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Forums - Sony Discussion - [Blog Article] Is Sony too artsy for its own good?

Your use of innovative is so loose I could define Uncharted as innovative because it's grabbing mechanics work well.

Here's a list of level editors from a wide variety of games. That doesn't include fan made editors, or a number of editors for older FPSs like Quake.

* 3D Construction Kit
* 3D Construction Kit II
* A-Train HX Map Editor on Xbox 360 (In-Game)
* Act of War: Direct Action and Act of War: High Treason Map Editor
* Advance Wars Design Room for Advance Wars and Advance Wars 2: Black Hole Rising on the GBA, and for Advance Wars: Dual Strike and Advance Wars: Days of Ruin on the Nintendo DS
* Adventure Construction Set
* The Age of Empires series Scenario Editors
* Age of Mythology Scenario Editor
* Age of Wonders II: The Wizard's Throne Scenario Editor
* ScenMaker Scenario Editor for Airborne Assault: Red Devils Over Arnhem
* Arcade Game Construction Kit
* Armies of Armageddon: WDK-2K Wargame Developers Kit
* Aurora Toolset for the Aurora Engine used by Neverwinter Nights, Neverwinter Nights: Hordes of the Underdark, Neverwinter Nights: Shadows of Undrentide and The Witcher
* AA Toolset editor for Axis & Allies
* Bard's Tale Construction Set
* Battlefield 1942 Map Editor
* BF2 Editor for Battlefield 2
* Blast Works has a level, ship, shape, and bullet editor
* Boom Blox has a create mode where you can make your own levels and puzzles.
* Boulder Dash Construction Kit
* Build, for Build engine based games such as Duke Nukem 3D, Shadow Warrior or Blood
* CART Precision Racing Track Editor
* Chaser Level Editor
* ChromEd Editor for the Chrome Engine used by Chrome and Call of Juarez
* Civilization II Map Editor
* Civilization III Map Editor
* WorldBuilder for Civilization IV
* Combat Mission: Beyond Overlord Mission Editor
* Darkstone Quest Editor
* Doom Builder, a level editor with an ACS scripting editor for Doom and Doom II and source ports such as ZDoom
* Company of Heroes Map Editor
* Commando Level Editor for Command & Conquer: Renegade
* DromEd for the Dark Engine used by Thief: The Dark Project and Thief 2: The Metal Age
* Dark Reign Map Editor
* Dark Reign 2 Map Editor
* Deer Hunter 2004 Map Editor
* DFBHDMED Mission Editor for Delta Force: Black Hawk Down
* DFXMED Mission Editor for Delta Force Xtreme
* Deus Ex SDK for Deus Ex (UnrealEd)
* DinkEdit for Dink Smallwood
* Disciples: Sacred Lands Editor
* Disciples II: Dark Prophecy Editor
* D3Radiant for Doom 3
* The Elder Scrolls Construction Set construction set for The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind and Oblivion
* Earth 2150: The Moon Project Editor
* Earth 2150: Lost Souls Editor
* Earth 2160 Editor
* Elebits Level Editor on Wii (In-Game)
* Emperor: Battle for Dune Map Editor
* Empire Earth Map Editor
* Essential Sudoku DS Puzzle Editor on DS (In-Game)
* Excitebike for the NES (Nintendo Entertainment System)
* Far Cry Instincts and Far Cry Instincts Evolution Map Editor on Xbox and Far Cry Instincts Predator Map Editor on Xbox 360 (In-Game)
* Far Cry 2 Multiplayer Map Editor on PC, Xbox 360 (In-Game), PS3 (In-Game)
* Field Commander Map Editor on PSP
* Final Alert Map Editor for Command & Conquer Red Alert 2
* Forge, the map editor for Marathon Infinity
* FRED and FRED2 (later FRED2Open) for Descent: FreeSpace — The Great War and Freespace 2 respectively.
* G.E.C.K., an editor for Fallout 3
* GMEdit, an editor for Get Medieval
* Gish Level Editor
* GenEd Map Editor for Ground Control
* XEd Map Editor for Ground Control II: Operation Exodus
* Halo: Combat Evolved Map Editor
* Halo 2 Map Editor
* Halo 3 Forge Mode (In-Game)
* Heavy Gear II Level Editor
* The Heroes of Might and Magic series Editors
* Hidden & Dangerous Deluxe Editor
* Homeworld 2 Map Editor
* QERadiant for the id Tech 3
* IGOR for Tom Clancy's Ghost Recon
* irrEdit for the Irrlicht Engine
* Jazz Creation Station for Jazz Jackrabbit 2 and Jazz Jackrabbit 2: The Secret Files
* JED for Jedi Knight: Dark Forces II
* NILE Editor for Joint Operations: Typhoon Rising
* Journey's End Editor
* KnightShift Map Editor
* Kohan: Immortal Sovereigns Map Editor
* Kyle Petty's No Fear Racing Track Editor on Super Nintendo
* LEGO Stunt Rally Construction Mode
* Lemmings Level Editor on PSP
* Lemmingball Z Level Editor
* LittleBigPlanet Editor on PS3 (In-Game)
* LocoRoco Level Editor on PSP
* Lode runner
* Lords of EverQuest Map Editor
* Mario vs. Donkey Kong 2: March of the Minis Level Editor on Nintendo DS
* Massive Assault and Massive Assault Network Scenario Editor
* Maxed for Max Payne
* Maxed2 for Max Payne 2
* MechCommander Gold Map Editor
