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Forums - Nintendo - Is Nintendo even able or willing to surprise anymore?

 

Is Nintendo even able or willing to surprise anymore?

They are not able to 105 25.30%
 
They are not willing to 65 15.66%
 
You suck, they still are 244 58.80%
 
Total:414
Mazty said:
Viper1 said:
Mazty said:
Viper1 said:
Nintendo plugs in innovative gameplay ideas into established IPs.

They work backwards from most developers. Instead of starting with a fresh IP and then contemplating what gameplay mechanics they can come up, Nintendo comes up with gameplay mechanics first and then decides which of their IPs that gameplay mechanic would work best with.

For some, this strategy may seem like Nintendo rarely surprises with anything new.
For others, this strategy is all about new surprises with familiar friends.

And of course they bring in new IP's every now and then as well.


The question is when does familiar become boring? And does this idea limit them? E.g. if Nintendo wanted to make a mech game (ideal for the pads) do they really have a franchise suitable for such an idea? If they wanted to make a game with a serious storyline, again do they have a suitable series to tag this onto? (Imaging Heavy Rain with Mario actually is pretty damn awesome/hilarious in equal measure). 

The first problem is that you presented a "mech game" first rather than a gameplay mechanic first.  You just started your situation as most developers would do.  Start with a game type first and then consider gameplay mechanics.

Now if you mean by gameplay mechanics that are similar to those found in common mech based games, then at current they do not have an IP that would work perfectly for that style.  In this case, they'd create a new IP or work with a 3rd/2nd party developer.

Think of how Pikmin came about.   They didn't say let's make and RTS and then come up with the gameplay, they started with gameplay concepts first which is why it plays different from most RTS games.  And it's an example of them creating a new IP to fit a new gameplay mechanic where an established IP didn't exist for it.

Well "mechs" is pretty open ended e.g. ZoE, Hawken etc, but either way, that's the issue - Nintendo are limiting their audience by tying in game mechanics to IP's rather than create a concept and see where it goes. Their vision is limited by this and I think the Wii U will highlight this problem. 

So I give you a perfect example of how they establish a new IP to fit around a gameplay mechanic and you practically ignored it.   And you single out the Wii U for whatever reason despite this being their mind set since the late 1970's.

But nevermind.  It's Nintendo and you're going to be negative about them no matter what.



The rEVOLution is not being televised

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Galaki said:
Mazty said:

Pullblox...another kid focused platformer. How un-Nintendo...

I completely agree. It's a crappy platormer. You could easily find a better platformer on iOS for less than a buck.

Tsss, Galaki. It was a question. Now go and answer it.



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ALTTP2 is a good surprise.



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Viper1 said:
Mazty said:

Well "mechs" is pretty open ended e.g. ZoE, Hawken etc, but either way, that's the issue - Nintendo are limiting their audience by tying in game mechanics to IP's rather than create a concept and see where it goes. Their vision is limited by this and I think the Wii U will highlight this problem. 

So I give you a perfect example of how they establish a new IP to fit around a gameplay mechanic and you practically ignored it.   And you single out the Wii U for whatever reason despite this being their mind set since the late 1970's.

But nevermind.  It's Nintendo and you're going to be negative about them no matter what.

Gameplay mechanic - use the wii u pad as a console for a vehicle/mode of transport that involves numerous functions e.g. power, radar, ejection etc etc. 

Where can that be fitted into? Mario? Link, Brawl, Metroid? Nope. 
Also most of those are relatively child friendly so if the gameplay mechanic involved something serious e.g. precision damage, I doubt nintendo would ever want to make any of their IP's "mature" in that sense. They are limiting mechanics by saying that they want it to fit into an existing IP.

It's Nintendo. I loved the SNES and thought the N64 was brilliant. What I don't do however is mindlessly worship a company and unrealistically view any of their products and I'm not going to start to do so now. Nintendo admitted it sucks at core games, and those games tend to be mature in focus, ergo by sticking to it's own IP's Nintendo are limiting their options, not expanding them.



