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Forums - General Discussion - Angela Merkel = Hitler II?

sapphi_snake said:
Barozi said:
sapphi_snake said:

@Barozi:

Freedom of religion, a Christian value? - That's a secular value, not a Chirsitan one.

No forced marriages, a Chrisitan value? - It was practiced by Chrisitans up until a century ago. It's a cultural value, that has nothing to do with religion.

Equality for women, a Chrisitan value? - Islam has that one too. But in both Islam and Chrisitanity women are considered to be "equal" to men, but "different", each having already established roles (a woman's place is in the home, the man is the provider etc.). The "equality" between genders in Chrisitanity is totally different from teh actual equality in modern Western society.

She doesn't want anyone to become Christian with that statement.

Forcing someone to subscribe to the values of a certain religion is no different than forcing them to convert to said religion. Religion is something personal, so individuals can choose to follow the values of a certain religion, however society at large musn't adhere to the moral teachings of any religion, if religious freedom is something that society strives for of course.

Christian values are strongly tied with Western values. There's not much more to say, it's basically a synonym.
We Germans understand that it's the same and we Germans don't give a crap if you want to understand it or not.

 

As for the last part. Again she doesn't want you to believe in Jesus or such crap she simply states that certain moslem traditions are not welcomed in this country, because they are against the law (mostly human rights).

And I'm unbaptizied and didn't even vote for her party.

If you want to think that, go ahead. It's contrary to reality though.

only in your own reality though



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UncleScrooge said:

Yeah I get why you misinterpreted it, it sounds really weird in the article. I don't where that "without an accent" came from, by the way

When Merkel says "christian values" she is talking about western, secular values, actually. But she is the leader of the conservative party ("Christian Democratic Union") so it fits her voters better.

And nobody wants to force people to any religion - basically she says people who don't want to learn german and do not respect "christian" values (she was heavily critizised for calling them "christian" values from like... everyone ) isn't welcome in Germany.

Now whether we agree with this or not is up to debate (I disagree with a lot of things she said) but she never said she'd force people to become christians. Only 60% of the german population believe in god, anwyways.

You really can't compare that to Hitler. Basically what the Conservative party wants is to introduce a system to regulate immigration - like the US has it already.

She used the wrong words, she gets flamed.



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)

Barozi said:
sapphi_snake said:
Barozi said:
sapphi_snake said:

@Barozi:

Freedom of religion, a Christian value? - That's a secular value, not a Chirsitan one.

No forced marriages, a Chrisitan value? - It was practiced by Chrisitans up until a century ago. It's a cultural value, that has nothing to do with religion.

Equality for women, a Chrisitan value? - Islam has that one too. But in both Islam and Chrisitanity women are considered to be "equal" to men, but "different", each having already established roles (a woman's place is in the home, the man is the provider etc.). The "equality" between genders in Chrisitanity is totally different from teh actual equality in modern Western society.

She doesn't want anyone to become Christian with that statement.

Forcing someone to subscribe to the values of a certain religion is no different than forcing them to convert to said religion. Religion is something personal, so individuals can choose to follow the values of a certain religion, however society at large musn't adhere to the moral teachings of any religion, if religious freedom is something that society strives for of course.

Christian values are strongly tied with Western values. There's not much more to say, it's basically a synonym.
We Germans understand that it's the same and we Germans don't give a crap if you want to understand it or not.

 

As for the last part. Again she doesn't want you to believe in Jesus or such crap she simply states that certain moslem traditions are not welcomed in this country, because they are against the law (mostly human rights).

And I'm unbaptizied and didn't even vote for her party.

If you want to think that, go ahead. It's contrary to reality though.

only in your own reality though

Whatever dude. Read some books on the subject and see who's living in his own reality.



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)

Didn't the Turkish president say learn German "without an accent" to his own people...



 

Face the future.. Gamecenter ID: nikkom_nl (oh no he didn't!!) 

so either multiculturalism doesnt work...

OR

Right Wing governments just arent trying hard enough, because if it does work, they have to start being nice to people who dont conform to what they want them to be.



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Barozi said:
sapphi_snake said:
Barozi said:
sapphi_snake said:

@Barozi:

Freedom of religion, a Christian value? - That's a secular value, not a Chirsitan one.

No forced marriages, a Chrisitan value? - It was practiced by Chrisitans up until a century ago. It's a cultural value, that has nothing to do with religion.

Equality for women, a Chrisitan value? - Islam has that one too. But in both Islam and Chrisitanity women are considered to be "equal" to men, but "different", each having already established roles (a woman's place is in the home, the man is the provider etc.). The "equality" between genders in Chrisitanity is totally different from teh actual equality in modern Western society.