* MechCommander 2 Map Editor
* MechWarrior 4: Mercenaries Mission Editor
* MohRadiant Editor for Medal of Honor: Allied Assault
* Moto Racer 2 Track Editor
* Armadillo, the Track Editor for Motocross Madness and Motocross Madness 2
* Ned for N
* Need for Speed: V-Rally 2 Track Editor (In-Game)
* Anvil is the Open Source 3D world editor by OpenFrag
* Pariah Map Editor on Xbox (In-Game)
* Penny Racers Track Editor (N64)
* PrEditor for Prey
* PrismEd for the Prism3D Engine used by Duke Nukem: Manhattan Project
* Electron toolset for Neverwinter Nights 2
* NightStone Map Editor
* Operation Flashpoint's missions editor
* PAIN Editor for the PAIN Engine used by Painkiller
* Perimeter Map Editor
* Pharaoh Mission Editor
* Picross DS Puzzle Editor on Nintendo DS
* Pinball Construction Set
* QuakeEd Quake mapping tool for NextStep.
* Q3Radiant for Quake 3
* Q4Radiant for Quake 4
* Racing Destruction Set
* Rayman Designer for Rayman Gold
* Re-Volt Track Editor on [PC], [PS1], [N64], and [Dreamcast] (In-Game)
* Real War Map Editor
* RED Editor for Red Faction
* Riot Engine Editor for the Riot engine used by Drakan: Order of the Flame
* Rise of Nations Scenario Editor
* The Rollercoaster Tycoon series has a mode where you can make your own theme parks.
* Ryzom Ring Editor for The Saga of Ryzom
* Scapex for Sacrifice
* World Builder for SAGE engine used by Command & Conquer: Generals, Command & Conquer: Generals - Zero Hour, Battle for Middle-Earth and Battle for Middle-Earth 2, Command & Conquer 3: Tiberium Wars, and Command & Conquer 3: Kane's Wrath
* Sandbox for Far Cry
* Sandbox 2 for Crysis
* Second Life Edition Tools (In-Game)
* Serious Editor for the Serious Engine used by Serious Sam
* Serious Editor 2 for the Serious Engine 2 used by Serious Sam II
* The Battle for Wesnoth Map Editor
* The Settlers II Map Editor
* The Settlers II: 10th Anniversary Edition Map Editor
* The Settlers III Map Editor
* The Settlers IV Map Editor
* SEED the Map Editor for The Settlers: Rise Of An Empire
* Severance: Blade of Darkness Level Editor
* Ship Simulator 2008 Mission Editor
* Shoot'Em-Up Construction Kit
* Siege Editor for Dungeon Siege
* Siege Editor 2 for Dungeon Siege 2 and Dungeon Siege: Legends of Aranna
* Sins of a Solar Empire Galaxy and Particle Editors
* Soldiers of Anarchy Editor
* Soldat Map Maker Editor for Soldat
* Söldner: Secret Wars Editor
* StarEdit Editor for StarCraft
* Star Trek: Starship Creator Ship Creator
* Star Trek: Starship Creator Warp II Ship Creator
* BFBuilder for Star Wars: Battlefront
* Star Wars: Empire at War Map Editor
* Star Wars: Galactic Battlegrounds Scenario Editor
* Stronghold Map Editor
* Stronghold 2 Map Editor
* Stronghold Legends Map Editor
* Stunts Track Editor
* Stunt Playground in-game
* Sudden Strike Map Editor for Sudden Strike: Forever
* Sudden Strike 2 Map Editor for Sudden Strike: Resource War
* Sudden Strike 3 Map Editor
* Super Smash Bros. Brawl Stage Builder on Wii (In-Game)
* SuperTux Editor for SuperTux
* Supreme Commander Map Editor
* SWAT 4 Mission Editor
* Test Drive V-Rally track editor (Sega Dreamcast)
* Theatre of War Map Editor
* MapMaker for TimeSplitters
* MapMaker for TimeSplitters 2
* MapMaker for TimeSplitters: Future Perfect
* Thief: Deadly Shadows Editor (UnrealEd 2)
* Tomb Raider Level Editor for Tomb Raider: The Last Revelation
* Editors for the Torque Game Engine used by Starsiege: Tribes and Tribes 2
* Map and Mission Editors for Total Annihilation
* Trackmania series Track Editors
* Tribes: Vengeance Editor
* tUME A tile based map editor
* Tzar: The Burden of the Crown Editor
* UnrealEd for the Unreal series
* Valve Hammer Editor for the Source Engine used by Half-Life 2
* Vulcan, the original Marathon map editor, prone to crashing. Rewritten and became Forge.
* The War Engine Wargame Developers Kit
* Warcraft Map Editor for Warcraft
* Warcraft II Map Editor for Warcraft II
* Warcraft III World Editor for Warcraft III: Reign of Chaos and Warcraft III: Frozen Throne
* Warhammer: Mark of Chaos Map Editor
* Warhammer 40,000: Dawn of War Mod Tools
* Warlords II Scenario Builder for Warlords II and Warlords II Deluxe
* Warlords III Scenario Builder for Warlords III: Reign of Heroes and Warlords III: Darklords Rising
* Warlords IV: Heroes of Etheria Scenario Editor
* Warzone 2100 Map Editor
* Wizard and its sequel, Ultimate Wizard
* Lithtech WorldEdit for the Lithtech engine used by Blood 2, No One Lives Forever and F.E.A.R.
* World in Conflict Map Editor
* World War II: Panzer Claws Editor
* Worldcraft for Half-Life Original
* Worms Armageddon Map Editor
* X-Ray Level Editor for the X-Ray Engine used by S.T.A.L.K.E.R.: Shadow of Chernobyl
* ZZT Editor

