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Forums - Sony Discussion - PS3 now 70% Cheaper to Produce!

Slimebeast said:
Dgc1808 said:
Slimebeast said:
Munkeh111 said:
Well PS2 is definitely profitable from a hardware side, and now apparently the PS3 makes more profit that the PS2 sells for, and I think the PSP makes money

On a software side, SCE are definitely profitable, most of their games sell in excess of 1m copies


How can everything be profitable when overall Sony Entertainment has been posting losses for three years in a row?

You're just making things up.

The 1st party software is not profitable. Sony games have huge budgets and never sell well since the PSP/PS3 era. Also, when MS is selling away a lot of their first party you can suspect that Sony doesnt make profit on their 1st party either (but it still might be worth it overall, because 1st party games sell consoles, which in turn moves third party software). The little money Sony Entertainment makes comes from the $10 license fees from third party. 

Explain yourself???

Because both Naughty Dogg and Inzomniac have stated that Uncharted 1 and the first PS3 Ratchet did well...
Do you think every game on PS3 has a huge budget JUST BECAUSE it is on PS3???

Ratchet and Clank Future: Tools of Destruction
Resistance1
Resistance2
Ratchet and Clank Future: Quest for Booty

Are all running on the same engine with improvements between each games release... This alone saves tons of cash. If the first Ratchet's sales were good, how well do you think every game after did?

It's simple. We actually have a reference point to compare to.

Take third party games in general - we know that overall, they have a very hard time to make a profit. Not only do we know that 4 out of 5 games are losing money, but we also know that publishers on average don't make more than 10% in profit - if even that.
I'm sure you've read the news about financial reports - most of the publishers, EA, Sqauer Enix, THQ, Take Two, EIDOS, Sega, Atari Capcom, Codemasters, are losing money or making small profits. Year after year.

What can we deduct from this? That in general proifit margins are small.

So how on earth can exclusive games who are released on a limited market be the ones making money? (Im not talking about Nintendo here, theyre the exception to the rule)

We all can see that Sony games are very well made, and quality in general means higher costs.

Take Infamous vs Prototipe for example.

Infamous is obviously more expensive, you can see it had a higher budget than Prototipe. But who will sell most?

Prototipe of course. Infamouse will end at 1.2 million. Prototipe at 800K PS3 and 1.3 mill X360 = 2.1 mill.

2.1 mill vs 1.2 mill. So if we know that games like Prototipe in general make only 10% in profit (on average), we can deduct that the corresponding exclusive games on PS3 lose money. It's mathematically impossible that a 1.2 mill seller can make money, if a cheaper 2.1 mill seller only made 10% money (even if we account for the $10 per copy license fee).

Just do the math and you'll find out.

Notice though that there are other positive effects with having a strong 1st party - it's a strong selling point in the console war, and thus possibly profitable overall if we include the second hand sales 1st party games generate.

How can you just say inFamous is more expensive? inFamous could have been finished in 2 years on a bigger team, Sucker Punch chose to go with less people and finished in 3. So I'm guessing you know how long and how many people it took on Prototype's development?

Also, this doesn't really prove anything because I'm pretty sure SONY would know how to develop games cheaper and more efficiently than a 3rd party...

For things like license fees and what not SONY is also paying less.



4 ≈ One

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well i read something some time ago. dont remember where. that SONY broke even with heavenly sword. i think it was heavenly sword. or it was another game???. god i dont remember. i think it was heavenly sword.



Slimebeast said:
Uncharted profit analysis:

Budget: $20 million (official number)
marketing: $10 million (low estimation)
Total expenses = $30 million


Total lifetime copies shipped: 2.5 million
- of which 1.25 million bundled
- of which 1.25 million sold at retail

Revenue: 1.25 million x $30 million (generous estimation of per copy revenue) = $37.5 million

Profit: $37.5 - $30 mill = $7.5 million

7.5M is  20% of 37.5M..... So... you kinda just showed how your 10% crap you stated earlier means nothing....



