- Story-specific gameplay, which is about features that are very story-related, but it's not optional and impacts the gameplay heavily. One example is Planescape: Torment's main character, the Nameless One, an 'immortal' which loses his identity and memory every times he dies. When the player(in control of Nameless One) dies, he doesn't lose the game, but he re-awakens with his entire memory removed. What better way to

  

 

The problem is that doesn't actually explain immortality. It simply demostrates it. If you wanted to go into the philosophies of immortality, it's impliactions, nature, etc then you would need an in depth dialogue scene to explain these things. You can only demonstrate things through gameplay. To explain them you need to show it through cutscenes. The ending conversation and monologue of MGS2 couldn't have been explained through a cutscene because it was trying to impart something specific and knowledge thus language based in nature.

Thread over?

http://www.vgchartz.com/forum/thread.php?id=27558

Torillian said: Words Of Wisdom said: Also, a lot of people (including myself) want to see more work done on the in-game models so that it's not painful to go back to the game after a cutscene. But as I've read MGS4 uses the ingame engine for its cutscenes, so you shouldn't have to worry about the difference in game models for this particular case. For the other issues, well then just skip over it, if all you want is to play the game. I have no problems with that and don't really mind if people hate cutscenes, but badmouthing a game for having cutscenes, when it is clearly what the fans of the series wanted, seems pointless. If you want to make MGS4 without cutscenes and piss off all the MGS fans, be my guest.

Neat.  I'm expecting more from this generation than past ones in that area.  It was just a nitpick of mine to go with the current theme of problems with cutscenes.

I don't mind people who hate cutscenes.  I don't mind people who love cutscenes.  I like a balanced approach where the developer regards cutscenes as a tool to improve the game and not mindless filler or use in order to tell the story of the movie they wished they'd made.

Also, I could make a game like MGS4 however I choose not to.

shio said: Words Of Wisdom said: Profcrab said: Maybe Kojima should start painting from the corner to the door instead of from the door to the corner? Bioware's games have been solid within the games themselves. Including all the backstory for every character and every situation is very, very difficult to pull of and sometimes irresponsible to do it. Also, bringing up other games that may not have great storytelling doesn't help your case. Pro-tip! Don't compare Bioware to other developers. It makes too many of them look bad. It also makes many of them look great. Bioware is nowhere near as good as their early years, their writing is severely lacking. Many developers have already surpassed them: Valve, Obsidian, CDProjekt, Turbine, Telltale are some of those.

Obsidian Entertainment (or Bioware Jr. as I like to think of them) couldn't surpass a plate of dogpoo.  KotOR2 is firm proof of this.  It was like they fired all the writers and hired retarded monkeys with plungers to script a clone of KotOR1 which would work in a world without KotOR1, but playing through an entire game with the "Haven't I done this before?  Haven't I met you before?" feeling is lame.

Meh....agree to disagree I suppose is the best option here then. I will be looking forward to your brand of fortune cookies though, you have a first day purchase right here ^^

Profcrab said: DTG said: rocketpig said: Profcrab said: rocketpig said: I think my biggest disappointment with this is Kojma's desire to continue to make a game into a movie instead of blending the two a la Mass Effect. I don't mind cutscenes but developers need to learn to take advantage of the medium's strengths better. Instead of locking the player out of the story (like cinema does), welcome the player into the scene and give him/her options for movement, conversation, and manipulating the scene. After all, the industry is referred to as interactive media, right? In many ways, Japanese game designers seem to pursue the same line of reasoning as anime. They have an idea for a really far out there story and they do everything to make it work instead of modifying the story to make it work. Cutscenes are how they still push their story concept even when it wouldn't fit the gameplay of that game. 90 minutes sounds like an exaggeration but even 20 minutes is too long for a video game and I can easily see Kojima including cutscenes that are 20-30 minutes. I just think he is way too high on his own ideas and is suffering from the George Lucas problem where no one can tell him "No!". Think of all the extra work that could be done on the game that might have gone into cutscenes. The George Lucas point is a valid one. Someone needs to hire an assitant with a hammer to follow both of them around and whack them in the head whenever they try to do something insanely stupid with a quality franchise. It's quite pathetic when developers adher to the demands of fans. We've seen it happen with MGS3 where Kojima listened to complaining players and compromised the story to make it more accomodating for the public. A true artist doesn't compromise his vision regardless of what anyone around him says because if he does it will no longer be true to his original creative intentions. Fan service is what destroys any artistic ambition in games. As for you commenting on the industry being interactive, have you forgotten that there is near 20 hours of gameplay? MGS has always been known to be a cinematic experience first and a game second and I'm baffled why people would be upset and surprised by this news considering MGS' track record. I've only said that Kojima is a poor story teller, not a bad game designer. MGS4 will probably have solid gameplay and be fun inspite of the cutscenes, but people make Kojima out to be this grand video game visionary and he's not. He's a good game developer that isn't a great story teller but is so thoroughly convinced that he is that he indulges himself in extensive cutscenes that tell overcomplicated stories. MGS has not always been that way. MGS2 was where the true self indulgence began.