And you're going to say LBP is innovative because it has a good level editor and method of sharing them? You're going to say that out of AAAAAALLLL of that, none of them have creation tools or hubs for sharing levels? Doing something well is different from doing something new.


I love littlebigplanet, I play it every week since I bought it on day 1. But I'm going to call a spade a spade. LBP was marketed as being massively innovative and that's why people call it massively innovative. But it doesn't do anything that hasn't been done before, it just does it well. But I guess doing something well is as innovative as doing something new. Call Of Duty 4 is officially is incredibly innovative.



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again, which one of those games in the pointless list includes a platforming level editor that lets you share individual pieces as well as levels on a youtube-like server?

your only innovation from Mario 64 was a rotating camera. I gotta tell ya, God of War did pretty well with a fixed camera. so it didin't change all future 3D games, just adding another method to use. Even if you say that's so innovative, it's only 1 element of the overall game. it's not like a new genre was created, and yet the game is still considered innovative.

Just tell me what game is like LBP, especially on consoles, but even on PC. You list a lot of games with level editors but that's not the innovative aspect, it's the implementation. As per my definition, found on dictionary.com, using a different method is an innovative activity.



btw, I play Axis and Allies, and counting "AA Toolset editor for Axis & Allies" as a level editor is ridiculous. Nice list...



windbane said:
again, which one of those games in the pointless list includes a platforming level editor that lets you share individual pieces as well as levels on a youtube-like server?

your only innovation from Mario 64 was a rotating camera. I gotta tell ya, God of War did pretty well with a fixed camera. so it didin't change all future 3D games, just adding another method to use. Even if you say that's so innovative, it's only 1 element of the overall game. it's not like a new genre was created, and yet the game is still considered innovative.