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Mnementh said:
Galaki said:
Mazty said:

Pullblox...another kid focused platformer. How un-Nintendo...

I completely agree. It's a crappy platormer. You could easily find a better platformer on iOS for less than a buck.

Tsss, Galaki. It was a question. Now go and answer it.

So instead of answering simple questions you'd rather avoid it and then mock it....Claiming a game is original and then not being able to defend that claim is pretty attrotious dude. 



First, I'd like you to read this:

http://nintendo3dsdaily.com/nintendoarticles/nintendo-needs-no-more-franchises-why-the-misconception-of-nintendo-as-not-innovating-is-wrong/

Next, I'd like to compare some sales data for you:

New Super Mario Bros Wii: 26.8 mil sold worldwide

Baten Kaitos franchise: .37
+ Captain Rainbow*: .01
+ Cubivore: Survival of the Fittest: .17
+ Doshin the Giant*: .14
+ Drill Dozer: .05
+ Electroplankton***: .03
+ Endless Ocean franchise: 1.84
+ Excite Truck & Excitebots: .51 & .23
+ Fortune Street: .40
+ Geist: .15
+ Giftpia: .11
+ Kid Icarus Uprising: 1.04
+ The Last Story: .51
+ The Legendary Starfy: .81
+ Odama: .11
+ Pandora's Tower**: .17
+ Pikmin franchise: 3.8
+ Steel Diver: .37
+ Wii Music: 3.19
+ Xenoblade: .83
--------------------
11.65 million

*Japan only
** Hasn't launched in NA yet, not that it will make much of a difference
***There are a ton more titles under this IP, but VGC only has data for the one I listed. I think it's a safe bet that most of you haven't heard of it, let alone bought it.

I'll throw in some well-known IPs that "surprised" us with new or different art direction or gameplay, and even throw in Donkey Kong Country Returns, since that caught everyone off guard when it was announced:

DK: King of Swing: .24
Donkey Konga franchise: 1.54
Donkey Kong Country Returns: 5.93
+ Kirby's Epic Yarn: 2.02
+ Metroid: Other M* :1.2
------------------------
10.93 million

*Other M numbers are misleading, because the game was heavily marked down within months after launch. I got a brand new copy for $9 less than a year after it launched.

**I wanted to include IPs like Maboshi's Arcade, Sakura Samurai, Pushmo, Dillon's Rolling Western and a couple of other download-only IPs I can't think the name of, but of course I couldn't find sales data for them. I doubt they've sold enough to bump the total for the rest of the lot up NSMBWii's total though.

26.8 mil > 22.58 mil. So NSMBWii (the game, not the NSMB IP) does more for Nintendo than all those new IPs, fresh ideas and creative takes on games combined.

That's what "surprises" have gotten Nintendo. Yet, for all the complaining so-called hardcore gamers do about the Mario franchise, especially NSMB, it flies off shelves. Tell me, how many of those games in that list have you heard of, let alone purchased? I said it before, I'll say it again: Nintendo doesn't decide what becomes a hit; only YOU can do that, with your wallet. If it was up to Nintendo, every one of its games would sell like NSMBWii.

If surprise means come up with something new or do something unexpected with an established property, then you can clearly see Nintendo does it all the time. But as soon as it gives the masses what they really want, the outspoken few begin crying foul. The real question is whether us gamers are even able or willing to surprise anymore.




They need to go back to giving another studio more autonomy to make original games.

The N64 had GoldenEye and Blast Corps and Jet Force Gemini and Perfect Dark and Conker, which were pretty far removed from Mario/Zelda/usual sequel. That kept things fresh.

But really I have zero qualms with LttP2. Tapping into nostalgia isn't always bad and as far as I can see this looks more compelling than another DS Zelda.



