Nah, there's a reason why these games are named the way they are, if you dont play them, you wouldnt understand and explaining to you would be a post full of spoilers and some things are better experienced in person rather than read about by someone else.

If you arent a fan, then why should you care in the first place? If you didnt bother playing the original FF7, there's no point in playing any of the remake series games.

I originally wasnt 100% sure whether someone should play the original or just jump into the remake before I played Remake but now that I've completely finished FFVII Remake Intergrade, I have 100% confidence that you need to play the original FF7 otherwise some of the scenes wont make sense (they literally showcase the scenes from the OG FF7, didnt even bother remaking them , the same blocky character designs lol).

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Your second paragraph is full of mistakes and is proof you have no idea what you are talking about - whether its Final Fantasy or any other RPG series you mentioned in this thread.

Atelier is not a Bandai Namco franchise - its a Koei Tecmo series.

The Legend of Heroes is not a Bandai Namco franchise - its a Nihon Falcom series.

You dont even know the people who made them so of course you wouldnt care enough to do something simple like searching up release dates and the order of games in both story and release order.

Anyways speaking of the Legend of Heroes games, I've played Legend of of Heroes 3, 4 and 5 on PSP (known as the gagharv trilogy) and I played Legend of Heroes 6 (Trails in the Sky FC) on Steam (planning to replay it so I can do the SC and TC back to back)

The Legend of Heroes series is divided into different sub series.

The Legend of Heroes 1-2 is part of the Dragon Slayer series

The Legend of Heroes 3-5 is part of the Gagharv series

(They dropped the numbering after Trails in the Sky FC (which was Legend of Heroes 6 originally).

The Legend of Heroes 6-21 (technically 19 since two of the games are spinoffs) is part of the Trails series

Each sub series is separate from each other world/timeline wise. 

I'm not familiar with Atelier series as much however from what I asked and looked up - its the same as the Legend of Heroes series where there are sub series (such as the Ryza trilogy, Arland series and Dusk series - meaning they are all self contained and not exactly connected).

Speaking of Atelier, I'm going to start with Atelier Ryza 1 soon and will get 2 and 3 after that.

I got most of the other Atelier games on Switch, PS4 and Steam.

This 100%.

I looked up Atelier few months ago since I never played any of the games and I'm interested in getting into the series, there's a lot of places that list detailed summaries and I've also asked other communities.

I'm gonna start on Atelier Ryza 1 on Switch sometime after I'm done with my current game I'm playing on my Switch (Dragon Ball Z Kakarot lol).

Sure, I can quickly explain. The two games released so far in the new Final Fantasy VII trilogy all have the same number in the name: VII, or 7, or Seven. And the two have a word in the name that mean practically the same thing to most people. That's confusing.

When Persona 5 was rereleased as Persona 5 Royal, simply adding that extra word indicated that it's either the same game plus extra content or a remaster of the game. Same thing with Mario Kart 8 and Mario Kart 8 Deluxe. Advance Wars and Advance Wars 1+2: Reboot Camp. But when you put a new word after "Remake" like Intergrade, then it's like, what more could you add after already remaking the game? You mean the complete re-imagining from the ground up game you just put out wasn't complete?

Remake and Rebirth dont have the same meaning.

And yea the story isnt completed in one game.

My bad, you're right. It's Koei-Tecmo. Both companies have tons of games on Switch that go on sale pretty often, and Bamco was the first one that came to mind. What does that matter to someone who isn't already a fan of those series or doesn't dedicate a ton of headspace to gaming though? That's my point. I haven't cared enough to do enough homework to decide if I want to spend money and time on these games, and there is no clear entry point as a newcomer outside of release date. And release date isn't everything, because a newer game in a series can make older games irrelevant.

By the way, I've played the original FFVII and I have Advent Children on the DVD shelf. I remember all of the major story beats pretty well. You're assuming that I'm not a fan, and you're suddenly turning into the FFVII gatekeeper on whose opinion gets to be relevant based on series knowledge. Maybe I'm just not as big of fan as you are, but my opinions are still as valid as yours.

