once (say like MGS IV), and say you always need access to 10GB or more, then the game won't work on a DVD since it can't be partitioned into small enough bits for that to work.

A better example would be using a CD and DVD for the moment, I'm sure the Unreal 3 engine is larger then 700MB, so it's impossible to run Gears of War off a CD because you can't even fit the engine on it.



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Michael-5 said:

 <-- This is not an insult?

Like I already told you, there are a lot of games not possible on 360 because of the DVD format of the disk. MGS IV is one of them.

~40GB PS3 games - A lot of it is content, a lot of the bigger 360 games use 2 disks which is about 20GB, Sony just has BR instead.

As for MS's vision of the XB1, again this is what their vision of the console is not mine. They can easily sell me one without Kinect since it doesn't affect any games yet, and won't be used for the bulk of most games.

Put it this way, having Kinect come with the XBO is the same type of add on as XBLG. I don't play much online, so why would I want to buy a bundle with XBLG? I don't play Kinect, maybe this is MS's vision of the console, but if you can already turn it off and unplug it....then why can't I just buy a console without it? MS's vision of XBO clearly includes people not using the Kinect, so all I'm saying is that they are forcing us to buy it?

Sony with the BR, it's not like the PS3 has 2 disk drives and you can choose not to use the BR drive.


Nope, its not an insult.

You keep telling me there are PS3 games not possible on the 360 because of DVD, but I keep saying I don't agree. My opinion differs from yours.

You seem to believe ~40GB PS3 games actually need that much space, I assure you that's not the case.

Bluray didn't do much for a bulk of PS3 games. In fact, it created an issue due to a slow disc drive.

Yes, the PS3 could have had two disc drives. That's a great idea.



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Mr Puggsly said:
Michael-5 said:

 <-- This is not an insult?

Like I already told you, there are a lot of games not possible on 360 because of the DVD format of the disk. MGS IV is one of them.

~40GB PS3 games - A lot of it is content, a lot of the bigger 360 games use 2 disks which is about 20GB, Sony just has BR instead.

As for MS's vision of the XB1, again this is what their vision of the console is not mine. They can easily sell me one without Kinect since it doesn't affect any games yet, and won't be used for the bulk of most games.

Put it this way, having Kinect come with the XBO is the same type of add on as XBLG. I don't play much online, so why would I want to buy a bundle with XBLG? I don't play Kinect, maybe this is MS's vision of the console, but if you can already turn it off and unplug it....then why can't I just buy a console without it? MS's vision of XBO clearly includes people not using the Kinect, so all I'm saying is that they are forcing us to buy it?

Sony with the BR, it's not like the PS3 has 2 disk drives and you can choose not to use the BR drive.


Nope, its not an insult.

You keep telling me there are PS3 games not possible on the 360 because of DVD, but I keep saying I don't agree. My opinion differs from yours.

You seem to believe ~40GB PS3 games actually need that much space, I assure you that's not the case.

Bluray didn't do much for a bulk of PS3 games. In fact, it created an issue due to a slow disc drive.

Yes, the PS3 could have had two disc drives. That's a great idea.

Kinda is an insult, she's gotta be one of the ugliest actors around, and to have huh go "okay buddy"....it hurts to watch.

It's not opinion the MGS IV can't play on 360 without being redesigned from the ground up to do so. They can't just partition and port it.

~40GB PS4 games need the space, ~40 GB PS3 games probably need 20-30GB, which if they could be partitioned would mean 3-5 disks on the 360. That is if they can be partitioned, and who wants a 5 disk game? JRPG's aren't bad because they are linear, you only change disks once, but with something like The Last of Us?

OMG, so your telling me, on top of being a $700 system at launch, it could have been more expensive with a second disk drive?

----

The main thing is Sony designed the system to use BR, and keep their games in that format. You can't buy a PS3 without a BR drive. Microsoft designed the XBO to use Kinect, but after serious backlash from the community, they made it possible to play XBO with Kinect off entirely. So if it's Microsofts vision to allow gamers to play without Kinect, including it is forcing it upon us.

PS3 is a very different situation because there was no option to play PS3 without the BR Drive. Maybe now that digital sales are strong, they could make an optical drive free PS3. However, they did try that with the PSP Go and it failed. Microsoft isn't doing shit, they want to increase profits, so they are forcing Kinect upon us, even though it's a part of their vision not to use it.



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Mr Puggsly said:

I'll be blunt, I can't point to a single game that was better thanks to Bluray. The best things Bluray had to offer on PS3 is higher quality video and no disc swaps.

It appears to me the only thing that motivated Sony to push Bluray was royalties and it made the PS3 signficantly more expensive. Had PS3 not included Bluray, it might have launched for $399.

Not everyone wants Kinect, but not everyone wanted Bluray either. So I ask again! Is forcing Kinect on people any different than Sony forcing Bluray on us for PS3?!


Bluray is an essential part of the PS3, games had lossless audio and video and were on 1 disc so it was a major advantage vs 360 compressed, multiple disc games. Kinect on xbone is like the HDDVD addon on 360, not essential in the sense that no game requires it outside Kinect only games, and essential in a negative sense because the UI really is build with Kinect/voice commands in mind, and it doesnt work really well.