4 ≈ One

Slimebeast said:
outlawauron said:
lol, Heavenly Sword marketing cost $10 million. You're just pulling out random numbers here Slimebeast.

Well, marketing in this business is a big part of a publishers expenses. A general rule of thumb is to calculate marketing to be 50% of the development budget. And then adjust on a per game basis according to the general impression of how much the game was announced and amount of previews in media etc. Heavenly Sword was marketed at least as much as an average AAA game. 

Of course it's a big part, but Sony doesn't advertise.

And we don't know that advertising wasn't included in Uncharted's budget number.



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Slimebeast said:
Munkeh111 said:
Slimebeast said:
Munkeh111 said:
Slimebeast said:
Kantor said:
Slimebeast said:
Munkeh111 said:
Well PS2 is definitely profitable from a hardware side, and now apparently the PS3 makes more profit that the PS2 sells for, and I think the PSP makes money

On a software side, SCE are definitely profitable, most of their games sell in excess of 1m copies


How can everything be profitable when overall Sony Entertainment has been posting losses for three years in a row?

You're just making things up.

The 1st party software is not profitable. Sony games have huge budgets and never sell well since the PSP/PS3 era. Also, when MS is selling away a lot of their first party you can suspect that Sony doesnt make profit on their 1st party either (but it still might be worth it overall, because 1st party games sell consoles, which in turn moves third party software). The little money Sony Entertainment makes comes from the $10 license fees from third party. 

SCE WWS has been profitable for a long time. The PS3, however, is still selling at a loss. Can you name any Sony games released recently which could feasibly have lost money?

All of them except MGS4 (and that is maybe not even published by Sony but Konami?).

Well, LBP i'd say indeed also made a profit.

Like Uncharted, which sold 2.5m on a $20m budget. Or Insomniac who manage to release a game which sell about 1.5m copies every year, with 150 people.

If SCE was losing money, do you really think that there would not have been any job cuts? Banjo did not sell enough, so Rare has had job cuts. SCE make Sony money, so they are not going to drop support of it

Im confused. Isnt it a well established fact that SCE has been losing 100's of millions of Dollars during the last three years?

Uncharted probably made a small profit, and yes, Insomniac are probably also profitabel. But u have to weight those two against all the other first party titles that are losin money. What abot Motorstorms? And so far KZ2 lost money. Hevenly Sword, Lair lost money.

Sorry, SCEWWS. So Motorstorm 1 sold 3.48m, but yeah it was bundled, but that is certainly plenty. Pacific Rift is very likely undertracked, it sold 1m according to the developer: http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/motorstorm-pacific-rift-passes-one-million-sales.

Heavenly Sword sold about 1.4m, made by a team with only about 25 employees, in 3 years, so that would have had a reasonably small budget.

Yes, Lair was a flop

 

Motorstorm was bundled. Real retail copies was probably just 1 million. And I think Sony games are sold at retail for $50 instead of $60.
So only 1 million copies x $20 = $20 million. And being a early in generation game they made probably lots of newbie mistakes and thus the game got more expensive development. So Motorstorm profit estimate:
revenue $20 million
costs (budget $20 mill + marketing $15 million) $35 million
----------------------------
Motorstorm losses = $ 15 million

Pacifik Rift I dunno if it was bundled, but it was uge flop so I estimate it only shipped 750,000 copies to retail. Althoug it was also cheaper and marketed less:
revenue: (750,000 x $20) $15 mill
costs (budget $15 mill + marketing $10 million) $25 million
---------
Motorstorm 2 losses = $10 mill

Heavenly Sword I think was bundled somewhat, plus it was sold for rebate and bargain bin mostly. So per copy revenue was probably just $15 on 1 million copies (the rest, 400,000 I estimate were bundled) and thus total revenue only $15 mill.

It's well documented that HW cost $20 million (discussed on VGC). Add marketing and you got $30 mill.