Mazty said:
Viper1 said:
Mazty said:

Well "mechs" is pretty open ended e.g. ZoE, Hawken etc, but either way, that's the issue - Nintendo are limiting their audience by tying in game mechanics to IP's rather than create a concept and see where it goes. Their vision is limited by this and I think the Wii U will highlight this problem. 

So I give you a perfect example of how they establish a new IP to fit around a gameplay mechanic and you practically ignored it.   And you single out the Wii U for whatever reason despite this being their mind set since the late 1970's.

But nevermind.  It's Nintendo and you're going to be negative about them no matter what.

Gameplay mechanic - use the wii u pad as a console for a vehicle/mode of transport that involves numerous functions e.g. power, radar, ejection etc etc. 

Where can that be fitted into? Mario? Link, Brawl, Metroid? Nope. 
Also most of those are relatively child friendly so if the gameplay mechanic involved something serious e.g. precision damage, I doubt nintendo would ever want to make any of their IP's "mature" in that sense. They are limiting mechanics by saying that they want it to fit into an existing IP.

It's Nintendo. I loved the SNES and thought the N64 was brilliant. What I don't do however is mindlessly worship a company and unrealistically view any of their products and I'm not going to start to do so now. Nintendo admitted it sucks at core games, and those games tend to be mature in focus, ergo by sticking to it's own IP's Nintendo are limiting their options, not expanding them.

I'm guessing they would put it on Star Fox. You've got the ships, tank, submarine, and could add a mech too if they really wanted. It even featured "precision" damage by way of attacking certain parts on enemies/bosses. They don't start out saying "Okay, what can we fit into an existing idea" they start with gameplay demos, and then in order to maximize profits they see if an existing IP fits within the gameplay. Kirby's Epic Yarn originally had Prince Puff as the lead without Kirby at all, Smash Bros didn't originally feature any Nintendo characters . They added the existing franchises to them because new IP's generally do not sell very well, especially when pushed up against their usual games.

Take Pikmin for instance. They had a tech demo for the Gamecube referred to as Mario 128 that featured 128 Marios  running around picking up blocks, rolling each other off the platform and so on. That sort of gameplay mechanic truely didn't fit into any of their current franchises (Mario, Zelda, Metroid, Donkey Kong, Kirby, Star Fox etc etc) so Miyamoto came up with a new idea. He is creating a new IP for the Wii U as we speak even. Granted, it probably won't be "mature" or "gritty" or anything like that, but it doesn't need to be. If people want that, they have every other platform you could think of to get their fix.

If you start out thinking "New IP" you end up with a more difficult development than if you start out with pure gameplay ideas. When Retro first became a part of Nintendo, they made several new IP's, but they all ended up being cancelled because they were half-inspired, low quality messes. Once Retro was able to put their full effort into Metroid Prime, they worked magic.

OT: Yes, I think Nintendo can still surprise us. We know very little about LttP2 (not even the final title) and I expect the wall shifting and vertical 3D aspects will make it one of Nintendo's best games, like Galaxy was. Imo, Skyward Sword was impressive. Maybe not for the linear story (loved the plot though), but for the gameplay that made motion gaming fun and showcased some of the true potential of the Wii. It came way too late to the console to inspire ideas from anyone else. I fully expect Nintendo to bring some quality games that redefine genres in the way Galaxy did...there's a reason why there haven't been any (successful) 3D platformers since Galaxy 2. Those two are the gold standard, and everything else is nowhere near up to par. It's still far too early to say they aren't able to surprise people anymore, after E3 would be a better time for this discussion, and preferably after the games are released so it isn't based on pure speculation.



It is hard to do any sort of surprising at all anywhere, unless you decide to go new interface route like Nintendo has.  Nintendo has franchises for about everything gamers would want at this point.  And they do these franchises in new ways, utilizing the second screen.  An annoying aspect here is when Nintendo tries to do something different, out comes the complaining, "Don't want!"