"And the two have a word in the name that mean practically the same thing to most people"

That's what I said. I didn't say that Remake and Rebirth have the same meaning. I'm saying that they have the same connotation to most people.You can argue about how true fans know better all you want. I'm saying that it's the perception of the titles to people who aren't already big fans.

I also said, "The two games released so far in the new Final Fantasy VII trilogy". In other words, I said that the story isn't completed in one game, so what is your point? If I said that milk comes from bovine beasts, you'd reply to point out that it in facts come from cows, perhaps even goats.

I've always known that you are a huge FF fan because you always have chocobos as your avatar, but you really need to stop taking this discussion so seriously. I'm not even trying to gaslight you here: it really feels like you're just looking to argue.

You dont do research or look up something before buying? Like watching a review? Especially in this day and age in gaming lol.

"I haven't cared enough to do enough homework to decide if I want to spend money and time on these games"

Already answered this question. I always do research and look up something before buying. I said that I haven't cared enough to do the research for the Atelier games. More work than I've been in the mood for.

As far as the Atelier series goes, you can start with any of the games in their sub series and just play the games in the sub series to follow the story in that specific sub series - most of the games have been remade and available across the modern platforms.

-Salburg (Marie, Elie, Lilie)

-Gramand (Judie, Viorate)

-Iris (Iris 1, 2 and 3)

-Mana (Mana Khemia, Mana Khemia 2)

-Arland (Rorona, Totori, Meruru, Lulua)

-Dusk (Ayesha, Escha, Shallie)

-Mysterious (Sophie, Firis, Lydie, Sophie 2)

-Secret (Ryza 1, Ryza 2, Ryza 3)

-Resleriana (Forgotten Alchemy, The Red Alchemist, Yumia (new game coming))

I'm starting with Ryza (Secret) because apparently its a good one to get into as a beginner because it doesnt have a time limit like the games that came prior to it. I just want to soak in and take my time as a beginner before I jump into the older games.

Awesome, thanks for the info. If I decide to jump in, then I'll start there. I like to play at my own place as well, so that does seem like a good entry point.

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I disagree that a newer game can make a older game irrelevant unless its a 1:1 remake or a remaster.

If you play games with the intention of understanding or following the lore or story, you wouldnt think that.

Thats like saying oh ya, I'm going to watch Star Wars Episode VII/VIII/IX because they are new, no point in watching Episodes 1-6 because they are old and irrelevant - or in this example, you cant play Ryza 3 without playing Ryza 1 and 2, you'll be lost and wont enjoy the plot.

Madden '25 makes Madden '24 irrelevant. Splatoon 3 makes Splatoon 2 mostly irrelevant. Most players move on to the latest version of fighting games like Smash and Tekken; of course a small section of the community stick with the previous release, but most people move on to the newest game. There are genres besides JRPGs with continued plots, you know. I don't know why you're trying to use a movie series as an example when we're talking about video games as if those two mediums are a 1:1 comparison.

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Your opinion isnt even an opinion to begin with in regards to the actual game, its just false assumption due to how the games are named rather than the actual content in the games.

Cant really give an opinion to a game if you havent played it.

And you're the only one who keeps bringing up the actual game instead of how they are named. I've stuck with my point. Regardless, I don't need to have completed a playthrough of the game to know how the game plays. You yourself mentioned video reviews. Are you saying they're worthless now?

Your words

"Addendum to #1: Squeenix strikes again with the idiotic naming scheme of their biggest titles. Calling it FFVII Remake? Cool, no problem. It may be a completely different gameplay genre with a copious amount of new elements added to the story, but you still know what it is. Calling the next one in the sequel Rebirth? Sounds too much like Remake, too easy to forget that it's a different game instead of being the same thing. I still have to stop and remember which one came first because they sound so interchangeable. And that was before I realized that they weren't the same thing. And what is an "Intergrade"? Is it a sequel to Remake that I need to play after Remake or Rebirth?"