Just tell me what game is like LBP, especially on consoles, but even on PC. You list a lot of games with level editors but that's not the innovative aspect, it's the implementation. As per my definition, found on dictionary.com, using a different method is an innovative activity.

 

Again, have you played Spore? Also to that list you wanna add the following stuff:

Oh man, by that definition EVERY level editor is brand new and innovative stuff! Look at WC3 for example. What other editor lets you create specific maps where they can be TD, or AOS, or Melee, or RPG, or a bunch of toeher such stuff? Which don't even have to be shared since you just join a game and it auto DLs them for you?

 

See what I did there? Your attempts at specializng it are just sad to be honest.



Tag(thx fkusumot) - "Yet again I completely fail to see your point..."

HD vs Wii, PC vs HD: http://www.vgchartz.com/forum/thread.php?id=93374

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gamrReview's broken review scores: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=4170835

 

Again, your view of innovation is ridiculously broad. Name me a game where you absorb souls and then assign each soul to one of four buttons so that you can summon them in the blink of an eye, each one with their own unique abilities set in the context of a celtic murder mystery. Folklore is massive innovation.

Technically yes, LBP did somethings different from others. But technically so does Deadspace which is incredibly derivative, and nobody is ever going to say that Deadspace was an innovative game. A high quality evolution of the 3rd person shooter/horror genre yes, innovative no.

LBP is at best an slight evolution of existing concepts and technology, not a revolutionary innovation that will change gaming for a generation or more.

Mario 64 created a genre, every 3d platformer for years and many to this day are just Mario 64 clones or highly derivative of Mario 64 and it's concepts and tech are used to this day. People evolved what was present in Mario 64 to modern games and tech. LBP isn't going to spawn a genre, and it's already an evolution of ideas so nobody is going to evolve LBP concepts ten years from now.

Your idea of innovation is way off, it's incredibly broad and by using your concept of innovation you can make incredibly formulaic games sound innovative. The fact that you would Say Mario 64 isn't innovative but LBP is would immidiately disqualify you from arguing anything because of the insanity of it, but since the argument is with you it persists.



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The_vagabond7 said:

Again, your view of innovation is ridiculously broad. Name me a game where you absorb souls and then assign each soul to one of four buttons so that you can summon them in the blink of an eye, each one with their own unique abilities set in the context of a celtic murder mystery. Folklore is massive innovation.

Technically yes, LBP did somethings different from others. But technically so does Deadspace which is incredibly derivative, and nobody is ever going to say that Deadspace was an innovative game. A high quality evolution of the 3rd person shooter/horror genre yes, innovative no.

LBP is at best an slight evolution of existing concepts and technology, not a revolutionary innovation that will change gaming for a generation or more.

Mario 64 created a genre, every 3d platformer for years and many to this day are just Mario 64 clones or highly derivative of Mario 64 and it's concepts and tech are used to this day. People evolved what was present in Mario 64 to modern games and tech. LBP isn't going to spawn a genre, and it's already an evolution of ideas so nobody is going to evolve LBP concepts ten years from now.

Your idea of innovation is way off, it's incredibly broad and by using your concept of innovation you can make incredibly formulaic games sound innovative. The fact that you would Say Mario 64 isn't innovative but LBP is would immidiately disqualify you from arguing anything because of the insanity of it, but since the argument is with you it persists.

 

by that you are telling us nothing innovations.

wii motion controls are not new either but nintendo was the first make it popular and put it into a console same for touch screen... it being in phones and pdas for years.

 



Guess it is slowing things down for their sales.



4 ≈ One

vlad321 said:
windbane said:
again, which one of those games in the pointless list includes a platforming level editor that lets you share individual pieces as well as levels on a youtube-like server?

your only innovation from Mario 64 was a rotating camera. I gotta tell ya, God of War did pretty well with a fixed camera. so it didin't change all future 3D games, just adding another method to use. Even if you say that's so innovative, it's only 1 element of the overall game. it's not like a new genre was created, and yet the game is still considered innovative.

Just tell me what game is like LBP, especially on consoles, but even on PC. You list a lot of games with level editors but that's not the innovative aspect, it's the implementation. As per my definition, found on dictionary.com, using a different method is an innovative activity.