 I suppose that depends on whether you consider Kojima a visionary game designer/artist or not. Those who do would agree that his long and complex methods of storytelling are ingenius and integral to what he is trying to achieve. Those who consider his storytelling bad would obviously be upset, but I think the huge fanbase of the franchise and huge fanbase of MGS2 alone validates him as more than a terrible writer. There have been numerous essays written on his games, if you read them perhaps it will help you see the depth his games actually have. Many non hardcore fans of the series mistake his storytelling as simply being for entertainment value yet taking itself too seriously, but in actuality there is an enormous amount of research, meaning and depth that goes into giving his plots a layered message.

I respect that many may disagree with that, but nonetheless it doesn't invalidate my and others opinions about him being a brilliant writer.

shio said: Words Of Wisdom said: Profcrab said: Maybe Kojima should start painting from the corner to the door instead of from the door to the corner? Bioware's games have been solid within the games themselves. Including all the backstory for every character and every situation is very, very difficult to pull of and sometimes irresponsible to do it. Also, bringing up other games that may not have great storytelling doesn't help your case. Pro-tip! Don't compare Bioware to other developers. It makes too many of them look bad. It also makes many of them look great. Bioware is nowhere near as good as their early years, their writing is severely lacking. Many developers have already surpassed them: Valve, Obsidian, CDProjekt, Turbine, Telltale are some of those.

 Obsidian certianly hasn't passed them, but many other developers have gotten better over the years.  Bioware certainly isn't the only great storytelling company out there.

 What is a shame is that early RPGs generally had more story and a greater area to roam.  Of course, the problem with that now is that you just can't expect developers to make that same sort of lengthy story and large area and have it look as good as games do today.  I don't think Bioware became a worse developer, I think they just had to make games that were smaller games.  Think about Interplay's Fallout and Bethesda's Daggerfall.  Those games were alot simpler to make and had no audio dialog.  They also covered massive distances.   I think Bioware did a great job with Mass Effect in making a compact story.  I think KoTOR was a little better but I don't see Bioware really slipping at all.

I guess I should have clicked on this thread earlier... Too much to go through... Anybody remember Xenosaga? The first 3 HOURS were strings of cut-scenes with very little playing in between. That game turned out pretty good too. So 90 minutes is long, but, meh. It all depends on what is included in those 90 minutes.

Frankly, as a MGS fan, this gets me excited in one way and worried in another.

Excited: I kinda like the extra length it'll add to the experience, and I don't mind setting through boring cutscenes for the occasional intersting tidbit. Very few MGS cutscenes in the past have been boring, except for MGS2.

Worried: Critics literally hate stuff like this. Especially gamespot. They usually aren't that into the game in the first place, and dislike convoluted stories and large portions of the story relying on way too much verbage and length in cutscenes. This issue will drop the gamerankings of MGS4, I guarntee it.

Profcrab said: Obsidian certianly hasn't passed them, but many other developers have gotten better over the years. Bioware certainly isn't the only great storytelling company out there. What is a shame is that early RPGs generally had more story and a greater area to roam. Of course, the problem with that now is that you just can't expect developers to make that same sort of lengthy story and large area and have it look as good as games do today. I don't think Bioware became a worse developer, I think they just had to make games that were smaller games. Think about Interplay's Fallout and Bethesda's Daggerfall. Those games were alot simpler to make and had no audio dialog. They also covered massive distances. I think Bioware did a great job with Mass Effect in making a compact story. I think KoTOR was a little better but I don't see Bioware really slipping at all.

Fallout also used the Infinity Engine (as did Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, Arcanum, and a few more) which made things considerably easier.