If you think Intergrade is a sequel to Remake, either you were never interested in the games because its not a turned based RPG like the original or you've been living under a rock this whole time to miss all the advertising/discussions over the years.

Then I guess people who aren't hardcore FF fans are all molemen that can't make it past this gate that you're keeping, lol. I know what Intergrade is. It's called speaking from the standpoint of a layman though. It went right over your head.

Then those people should do research before jumping into a series that has more than one game.

Previews, Reviews, news articles, etc - we live in the age of information.

Nobody goes to the store , look at a box and then think "Oh ya, this looks good" anymore.

But plenty of people look at a game or a game series, get intimidated or turned off by convoluted titles that seem to be an inside thing that only the series' dedicated fans get, and then decide to come back to it later or look elsewhere. And flag-waving fans like you that think they have to die on that series' hill and run checks on everyone to see if they belong don't help.

No, my response about the story isnt complete is in regards to your last sentence of your previous post. Thats my point.

But you said the same thing I did. Which was pointless.

And no, if you told me milk comes from bovine beasts, I wouldnt reply "it came from cows, perhaps goats". Why? Because I had no idea what that word meant and would google it.

Infact from googling it, Bovine beasts are cattle animals. A goat isnt a Bovine beast, its a Caprine beast.

I got all that from doing research.

See how doing some research helps, just like doing research on your questions about Atelier, Final Fantasy and The Legend of Heroes - can easily be resolved if you actually did some research.

"Could I take the extra time to go to Wikipedia or Reddit to figure it out? Sure, but I don't care enough to do that."

Yeah, I said just that earlier. This issue you have with me could be resolved if you actually had some reading comprehension.

Uhh, werent you the one who quoted me to begin with to argue about the naming scheme of the games?

Nope, didn't quote you to argue. I was actually agreeing with you when I first quoted with you, and I figured that it would be a good starting point on what I had to say.

I'm responding to your claims which have a lot of mistakes, mistakes that could have easily been avoided if you did research or if you are following the games from the get go.

Outside of saying Atelier and Legends of Heroes games come from Bamco, what other mistakes? Before you mention Intergrade, let me remind you again that I wasn't seriously asking the question for you or anyone to answer. I was making the point that it's the question that comes to mind for more casual folks.

I dont follow every single game franchise so I do research before I jump into a series I'm not familiar with.

Me too. I just hadn't felt like doing enough research on the Atelier games to decide where to jump in. There are a lot of games with the name "Atelier" in the title, and I don't realistically have the time and money to play them all. I'm not approaching from the standpoint of "I'll get to them all eventually."

Your example Atelier series especially.

I've never played a single game in the series and I saw the number of games in the series and it felt overwhelming however I did research as a person who is interested in getting into the series.

I did research instead of going on a online forum to complain about the naming scheme of why its not numbered Atelier 1, Atelier 2, etc.

If you dont follow the games from the beginning, you do research.

If you arent willing to do research, then why are you complaining?

Neither did I; I just used Atelier as an example. I came to complain about FFVII Remake and Rebirth. Didn't realize that you would get this bent out of shape about it.

Basil said:

Edit: We're in a discussion forum talking about games, if you think my conversation is serious , maybe you should be serious too and actually do some research or better yet...skip all that nonsense since its pointless to argue and just play Remake Intergrade, forget the name schemes, doubts about which came first or not, as a fellow fan of the Final Fantasy series, I recommend just playing Remake Intergrade and go from there. Good luck.

"I haven't cared enough to do enough homework to decide if I want to spend money and time on these games"

Already answered this question. I always do research and look up something before buying. I said that I haven't cared enough to do the research for the Atelier games. More work than I've been in the mood for.

Madden '25 makes Madden '24 irrelevant. Splatoon 3 makes Splatoon 2 mostly irrelevant. Most players move on to the latest version of fighting games like Smash and Tekken; of course a small section of the community stick with the previous release, but most people move on to the newest game. There are genres besides JRPGs with continued plots, you know. I don't know why you're trying to use a movie series as an example when we're talking about video games as if those two mediums are a 1:1 comparison.

