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Forums - General Discussion - Angela Merkel = Hitler II?

@sapphi_snake

Why are you so worried about that? Are you living in Germany? =)



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sapphi_snake said:
HappySqurriel said:
sapphi_snake said:
HappySqurriel said:

Right ... Giving an honest assessment of a problem that is emerging in many western nations is the equivalent of being one of the worst mass murderers in history.

Honest? One of the biggest problems in Western nations is forcing people to become Christian?


I don't think you understand what was being said ...

Most western developed nations and their citizens, including those that are very secular in nature, share a set of values which were established centuries ago when these countries were (effectively) Christian countries. When people say that a Muslim immigrant (or any immigrant for that matter) needs to adopt Christian values they don't mean that these individuals need to convert, they mean that they have to adopt the prevailing values of the country they moved to.

Those values were in many instances borrowed by Christians from the ethics developed by the Greek philosophers. Also, values like freedom of religion, and secularism, have nothing to do with Christianity. None of the values Western nations currently hold can be attributed to Chrstianity. Some of them may coincide, but Christianity itself took values, as I said, from Greek philosophers.

And amongst the "non-Christian" values she called out was forced marriage, which was practiced in Western countries up until a century ago, and has nothing to do with religion. You certainly can't say that marrying whom you want is a "Christian value".

Either she worded what she wanted to say badly, or she's a right wind religious nut (most likely scenario IMHO).


Many Christian countries had arranged marriages at one point in time, they haven't been common in centuries, and they were (mostly) not forced marriages.

Beyond that, I don't know German well but the phrase "Christian Values" could easily be a loose translation of a word we don't have in English. Even in English the phrase "Christian Values" has a certain connotation which typically implies being charitable, understanding and tolerant but does not mean to become a Christian or abandon the beliefs of another religion.



Germany isn't the US, if Germany wants to impose a religion on those living within it's boarders then so be it.

1. If you aren't German then this isn't your problem.

2. They aren't harrassing or killing muslims nor spreading lies about muslims from what was given, how is this equal to hitler?

3. Hitler kills Christians and Catholic clergy if they stoop up to his misrepresentation of their religion.

4. There is nothing wrong with GERMANS saying GET OUT OF OUR COUNTRY if they are saying to someone who refuses to learn their language and understand their culture.

I mean now-a-days an american is hard pressed to walk into Afgan and leave with his head. 



I'm Unamerica and you can too.

The Official Huge Monster Hunter Thread: 



The Hunt Begins 4/20/2010 =D

Barozi pretty much summed up what I was going to say, adopting Christian values doesn't mean converting to Christianity. 



@Barozi:

Freedom of religion, a Christian value? - That's a secular value, not a Chirsitan one.

No forced marriages, a Chrisitan value? - It was practiced by Chrisitans up until a century ago. It's a cultural value, that has nothing to do with religion.

Equality for women, a Chrisitan value? - Islam has that one too. But in both Islam and Chrisitanity women are considered to be "equal" to men, but "different", each having already established roles (a woman's place is in the home, the man is the provider etc.). The "equality" between genders in Chrisitanity is totally different from teh actual equality in modern Western society.

She doesn't want anyone to become Christian with that statement.

Forcing someone to subscribe to the values of a certain religion is no different than forcing them to convert to said religion. Religion is something personal, so individuals can choose to follow the values of a certain religion, however society at large musn't adhere to the moral teachings of any religion, if religious freedom is something that society strives for of course.



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

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mai said:

@sapphi_snake

Why are you so worried about that? Are you living in Germany? =)

Because I care, mai. Maybe some crazy right wind wackos from my religious onservative country will decide to follow her example.



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)

@dib8rman:

 

1. If you aren't German then this isn't your problem.

So I can't have an opinion about this? Plus Germany is part of the EU, so maybe son they'll try to promote Christianity as the "European religion".

2. They aren't harrassing or killing muslims nor spreading lies about muslims from what was given, how is this equal to hitler?

This isn't onyl about muslims. Here comments are insulting to all non-Christians in Germany, and from what I know Germany isn't a very religious country, so I doubt many Germans appreciate the "we feel tied to Christian values" part of her speach.

3. Hitler kills Christians and Catholic clergy if they stoop up to his misrepresentation of their religion.

Protestants and Catholics also killed eachother due to the differences of their religions.

4. There is nothing wrong with GERMANS saying GET OUT OF OUR COUNTRY if they are saying to someone who refuses to learn their language and understand their culture.

