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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Do game devs need to respect our time better? Can shorter games be better?

 

Do devs respect our time enough?

Yes, no problems 11 37.93%
 
No, there is a problem 11 37.93%
 
Not like they used to. 6 20.69%
 
No opinion/comments. 1 3.45%
 
Total:29
SvennoJ said:
LegitHyperbole said:

I totally agree the last of us 2 is far too long even though it's great and kind of gets a pass but it dragged and Ragnorok is brutal because it's so long and bland at the same time unlike GoW '18 which was perfeclty sized and paced but surely you can see in the opposite direction to and see that those games are too short (if they are full price) doesn't matter about replay cause some people may not want to replay. 

First off, are you sure these games are that short on the first pkaythrough? Like I can beat Sekiro now in 4 hours but that game took me 100+ hours to beat, main + sides the first time. 

If not then how can you justify spending full price on games that short, regardless of replay. What if you were to only play it once, would you see that as a minus? People perceived value differently. I for one can't justify full price for games at all anymore even if I know I'll spend weeks on it and love it before hand and I have become obsessed with finding cheap indies that have massive fun factor that exceeds their low price but I end up spending a lot on those games cause of all the failures I come across but man, Refunct is a fun game with great replay value, infact the whole idea of the fun of the game is knowing how to beat it fast enough as it's a very simple game, even visually basic game that's 45 minutes the first run and 4 minutes at like top speed run. Yes you'll get more out of it than 45 minutes but it is priced accordingly at under 5 euro... 2.99 if I remember correctly and that's great value. To think that this could be priced at 70 euro and you'd be okay with it is mind boggling to me. 

I know I made this thread but perhaps I'm seeing the light a little when it's taken to this extreme. Last year I was so happy with Vampire Survivors releasing at 5 euro and ending up having 70 hours in it, it was so much fun and filled with content. I felt like I was stealing from the devs so I bought the DLC without any intention of playing them. 

Those are times from time to beat. Xenon 2 took me longer simply because the PC I played it on was slow lol. Which made it easier too of course. Prince of Persia was hard, took me much longer to finally beat it. However those games never put me to sleep like Ragnarok or grinding for materials and xp. Spiderman-2 also dragged on. (14 to 30 hours) Great gameplay but no desire to replay, while I loved replaying Infamous Second Son. That's already 10-15 hours and people complained it was short :/

I've always wanted a setting for games for length next to difficulty. Selecting story length instead of story difficulty. I don't want a piss easy game to enjoy the story, I want a story cut version. Reign in the enemy fodder, repetitive corridors, cull unnecessary mechanics and filler side quests. Declutter the world and map, I rather explore a more empty map with more valuable things to find than have something pop up every couple steps. Ghost of Tsushima became a drag because of all the repetitive extra content. A couple times is fun, then it becomes a chore to unclutter the map... Repairing became a drag in TW3, just an annoying mechanic. Plus I set the difficulty lower there to simplify the combat. Way way way too much loot fodder in that game.

But what if there's something important in there...

Loot drops started to feel like a punishment in TW3. You beat this area, now go clean it up :/ Am I a Witcher or a garbage collector lol.

Yet it depends on the game, Fallout 4 had a reason to collect fodder which I put to good use!


Same in TWD S&S, hoarder mode

But I did feel more like a scavenging game than horror/adventure. So many drawers and cabinets to open! At least TloU and RE8 don't let you open every single drawer and cabinet, 90% empty!


Hence I'm advocating for 'story cut' options for games. Even on the fly. You want to do more filler stuff, turn it on. You getting exhausted from all the loot and extra mechanics, turn it off. In PoE2 we now ignore most of the loot, just want to play, don't want to constantly compare and do the inventory puzzle. HZ FW I also played on lower difficulty, I never bothered with traps etc. That's my way nowadays to simplify games and remove all the bloat mechanics.

Without that available I'm replaying Tlou2 on 'story' difficulty to get through it faster. It makes for some chaotic shootouts since you're nearly invincible and have plenty ammo, which is fun too. (See how many you can take on without dying, run around round em up and shootout lol) I just can't fathom going full stealth through such a long game again. And I still didn't make it over the holidays. Although PoE2 is also to blame for that haha :) (Which is also full of bloat, but playing together is the price there, 111h on it already lol)

Games are like the extended version of LotR, plus all the extras and rewatch with commentary track. I watched all that and enjoyed it but perfectly fine with the theatrical version if ever rewatching again. We need a (optional) director's cut for games that make them shorter, more focused, more suitable for people with jobs and busy lives!