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Michael-5 said:

Kinda is an insult, she's gotta be one of the ugliest actors around, and to have huh go "okay buddy"....it hurts to watch.

It's not opinion the MGS IV can't play on 360 without being redesigned from the ground up to do so. They can't just partition and port it.

~40GB PS4 games need the space, ~40 GB PS3 games probably need 20-30GB, which if they could be partitioned would mean 3-5 disks on the 360. That is if they can be partitioned, and who wants a 5 disk game? JRPG's aren't bad because they are linear, you only change disks once, but with something like The Last of Us?

OMG, so your telling me, on top of being a $700 system at launch, it could have been more expensive with a second disk drive?

----

The main thing is Sony designed the system to use BR, and keep their games in that format. You can't buy a PS3 without a BR drive. Microsoft designed the XBO to use Kinect, but after serious backlash from the community, they made it possible to play XBO with Kinect off entirely. So if it's Microsofts vision to allow gamers to play without Kinect, including it is forcing it upon us.

PS3 is a very different situation because there was no option to play PS3 without the BR Drive. Maybe now that digital sales are strong, they could make an optical drive free PS3. However, they did try that with the PSP Go and it failed. Microsoft isn't doing shit, they want to increase profits, so they are forcing Kinect upon us, even though it's a part of their vision not to use it.

I'd hit it.

Porting MGS4 would take a little work, but it can be done. Witcher 2 wasn't intended to be on multiple discs, but the developers figured out.

Pretty much all the noteworthy PS3 games are linear. Last of Us included.

They should have left out the cell and Bluray, that would have saved Sony and consumers a lot of money.

Right, both of their visions might have been bad ideas. That's kinda my point of the thread. I'm not saying putting Kinect in every box was a good idea. People in this thread are missing that point.



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Michael-5 said:
ViktorBKK said:

Some people are very confused. Optical storage DOES NOT improve your game or graphics in any way whatsoever. It is simply a means to deliver the data. A huge game could come in 5 DVDs or in 1 blu-ray or be downloaded or whatever. The way the data is delivered is irrelevant to the game's quality. Also, running games directly from optical storage, wether its blu-ray or dvd, is pathetic. Compare to HDD/SSD, optical drives are loud, slow and more prone to fail eventually.  All games should be installed on the hard drive, in their entirety, before play. Optical drive should be inactive during gameplay. X360 offered such a feature on a system level, PS3 didn't.

Blu-ray was awesome for movie playback, and for convenience. It didn't improve the games in any way.

Disk space is important for how you partition data, and can indirectly affect graphics. If say you design a game which requires a lot of data to be accessed at once (say like MGS IV), and say you always need access to 10GB or more, then the game won't work on a DVD since it can't be partitioned into small enough bits for that to work.

A better example would be using a CD and DVD for the moment, I'm sure the Unreal 3 engine is larger then 700MB, so it's impossible to run Gears of War off a CD because you can't even fit the engine on it.

You don't get it do you? An optical disc is a container, nothing more. I can have Gears of War partitioned in 25 CDs if I want to, then install them all to the hard drive, and the game will play the exact same way. The computer will never know where the files came from. It will actually play better, than running it directly from a DVD.

Disc space is only important in terms of logistics. If you choose a format that is too small for your platform, and all your games end up 5 discs a piece, then that is a poor choice. If on the other hand you choose a format that is too expensive(blu-ray) then again, that can bee a poor choice, UNLESS you also happen to be pocketing roylaties from that format :P.

Blu-ray definetely wasn't essential for the PS3. A PS3 designed with DVD would have a lot more budget to spare on the important stuff, CPU/GPU/RAM. But of course one has to account for the wider business gains that Sony enjoyed by implementing blu-ray on the PS3. Overall it was a correct business decision, albeit it took a very long time for Sony to enjoy profits from the format. But now, Sony is king with blu-ray.

The biggest mistake with the PS3 was the Cell. It costed a shitload of money and offered shit performance in return. The PS3 should have been designed around a much cheaper general purpose multi-core cpu, like the 360 CPU. That would leave room for more ram, perhaps ~1GB and a better GPU. Some prototype variant of GeForce 8000 series must have been available at the time. A system like that would run circles around the 360(See what I did there?). Then adding blu-ray on top, would simply be a business decision.



Michael-5 said:

Like I already told you, there are a lot of games not possible on 360 because of the DVD format of the disk. MGS IV is one of them.

~40GB PS3 games - A lot of it is content, a lot of the bigger 360 games use 2 disks which is about 20GB, Sony just has BR instead.


You're kidding right?

Have you played Metal Gear Solid IV? It's not exactly a technical marvel, blurry low resolutions textures are everywhere, from a hardware perspective the Xbox 360 would handle the game just fine as there are games on the Xbox 360 that surpass it easily in terms of image quality. (Remember, the Xbox 360's GPU is superior to the Playstation 3's.)