Religion and culture are 2 different things. I agree with the immigrants having to adapt to German culture, but in no way should they have to follow the religious values of Christianity.



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)

sapphi_snake said:

@Barozi:

Freedom of religion, a Christian value? - That's a secular value, not a Chirsitan one.

No forced marriages, a Chrisitan value? - It was practiced by Chrisitans up until a century ago. It's a cultural value, that has nothing to do with religion.

Equality for women, a Chrisitan value? - Islam has that one too. But in both Islam and Chrisitanity women are considered to be "equal" to men, but "different", each having already established roles (a woman's place is in the home, the man is the provider etc.). The "equality" between genders in Chrisitanity is totally different from teh actual equality in modern Western society.

She doesn't want anyone to become Christian with that statement.

Forcing someone to subscribe to the values of a certain religion is no different than forcing them to convert to said religion. Religion is something personal, so individuals can choose to follow the values of a certain religion, however society at large musn't adhere to the moral teachings of any religion, if religious freedom is something that society strives for of course.

Christian values are strongly tied with Western values. There's not much more to say, it's basically a synonym.
We Germans understand that it's the same and we Germans don't give a crap if you want to understand it or not.

 

As for the last part. Again she doesn't want you to believe in Jesus or such crap she simply states that certain moslem traditions are not welcomed in this country, because they are against the law (mostly human rights).

And I'm unbaptizied and didn't even vote for her party.



sapphi_snake said:

@Barozi:

Freedom of religion, a Christian value? - That's a secular value, not a Chirsitan one.

No forced marriages, a Chrisitan value? - It was practiced by Chrisitans up until a century ago. It's a cultural value, that has nothing to do with religion.

Equality for women, a Chrisitan value? - Islam has that one too. But in both Islam and Chrisitanity women are considered to be "equal" to men, but "different", each having already established roles (a woman's place is in the home, the man is the provider etc.). The "equality" between genders in Chrisitanity is totally different from teh actual equality in modern Western society.

She doesn't want anyone to become Christian with that statement.

Forcing someone to subscribe to the values of a certain religion is no different than forcing them to convert to said religion. Religion is something personal, so individuals can choose to follow the values of a certain religion, however society at large musn't adhere to the moral teachings of any religion, if religious freedom is something that society strives for of course.

Yeah I get why you misinterpreted it, it sounds really weird in the article. I don't where that "without an accent" came from, by the way

When Merkel says "christian values" she is talking about western, secular values, actually. But she is the leader of the conservative party ("Christian Democratic Union") so it fits her voters better.

And nobody wants to force people to any religion - basically she says people who don't want to learn german and do not respect "christian" values (she was heavily critizised for calling them "christian" values from like... everyone ) isn't welcome in Germany.

Now whether we agree with this or not is up to debate (I disagree with a lot of things she said) but she never said she'd force people to become christians. Only 60% of the german population believe in god, anwyways.

You really can't compare that to Hitler. Basically what the Conservative party wants is to introduce a system to regulate immigration - like the US has it already.



Barozi said:
sapphi_snake said:

@Barozi:

Freedom of religion, a Christian value? - That's a secular value, not a Chirsitan one.

No forced marriages, a Chrisitan value? - It was practiced by Chrisitans up until a century ago. It's a cultural value, that has nothing to do with religion.

Equality for women, a Chrisitan value? - Islam has that one too. But in both Islam and Chrisitanity women are considered to be "equal" to men, but "different", each having already established roles (a woman's place is in the home, the man is the provider etc.). The "equality" between genders in Chrisitanity is totally different from teh actual equality in modern Western society.

She doesn't want anyone to become Christian with that statement.

Forcing someone to subscribe to the values of a certain religion is no different than forcing them to convert to said religion. Religion is something personal, so individuals can choose to follow the values of a certain religion, however society at large musn't adhere to the moral teachings of any religion, if religious freedom is something that society strives for of course.

Christian values are strongly tied with Western values. There's not much more to say, it's basically a synonym.
We Germans understand that it's the same and we Germans don't give a crap if you want to understand it or not.

 

As for the last part. Again she doesn't want you to believe in Jesus or such crap she simply states that certain moslem traditions are not welcomed in this country, because they are against the law (mostly human rights).

And I'm unbaptizied and didn't even vote for her party.

If you want to think that, go ahead. It's contrary to reality though.



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)