 

Again, have you played Spore? Also to that list you wanna add the following stuff:

Oh man, by that definition EVERY level editor is brand new and innovative stuff! Look at WC3 for example. What other editor lets you create specific maps where they can be TD, or AOS, or Melee, or RPG, or a bunch of toeher such stuff? Which don't even have to be shared since you just join a game and it auto DLs them for you?

 

See what I did there? Your attempts at specializng it are just sad to be honest.

 

Huh?  Starcraft, which is where the WC3 level editor came from, was very innovative!  You are arguing against vagabond now.

Not everything is innovative, just new things, and a platforming console game with an emphasis on sharing levels and even third party contributions is quite a new thing.



The_vagabond7 said:

Again, your view of innovation is ridiculously broad. Name me a game where you absorb souls and then assign each soul to one of four buttons so that you can summon them in the blink of an eye, each one with their own unique abilities set in the context of a celtic murder mystery. Folklore is massive innovation.

Technically yes, LBP did somethings different from others. But technically so does Deadspace which is incredibly derivative, and nobody is ever going to say that Deadspace was an innovative game. A high quality evolution of the 3rd person shooter/horror genre yes, innovative no.

LBP is at best an slight evolution of existing concepts and technology, not a revolutionary innovation that will change gaming for a generation or more.

Mario 64 created a genre, every 3d platformer for years and many to this day are just Mario 64 clones or highly derivative of Mario 64 and it's concepts and tech are used to this day. People evolved what was present in Mario 64 to modern games and tech. LBP isn't going to spawn a genre, and it's already an evolution of ideas so nobody is going to evolve LBP concepts ten years from now.

Your idea of innovation is way off, it's incredibly broad and by using your concept of innovation you can make incredibly formulaic games sound innovative. The fact that you would Say Mario 64 isn't innovative but LBP is would immidiately disqualify you from arguing anything because of the insanity of it, but since the argument is with you it persists.

 

1. Folklore was innovative, and has one of the best uses of Sixaxis with flOw and Warhawk, but there's not much that will change the genre. You are helping my point with LBP. Those abilities you assign are all very similar except that some won't work against some guys for abritrary reasons to force you to use whatever ability you get in the next area to kill the next room's guy to kill the next so you can beat the boss. Rinse and repeat. I hope that's not emulated. That's as cute as saying Too Human has 1,000,000 combinations of weapons/armor or whatever it is, when most of them don't change the gameplay. Was Folklore innovative? Yes. Was it genre defining? No.

2. Ok, deadspace wasn't innovative, even if they had some unique things like putting the health on a character's back. Not seeing how that applys to LBP, which does innovate. I would say that a Sci Fi Survival Horror is rare, though.

3. I think LBP does lead to great things. All game types should have a LBP.

4. This has been said many times before, but Mario 64 did not create a genre. Weren't you the one comparing it to Doom, which defined a genre but did not create it? Mario 64 wasn't even the first 3-D Mario Platformer!

5. I never said Mario 64 wasn't innovative, I merely compared the amount of innovation to LBP. I think they both innovated, and my earlier point was that you don't have to be the first to do a genre to innovate within it.



windbane said:
Electro General said:
BTFeather55 said:
burgerstein said:

Groucho said:
Mario 64 doesn't predate Crash, bud. It made innovations, but not any moreso than Crash did. And Perfect Dark? Exactly what genre do you think Perfect Dark defined?

Dude, are you mental? I wouldn't even consider Crash to have 3D gameplay compared to Super Mario 64, regardless of release date, Crash was just 2D platforming with a z axis thrown in. SM64 was pretty much the first real 3D platformer. Seriously, play Crash 1 then try Super Mario 64, and tell me which one feels more like a 2D platformer. It's Crash Bandicoot. It was the logical extension of platform games, Mario gave us something different.

 

Jumping Flash! and Tomb Raider were out before Mario 64.

Tomb raider was originally a sega saturn exclusive.

 

 

Crash was definitely a 3-D platformer. Just because the path was narrow didn't mean you couldn't move on x, y, and z axis. But yeah, Mario 64 came out first.

However, Jumping Flash definitely came out before Mario 64. It was one of my favorite PS1 games early on.

I'd forgotten that Tomb Raider was on the Saturn first. That's hilarious...

Hah, turns out Crash came out in the US a month before Mario 64.  that's funny. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3D_platformer#Third_dimension