I'm at a stage in life where the value for money equation works the other way around. Time is worth more now than money. I rather spend more for shorter, more intense experiences than less for time I don't freely have to spend. Hence VR, where I still don't finish most games.

Compared to movies, $30 for a 4K blu-ray, running less than 2 hours, most I never rewatch. I could buy the cheaper blu-ray, stream it, but rather spend a bit more for the more impactful version. So $70 for a 5 hour game, perfectly fine to me, as long as it's a polished, memorable, replayable experience.

Anyway it's simple imo. If you (the publishers) want me to spend more money on games, make it possible for me to complete more games. Time is the limited factor for me. (Not saying money is unlimited, just time is more limited) As it is now, I'm also gravitating to indies, not for the price, for the shorter game lengths.

Transistor at 6 hours was perfect! I want to feel satisfied at the end of a game, wanting more. Not getting in a state where you either quit or take a long break (likely also quit) or push through to reach the end.

You make a great point about having a bloat slider, that's really smart and perhaps someday they will implement something like that, many will say it's up to you to ignore it but that's like saying there is right and wrong ways to play a game. 

However, I disagree with The Witcher 3s loot, if playing on the highest difficulty you need all that shit and to prepare master weapons you have to be Looting everything just like it is in Fallout 4 with the building. 

I fucking hate when they have empty drawers, it's happening in Alan Wake 2 and is properly annoying. 

But yes, Directors cuts need to be part of future updates like NG+ modes are. When FF7 remake finally finishes I hope for a directors cut of those three games to makes a concise experience more closely related to FF7 and by directors cut I actually mean cut, not adding stuff in like in films. Exactly to your point. 



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LegitHyperbole said:

You make a great point about having a bloat slider, that's really smart and perhaps someday they will implement something like that, many will say it's up to you to ignore it but that's like saying there is right and wrong ways to play a game. 

However, I disagree with The Witcher 3s loot, if playing on the highest difficulty you need all that shit and to prepare master weapons you have to be Looting everything just like it is in Fallout 4 with the building. 

I fucking hate when they have empty drawers, it's happening in Alan Wake 2 and is properly annoying. 

But yes, Directors cuts need to be part of future updates like NG+ modes are. When FF7 remake finally finishes I hope for a directors cut of those three games to makes a concise experience more closely related to FF7 and by directors cut I actually mean cut, not adding stuff in like in films. Exactly to your point. 

The thing is, I turned it down to easy, ignoring master weapons, ointments and what not. Why am I still getting all this loot fodder you 90% don't need for a condensed play through. TW3 was actually pretty good on 'easy' as you can take on much higher enemies and use other tactics than 'preparation'. Many fun fights with mini bosses, battles of attrition and evasion rather than preparation and tanking the boss.

Adjust loot to difficulty level, makes sense! For example condensed mode, no repair mechanic, no loot for repairs. Not that hard to do with filters. Extended combat mode vs condensed story mode.

As for FF, also battles that don't last for an hour or even longer lol.

And yeah, a filter on empty drawers / chests etc. I wouldn't mind a loot filter in PoE2 as well. (And for loot not to cover the screen during battle, we've died because we couldn't see anything anymore, screen covered in loot names which draw over top lol) Let me set minimums and types for loot I'm interested in, don't show if it doesn't meet the criteria. I do that 'scan' myself now, if base stats
Sure it's more settings again, which can be streamlined and then removes avoidable busy work and clutter while playing. Streamlined loot system as an option!
"Clean up aisle 3" feeling after a big battle needs to go. Don't waste my time with fodder.

Modern rpgs



SvennoJ said:
LegitHyperbole said:

You make a great point about having a bloat slider, that's really smart and perhaps someday they will implement something like that, many will say it's up to you to ignore it but that's like saying there is right and wrong ways to play a game. 

However, I disagree with The Witcher 3s loot, if playing on the highest difficulty you need all that shit and to prepare master weapons you have to be Looting everything just like it is in Fallout 4 with the building. 

I fucking hate when they have empty drawers, it's happening in Alan Wake 2 and is properly annoying. 

But yes, Directors cuts need to be part of future updates like NG+ modes are. When FF7 remake finally finishes I hope for a directors cut of those three games to makes a concise experience more closely related to FF7 and by directors cut I actually mean cut, not adding stuff in like in films. Exactly to your point. 

The thing is, I turned it down to easy, ignoring master weapons, ointments and what not. Why am I still getting all this loot fodder you 90% don't need for a condensed play through. TW3 was actually pretty good on 'easy' as you can take on much higher enemies and use other tactics than 'preparation'. Many fun fights with mini bosses, battles of attrition and evasion rather than preparation and tanking the boss.