She doesn't want anyone to become Christian with that statement.

Forcing someone to subscribe to the values of a certain religion is no different than forcing them to convert to said religion. Religion is something personal, so individuals can choose to follow the values of a certain religion, however society at large musn't adhere to the moral teachings of any religion, if religious freedom is something that society strives for of course.

Christian values are strongly tied with Western values. There's not much more to say, it's basically a synonym.
We Germans understand that it's the same and we Germans don't give a crap if you want to understand it or not.

 

As for the last part. Again she doesn't want you to believe in Jesus or such crap she simply states that certain moslem traditions are not welcomed in this country, because they are against the law (mostly human rights).

And I'm unbaptizied and didn't even vote for her party.

If you want to think that, go ahead. It's contrary to reality though.

only in your own reality though

I'm not surprised sapphi feels this way, to be honest. I'm extremely baffled what hit Merkel that she moved to the right during the last months. I guess polling below 30% made the difference...

And I think it's absolutely neccessary to talk about this from the view of a muslim. When I was a child I was guest in a muslim family almost daily. Just like 99% of all muslims they were just normal people. The problems in our society are no problems of religion. In the first place it's a matter of education and chances in life. Ask anybody if they are scared of people from balkan states. They will look at you baffled and ask "why should I be scared of those people?" Well, a lot of people in the Balkan states are muslims, aren't they? So is it really about religion?

That's the funny thing with statistics: You can prove whatever you want with them. Had Sarrazzin written a book about "Hauptschüler" destroying our society it would have been a lot easier to "prove" his claim (!!!) Does that mean people lacking high education should be pushed out of the country?

And I really hate it how even politicians begin to classify people by the amount of money they bring in. What happened to us that a person's life is worth less than the money that person earns? It's really creepy because it happens all over Europe and in the US.



Homer_Simpson said:

so either multiculturalism doesnt work...

OR

Right Wing governments just arent trying hard enough, because if it does work, they have to start being nice to people who dont conform to what they want them to be.

Truth be told, it's pretty hard for multiculturalism to work. For example immigrants coming from a country where the culture is sexist will probably have a hard time making their traditional culture survive in their new home country where equality between sexes is the norm.



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)

Sounds fair to me:

Come to Germany and live like a German, or leave.

We should have this in the UK, but our 'leaders' are too soft.



sapphi_snake said:

I was reffering mainly to the "We feel tied to Christian values. Those who don't accept them don't have a place here". Sorry, this has nothing to do with multi-culturalism. Is she gonna start throwing people out of Germany because they're not German?

The "Christian values" would refer to the foundations on which Western civilization has grown. They are Jewish, Christian, Roman and Greek or so.

Our modern values are about equality of man and women, free speech, democracy, human rights, etc.

They can sometimes differ from Eastern or Middle-Eastern values.

 



sapphi_snake said:
UncleScrooge said:

Yeah I get why you misinterpreted it, it sounds really weird in the article. I don't where that "without an accent" came from, by the way

When Merkel says "christian values" she is talking about western, secular values, actually. But she is the leader of the conservative party ("Christian Democratic Union") so it fits her voters better.

And nobody wants to force people to any religion - basically she says people who don't want to learn german and do not respect "christian" values (she was heavily critizised for calling them "christian" values from like... everyone ) isn't welcome in Germany.

Now whether we agree with this or not is up to debate (I disagree with a lot of things she said) but she never said she'd force people to become christians. Only 60% of the german population believe in god, anwyways.

You really can't compare that to Hitler. Basically what the Conservative party wants is to introduce a system to regulate immigration - like the US has it already.

She used the wrong words, she gets flamed.


Feel free to flame her as much as you want. Actually I encourage you to do so because I disagree with her. I'm a center-left, pro-european guy with muslim and immigrant friends. I always thought Merkel was a good chancellor but she lost me with the debate about financially supporting Greece when she showed, well, nationalist tendencies. (Don't confuse this with "Nazi", though )

Just to give some more insight: For weeks now the german media has gone crazy about the possibility of a far-right party emerging (like in many parts of western Europe) because some conservatives feel Merkel isn't conservative enough. I guess this is her trying to get right-wing voters back but as I said I never would've expected Merkel herself to actually do this. But her governing coaltion is polling below 35% right now (< 30% Conservatives (CDU) and < 5% Liberals (FDP) - at the 2009 elections the two parties got 34% and 14% of the vote, respectively. ) and she is in danger of loosing the regional elections in South-West Germany (Baden-Württemberg) to the Greens (yes, the greens ) and I guess she's very worried.