Heavenly Sword losses = $15 million

Lair was even worse. Also rumured to have cost $20 mill. Same marketing, but worse sales.

Lair estimated losses = $20 million.



Then SOCOM and Warhawk probably lost a lot of money.

You truly are a funny guy. Way more than 1m for MS. It sold 1.89m in Europe, and most o the time it was not in a forced bundle, there was no a little bit, but not a huge amount, certainly 1.75m out of the 3.5m were sold without bundles, at the very least. And the idea of $15m marketing is a joke. So then you ignore the link I gave you about MS PR selling 1m, and then once again, your marketing idea is a complete joke, and the budget is too high. Heavenly Sword was not bundled and it was barely marketed, most of the time these games generate $30, so $15 is an extremely low estimate. Yeah, let's just not talk about Lair, it flopped, though it would have generated $10m at the least

Sony games are sold for $60 in the US, some are sold at £45 in the UK, but it varies



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Slimebeast said:
Uncharted profit analysis:

Budget: $20 million (official number)
marketing: $10 million (low estimation)
Total expenses = $30 million


Total lifetime copies shipped: 2.5 million
- of which 1.25 million bundled
- of which 1.25 million sold at retail

Revenue: 1.25 million x $30 million (generous estimation of per copy revenue) = $37.5 million

Profit: $37.5 - $30 mill = $7.5 million

Uncharted sold 1.4m in Others alone, where there were not any official bundles. In another thread I estimate that it sold 2m un-bundled copies. And once again, $10m is rubbish, it was barely advertised. Apart from LBP, barely and Sony games have actually been advertised, but that only cost $5m to make



tongue in cheek


We were able to achieve this amazing 70% cost reduction by removing PS2 backward compatibility, the flash memory card reader and 2 USB ports. We have also removed the Cell processor and RSX chip and bluray drive. We now fill every PS3 unit with a bucket of sand. We have also unbundled the dual shock controller. We also moved our production facility from China to a 4th world country that employs chimpanzees. But, we will start to include an HDMI cable with every PS3.

/tongue in cheek

If Sony is finally making money on the hardware, good for them. I'll be waiting for the PS3 slim if/when it comes out. I just hope it incorporates 45nm cell processor.



awesome its good to see sony isnt struggling with money quite as much. Hopefully they will release a $299 PS3 with BC.



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Dgc1808 said:
Slimebeast said:
Uncharted profit analysis:

Budget: $20 million (official number)
marketing: $10 million (low estimation)
Total expenses = $30 million


Total lifetime copies shipped: 2.5 million
- of which 1.25 million bundled
- of which 1.25 million sold at retail

Revenue: 1.25 million x $30 million (generous estimation of per copy revenue) = $37.5 million

Profit: $37.5 - $30 mill = $7.5 million

7.5M is  20% of 37.5M..... So... you kinda just showed how your 10% crap you stated earlier means nothing....


Com'on don't be ridiculous. You think I wasn't aware of that?¨

I showed an example from the other end of the spectrum, namely one of the more successful 1st party games for Sony in this generation.

The purpose was to show how comparatively low the profit figure 20% is, to give people an idea of how unlikely it actually is that the profitable 1st party games of this gen outweights the unprofitable ones. 



outlawauron said:
Slimebeast said:
outlawauron said:
lol, Heavenly Sword marketing cost $10 million. You're just pulling out random numbers here Slimebeast.

Well, marketing in this business is a big part of a publishers expenses. A general rule of thumb is to calculate marketing to be 50% of the development budget. And then adjust on a per game basis according to the general impression of how much the game was announced and amount of previews in media etc. Heavenly Sword was marketed at least as much as an average AAA game. 

Of course it's a big part, but Sony doesn't advertise.

And we don't know that advertising wasn't included in Uncharted's budget number.


Huh? Of course Sony advertise.

And of course the marketing budget wasn't included in the official Uncharted $20 mill dev budget. They never are.