And you're the only one who keeps bringing up the actual game instead of how they are named. I've stuck with my point. Regardless, I don't need to have completed a playthrough of the game to know how the game plays. You yourself mentioned video reviews. Are you saying they're worthless now?

Then I guess people who aren't hardcore FF fans are all molemen that can't make it past this gate that you're keeping, lol. I know what Intergrade is. It's called speaking from the standpoint of a layman though. It went right over your head.

But plenty of people look at a game or a game series, get intimidated or turned off by convoluted titles that seem to be an inside thing that only the series' dedicated fans get, and then decide to come back to it later or look elsewhere. And flag-waving fans like you that think they have to die on that series' hill and run checks on everyone to see if they belong don't help.

"Could I take the extra time to go to Wikipedia or Reddit to figure it out? Sure, but I don't care enough to do that."

Yeah, I said just that earlier. This issue you have with me could be resolved if you actually had some reading comprehension.

Nope, didn't quote you to argue. I was actually agreeing with you when I first quoted with you, and I figured that it would be a good starting point on what I had to say.

Outside of saying Atelier and Legends of Heroes games come from Bamco, what other mistakes? Before you mention Intergrade, let me remind you again that I wasn't seriously asking the question for you or anyone to answer. I was making the point that it's the question that comes to mind for more casual folks.

Neither did I; I just used Atelier as an example. I came to complain about FFVII Remake and Rebirth. Didn't realize that you would get this bent out of shape about it.

No, I said YOU are taking this too seriously. Like, "Dude you must be fun at parties" serious. You're like Dave Bautista's character* in Guardian of the Galaxy who is so unaware of his ability to take a joke that he thinks he can jump up and catch it as it goes over his head. It was a lighthearted jab at Squeenix's naming conventions, but you turned it into this. Maybe VGC should add a sarcasm font so I can use that next time.

Yep, I'm too lazy to go look up the character's name. Go ahead and grill me for that, and tell me how I must not have ever seen a Marvel movie, and that you've watched hour-long video essays on how Groot's philosophy on existentialism could be the savior of the modern Western world. And while you're giving yourself ulcers over it, I'll be living my best life.

If how the fanbase responds to a game is the reason why the remakes are ruined for you, thats a you problem.

Sales numbers and how a fanbase responds shouldnt affect your decision making especially if you are a fan of the series, how the game plays and portrays itself (visually, music, etc) should be the only factors  that should decide whether a game is good or not.

Speaking of fan service, there's nothing wrong with fan service, Advent Children, your example was made as a result of fan service, its not a grammy awarded movie or was made to be some awe inspiring film, its made to be a medium of fan service for those that like Final Fantasy VII and it accomplished that despite not being a perfect film.

I mean just because you dont like it, doesnt mean everyone is gonna think the same as you. For an example, I dont care what the fanbase thinks about the lore/story, I like it and that is all that matters to me.

Square Enix decided to make this a sequel/follow up to the original FFVII and made it a 3 part game series and I feel thats whats costing them the sales but it honestly doesnt bother me as long as I get to play the games.

I disagree a lot on the bolded. As a big fan of FFVII, a game which I think had an incredible story and medium defining impact, I want to see a film at least attempt to reflect this legacy and strive for a similarly high bar. When ambition is sunken to the levels of "fan service" you are certainly not going to see anything close to that quality emerge and often coherent story telling falls to wayside. Advent children isn't just flawed, its a bad film IMO. I understand that some people are just happy to spend more time with the world and characters they love, or to see cool action sequences but I had higher expectations and don't think its good filmaking or storytelling.

Widely though you misunderstood my point. What I'm saying is that the VII series is treated by its creators with the same level of convolution as your explanation, and it lacks some important story telling foundations that would make it even better in my opinion. For example the whole Z/Aerith arc in Rebirth was a complete stain on the actual narrative momentum of the game and it seems mostly orientated around fan service without particular care to attaching meaning to Zack because it assumes the fandom to already to have a deep investment in this character which you only get to know through a spinoff game that most people have not played. Creative decisions like this feel like they're made for a 10% of the audience but they harm overall quality. I'm just highly critical of what I consider good and bad creative decisions and how they impact overall audience impressions of a stand alone body of work.