Also keep in mind that 40Gb worth of game data would include duplicated data in order to optimise latency and throughput on the slower Blu-ray drive.
You could fit the game on 2x DVD's with some decent amounts of compression, which Microsoft used for Halo, that's suddenly not going to make it impossible to have it on the Xbox 360.
Compression can also improve drive throughput too, however you would need to expend CPU cycles for decompression.



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Mr Puggsly said:
Michael-5 said:

Kinda is an insult, she's gotta be one of the ugliest actors around, and to have huh go "okay buddy"....it hurts to watch.

It's not opinion the MGS IV can't play on 360 without being redesigned from the ground up to do so. They can't just partition and port it.

~40GB PS4 games need the space, ~40 GB PS3 games probably need 20-30GB, which if they could be partitioned would mean 3-5 disks on the 360. That is if they can be partitioned, and who wants a 5 disk game? JRPG's aren't bad because they are linear, you only change disks once, but with something like The Last of Us?

OMG, so your telling me, on top of being a $700 system at launch, it could have been more expensive with a second disk drive?

----

The main thing is Sony designed the system to use BR, and keep their games in that format. You can't buy a PS3 without a BR drive. Microsoft designed the XBO to use Kinect, but after serious backlash from the community, they made it possible to play XBO with Kinect off entirely. So if it's Microsofts vision to allow gamers to play without Kinect, including it is forcing it upon us.

PS3 is a very different situation because there was no option to play PS3 without the BR Drive. Maybe now that digital sales are strong, they could make an optical drive free PS3. However, they did try that with the PSP Go and it failed. Microsoft isn't doing shit, they want to increase profits, so they are forcing Kinect upon us, even though it's a part of their vision not to use it.

I'd hit it. <---Now I'll be taking everything you say with a grain of salt

Porting MGS4 would take a little work, but it can be done. Witcher 2 wasn't intended to be on multiple discs, but the developers figured out.

Pretty much all the noteworthy PS3 games are linear. Last of Us included.

They should have left out the cell and Bluray, that would have saved Sony and consumers a lot of money.

Right, both of their visions might have been bad ideas. That's kinda my point of the thread. I'm not saying putting Kinect in every box was a good idea. People in this thread are missing that point.

Porting MGS4 can be done, but it would take more then a little work. I'm sure Konami would have ported it directly if they could. This did that for MGS2 on XB, and even ported MGS3 to 3DS, but didn't port MGS4, even when they made a special collection package for PS3.

As for partitioning PS3 games, to make a 10 hour game 5 disks would be rather annoying, and I'm not sure how they could partition non-linear games like LBP, or the multiplayer in KZ3. Would you have to insert disk 1 for half the maps, and disk 2 for the other half? While physically possible, it would ruin the way way the PS3 game was designed.

I agree with you about the Cell, but I dunno about Blu-Ray, If Sony didn't make the PS3 Blu-Ray it would have cost them a lot more in the end. Not only were a lot of early PS3 sales due to it being a cheap Blu-Ray player, but having PS3 games on Blu-Ray disks helped Blu-Ray kill off HD DVD, and make Sony rich off loyalties.

-----

You're defending Kinect far too much, and your making Blu-Ray seem like an aweful thing.....anyway, to end this I just want to say I'm not getting either system until there is a more reliable slim model released, and I'm not getting an XBO until they remove Kinect. Going to stick to 7th gen, and likely get a Wii U by next fall.



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Pemalite said:
Michael-5 said:

Like I already told you, there are a lot of games not possible on 360 because of the DVD format of the disk. MGS IV is one of them.

~40GB PS3 games - A lot of it is content, a lot of the bigger 360 games use 2 disks which is about 20GB, Sony just has BR instead.


You're kidding right?

Have you played Metal Gear Solid IV? It's not exactly a technical marvel, blurry low resolutions textures are everywhere, from a hardware perspective the Xbox 360 would handle the game just fine as there are games on the Xbox 360 that surpass it easily in terms of image quality. (Remember, the Xbox 360's GPU is superior to the Playstation 3's.)

Also keep in mind that 40Gb worth of game data would include duplicated data in order to optimise latency and throughput on the slower Blu-ray drive.
You could fit the game on 2x DVD's with some decent amounts of compression, which Microsoft used for Halo, that's suddenly not going to make it impossible to have it on the Xbox 360.
Compression can also improve drive throughput too, however you would need to expend CPU cycles for decompression.

Konami said MGS4 can't be partitioned to fit on a 360 disk, and yes I've played the game. I doubt they would have clearly separated the game into 5 acts with a 2-3 minute load between acts if they weren't at least trying to port the game to 360. This game didn't get ported to the 360 because it was designed originally to be a PS4 exclusive, and just the way they designed the engine, I guess they couldn't partition it.

Clearly MGS5 shows us that the graphical limitations were not the cause.

Not all 40GB games have duplicate data, there are quite a few 3 & 4 disk 360 games. Lost Odyssey is 4 disk, and games like Blue Dragon, Star Ocean, FFXIII, LA Noire, and Rage are 3 disk. Of those games, the ones available on PS3 are still 1 disk, and in the case of Star Ocean, it's 1 disk with extra content.



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