Adjust loot to difficulty level, makes sense! For example condensed mode, no repair mechanic, no loot for repairs. Not that hard to do with filters. Extended combat mode vs condensed story mode.

As for FF, also battles that don't last for an hour or even longer lol.

And yeah, a filter on empty drawers / chests etc. I wouldn't mind a loot filter in PoE2 as well. (And for loot not to cover the screen during battle, we've died because we couldn't see anything anymore, screen covered in loot names which draw over top lol) Let me set minimums and types for loot I'm interested in, don't show if it doesn't meet the criteria. I do that 'scan' myself now, if base stats
Sure it's more settings again, which can be streamlined and then removes avoidable busy work and clutter while playing. Streamlined loot system as an option!
"Clean up aisle 3" feeling after a big battle needs to go. Don't waste my time with fodder.

Modern rpgs

Devs just love sliders for difficulty without taking these things into account, that's why I hate difficulty sliders and find my self going up or down through playthroughs cause all balance goes out the window. FromSoft do it right, they can balance their games so perfectly, Sekiro is thee most balanced game ever to be made and no difficulty slider. 

Like with FF7r, just sponge after sponge on hard mode that's zero fun to attempt but the game is too easy on easy and too spongey at times on normal. Adjust the stuff you said.

But I'll tell you one thing, you'll never see an "ARPG" without loot issues and limited inventory space, especially a free to play one that sells inventory space, regardless of them selling space it's too woven into the gameplay loop, grind, loot, dump or sell and grind again. Best you're going to get in POE2 is a loot filter like PoE1.  



It depends what you mean by "respect of our time". Really since there's been the popular dichotomy of playtime to $ invested by hour with the maximisation of these aspects, game devs and publishers in some cases have forced themselves into this trap of "easily" and cheaply made side content to affectively bloat and pad either their gigantic world maps and/or playtime by fear of the critics of being short games.

Essentially, I won't mind the matter of the bloat if not interacting with said bloat isn't gonna hamper the main game experience in much capacity.

Actually, there's plenty of good examples knowdays where the side content can be the most fun you can derive from an experience since it can be competently made and also add weight to either the main narrative or feedback into the gameplay loop meaningfully.
Also having a world design that's also worth exploring is something that's gotta be appreciated.

It's kinda why I personally really fell deep into the Xenoblade Chronicles series. The first game had a horrible side quests system(with neat ideas) for the most part. But Xenoblade X and Xenoblade 3 are prolly the among the few JRPGs in the landscape to actually make their side content and world exploration feel like an integral part of their experience instead of being a mandatory sets of mandates by executives oversees and such.

Funnily enough though, short RPGs can be just as engaging and engrossing than longer forms of them since having the possibility to encapsulate your whole experience into a "short" 20-30 hours experiences can be beneficial if the intention is to make the experience a concentration of one's game best elements without the need to add said amount of unnecessary fluff to the experience.



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@SvennoJ has some great points regarding loot. Managing loot often becomes quite tiring. For me it's mostly because I need to take some kind of a look at everything in order to decide what to do with it, whereas collecting loot is otherwise OK(-ish). But it's really annoying to have to take a look at dozens of pieces of equipment per fight, even if it's just a quick look. I feel like I'm growing more and more tired of managing of loot the more I do it, because 90 % of it I can do without much thinking, so it's just a waste of my time - exactly the topic of this thread. Game devs need to find ways to make managing loot more respective of our time. Just simple loot filters would already do a lot (Grim Dawn says high, and maybe other games of the same genre too!).

One of the reasons I eventually got fed up with Pokemon Go was inventory management. For the most part, it was very mindless, but there was no way to do it easily or to automate it. That game is possibly the worst offender on the inventory management front, because so much of the game involves inventory management compared to many other games.

Last edited by Zkuq - on 11 January 2025

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My sweet spot is 30-50 hours for a long game. Anything more than that is just too much (even though a lot of my playthroughs have been longer than that i.e. Dragon Quest VIII being 81 hours, Bravely Default II being 76 hours, Final Fantasy XV being 75 hours, etc)



Just to add from my newest thread which is very much related to this topic. Time savers for collectibles.

Nioh 2 has a Kodama sensor that'll ping these on the mini map
Stellar Blade has a very subtle haptic sensation when near essentials and a sensor for can collection 
Alan Wake 2 has a charm you can equip that marks every item and collectible on map when close
Astro Bot has the little birds you can purchase on replaying a level that will alert when close to bots and puzzles