A google search led me to RPGSite and the Wiki which pretty much helped me compile that list - took me like less than 5 minutes

Good for you

You cant compare sports and fighting games to story focused RPGs in that argument.

My movie example fits the bill because we are talking about story centric media.

When I first said that newer games in a series make older games irrelevant, I never specified story-centric media. You applied that goalpost. You've been trying to strawman me this whole time. It's gotten old already.

Yes, the actual game is what matters, not the naming scheme. If you had played the games, you would have understood the reasoning for the names of the games.

Video reviews help you decide whether a game is worth buying due to its performance, amount of content, etc, does not include spoilers or plot points that explain major aspects of the story.

It matters to people who haven't yet played the games and aren't already fans of the series. You seem to have a really hard time grasping this.

Thank you for the explanation of a video review. Now I will explain to you what connotation is: an idea or feeling that a word invokes in addition to its literal or primary meaning. Maybe one day, you will understand this concept.

Except no one asks if they should play Remake then Remake Intergrade. No one asks if they should play Persona 5 and then Persona 5 Royal.

https://www.reddit.com/r/JRPG/comments/15ciruf/ff7_remake_vs_intergrade/

https://www.reddit.com/r/FinalFantasyVII/comments/1e117rq/what_is_the_difference_between_remake_and_remake/

https://www.reddit.com/r/FFVIIRemake/comments/15h7ihz/is_it_necessary_to_play_intergrade/

https://www.quora.com/Should-you-play-Persona-5-before-Persona-5-Royal

A google search led me to these questions that you said no one asks. Took me less than two minutes. You should really bother to do some research dude. That's just plain lazy of you.

I honestly dont care if these people play the games or not. Do research like a normal person should, if you cant do a simple google search or ask a question but complain instead, then thats a personal problem.

Says the guy who couldn't be bothered to see if people ask about Intergrade and P5 vs. P5R

So you admit you are unwilling to put in any effort and instead complain, wasting everyone's time.

For someone who doesn't have time to waste, you sure are putting a lot of it and effort into this. You don't seem to have anything better to do.

Your post complained about the name structure, nowhere in my post you quoted did I say anything about the naming structure. Maybe take your advice and learn reading comprehension.

Which is why I said that it's an addendum to your point. Do you know what an addendum is? Since you're too lazy to research, I'll Google it for you:

1. : a thing added : addition. 2. : a supplement to a book. often used in plural but singular in construction.

Then again, you're the guy who arbitrarily decided that I can only be talking about story-centric games when I said that newer games make older ones irrelevant to fit your narrative in this argument that you apparently don't have time to apply reading comprehension skills for.

No casual person would ever ask "Should I play remake or remake intergrade"

I've seen "Should I play Remake or Rebirth" which I can sympathize with.

https://www.reddit.com/r/FinalFantasyVII/comments/1iw5gzu/should_i_start_with_remake_i_have_onhand_or/

LOL. BasilZero, a real man of the people.

You came to complain about games you never played to begin with. Congrats I guess.....

You got butthurt because you thought I was trying to argue with you, and now you've backed yourself into a corner. Great job.

You came into a thread complaining about two games you have not played.

You brought up two game series you never played and complained about them because they had so many games.

????

I dont watch hour long video essays or complain about stuff I havent played or watched.

I actually play games and watch movies before I critique them.

The only thing I complained about is the naming convention of the FFVII trilogy. I just said that I haven't bothered to get into Trails or Atelier yet because I haven't felt like figuring out where to start. I can see how that can sound like a complaint to someone incredibly tightly wound up like one of those coil toys from the 90s.

I haven't offered a single critique about any actual games themselves, just the titles of two games. READING. COMPREHENSION. SKILLS.